JKK

This person just east of Corvallis (couple hours south of Portland) ticks all the boxes.
Total numismatic ignorance? Check. He thinks errors are 'misprinted' and thus that coins are evidently 'printed.'
Hideous photos? Check. In fact he'll go one better: Only one blurry photo of one side of ten coins.
Price insanity? Oh yeah. 'But it's a 1929 wheat back! It has to be worth hundreds with this misprint!'
Semiliteracy? Check. Can't even spell 'peso' even though the word is presumably physically present on the coins. Next we'll hear of the west Texas town of El Peso. No punctuation; probably doesn't know what it is.
Arrogance? 'No low ball offers I know how much they are really worth...'
All caps? Check! After all, everyone knows that yelling makes you more credible!

My complaint is not with giving a hosing to the abusive newbie who cops an attitude for no good reason, or asks a question and then whines when they don't like the answer. Give 'em both barrels in that case. My complaint is with the sarcastic troglodytes who think it makes them look cool and smart to give someone a hard time before they even do anything stoopid or hostile. It is the inability to put oneself in someone else's place, or worse yet, the refusal to bother to try. It's a very poor, petty, playground look. It's like if police stopped a car for simply driving, on the grounds that the driver was probably planning to speed at some point.
It's one thing to be blunt with the reality of a coin. If it's a parking lot coin, there is zero wrong with just saying "You're incorrect. It's not an error. It's damage. It's worth one penny." That's not sarcasm; that's an honest answer, and no nube should potty themselves because they got an honest answer that did not smooch their patoot. It's quite another to decide: I am over stoopid questions that keep coming every day. I have a great method to cope with this. I will become a phallus. Likewise, it's not unkind to ask someone to use punctuation and para breaks in a twenty-line paragraph full of misspellings. It's helpful; they'd get more replies. It is not unkind to correct their terminology; that's education. If they then get all behindhurt, that's their problem.
If you (general you)'re over stupid questions, great. Don't answer them at all. You aren't obligated to. Don't volunteer your time to people for whom you feel contempt. Let someone else do it this time. It's so simple. But let them deserve it before going full phallus. Same for if someone's collecting does not square up with what you happen to consider 'the hobby.' Your hobby might not be theirs. It probably isn't mine. If someone wants to collect parking lot coins, well, it doesn't have to make sense to me. Not my collection. Same for parking tokens and elongates, interest in which baffles me completely. Doesn't matter. It's not my money.
I hate bullies, and they aren't going to hear the end of it from me.

My complaint is not with giving a hosing to the abusive newbie who cops an attitude for no good reason, or asks a question and then whines when they don't like the answer. Give 'em both barrels in that case. My complaint is with the sarcastic troglodytes who think it makes them look cool and smart to give someone a hard time before they even do anything stoopid or hostile. It is the inability to put oneself in someone else's place, or worse yet, the refusal to bother to try. It's a very poor, petty, playground look. It's like if police stopped a car for simply driving, on the grounds that the driver was probably planning to speed at some point.
It's one thing to be blunt with the reality of a coin. If it's a parking lot coin, there is zero wrong with just saying "You're incorrect. It's not an error. It's damage. It's worth one penny." That's not sarcasm; that's an honest answer, and no nube should potty themselves because they got an honest answer that did not smooch their patoot. It's quite another to decide: I am over stoopid questions that keep coming every day. I have a great method to cope with this. I will become a phallus. Likewise, it's not unkind to ask someone to use punctuation and para breaks in a twenty-line paragraph full of misspellings. It's helpful; they'd get more replies. It is not unkind to correct their terminology; that's education. If they then get all behindhurt, that's their problem.
If you (general you)'re over stupid questions, great. Don't answer them at all. You aren't obligated to. Don't volunteer your time to people for whom you feel contempt. Let someone else do it this time. It's so simple. But let them deserve it before going full phallus. Same for if someone's collecting does not square up with what you happen to consider 'the hobby.' Your hobby might not be theirs. It probably isn't mine. If someone wants to collect parking lot coins, well, it doesn't have to make sense to me. Not my collection. Same for parking tokens and elongates, interest in which baffles me completely. Doesn't matter. It's not my money.
I hate bullies, and they aren't going to hear the end of it from me.

No.

This person just east of Corvallis (couple hours south of Portland) ticks all the boxes.
Total numismatic ignorance? Check. He thinks errors are 'misprinted' and thus that coins are evidently 'printed.'
Hideous photos? Check. In fact he'll go one better: Only one blurry photo of one side of ten coins.
Price insanity? Oh yeah. 'But it's a 1929 wheat back! It has to be worth hundreds with this misprint!'
Semiliteracy? Check. Can't even spell 'peso' even though the word is presumably physically present on the coins. Next we'll hear of the west Texas town of El Peso. No punctuation; probably doesn't know what it is.
Arrogance? 'No low ball offers I know how much they are really worth...'
All caps? Check! After all, everyone knows that yelling makes you more credible!

This person just east of Corvallis (couple hours south of Portland) ticks all the boxes.
Total numismatic ignorance? Check. He thinks errors are 'misprinted' and thus that coins are evidently 'printed.'
Hideous photos? Check. In fact he'll go one better: Only one blurry photo of one side of ten coins.
Price insanity? Oh yeah. 'But it's a 1929 wheat back! It has to be worth hundreds with this misprint!'
Semiliteracy? Check. Can't even spell 'peso' even though the word is presumably physically present on the coins. Next we'll hear of the west Texas town of El Peso. No punctuation; probably doesn't know what it is.
Arrogance? 'No low ball offers I know how much they are really worth...'
All caps? Check! After all, everyone knows that yelling makes you more credible!

This person just east of Corvallis (couple hours south of Portland) ticks all the boxes.
Total numismatic ignorance? Check. He thinks errors are 'misprinted' and thus that coins are evidently 'printed.'
Hideous photos? Check. In fact he'll go one better: Only one blurry photo of one side of ten coins.
Price insanity? Oh yeah. 'But it's a 1929 wheat back! It has to be worth hundreds with this misprint!'
Semiliteracy? Check. Can't even spell 'peso' even though the word is presumably physically present on the coins. Next we'll hear of the west Texas town of El Peso. No punctuation; probably doesn't know what it is.
Arrogance? 'No low ball offers I know how much they are really worth...'
All caps? Check! After all, everyone knows that yelling makes you more credible!

This person just east of Corvallis (couple hours south of Portland) ticks all the boxes.
Total numismatic ignorance? Check. He thinks errors are 'misprinted' and thus that coins are evidently 'printed.'
Hideous photos? Check. In fact he'll go one better: Only one blurry photo of one side of ten coins.
Price insanity? Oh yeah. 'But it's a 1929 wheat back! It has to be worth hundreds with this misprint!'
Semiliteracy? Check. Can't even spell 'peso' even though the word is presumably physically present on the coins. Next we'll hear of the west Texas town of El Peso. No punctuation; probably doesn't know what it is.
Arrogance? 'No low ball offers I know how much they are really worth...'
All caps? Check! After all, everyone knows that yelling makes you more credible!

This person just east of Corvallis (couple hours south of Portland) ticks all the boxes.
Total numismatic ignorance? Check. He thinks errors are 'misprinted' and thus that coins are evidently 'printed.'
Hideous photos? Check. In fact he'll go one better: Only one blurry photo of one side of ten coins.
Price insanity? Oh yeah. 'But it's a 1929 wheat back! It has to be worth hundreds with this misprint!'
Semiliteracy? Check. Can't even spell 'peso' even though the word is presumably physically present on the coins. Next we'll hear of the west Texas town of El Peso. No punctuation; probably doesn't know what it is.
Arrogance? 'No low ball offers I know how much they are really worth...'
All caps? Check! After all, everyone knows that yelling makes you more credible!

Here's my suggestion: while the grading designation does matter, you should first always look up the melt value of the gold coin. The greater it differs from the market price, the more the value will be driven by numismatic interest relative to bullion prices. $1 coins are often great examples of this. This matters because if most of the value of the coin is in the metal, a details grade probably isn't going to change things much except that you will have gotten it authenticated. But if most of the value is numismatic, a details grade will make a significant difference because those that straight grade are more highly prized. "Holding value over time" is somewhat tangential to the reality because with coins that are mostly bullion value, the metal price will have effects you cannot foresee.
So the distilled answer is to do your homework and see how much premium there even is to miss out on, given a details graded coin. Of course, if a straight graded coin only commands a minor premium over melt as well, the reasonable question for you to ask is why not spring for the extra amount and get a straight graded coin? Even if metal prices drop a huge deuce, at least you will probably like the coin a little better.

“The terminology seems to give an indication of what the coins look like. How is it false, misleading, inaccurate and confusing?”

I guess you didn’t care to answer my above question regarding your disdain for the term “Roman”.
On top of that, throwing out insults like “foolish” and “degrading” certainly doesn’t do much to invite or further a conversation. I tried to do that from my end, with an open mind.But you have reminded me why I’d given up on trying to engage with you, previously. Lesson learned (again).

It's not that they aren't authentic. It's that they are altered. We have seen enough of them, and enough of the unaltered ones, to identify them by sight. Mr. Lange is quite correct that these are altered--replated--and of no numismatic value. If you want to spend $180 or so to confirm that, it's your money.

One of the biggest challenges in trying to help people is to imagine ourselves not knowing all that we know. For example, the term TPG: The new numismatist (let's say NN) rarely knows that this means Third-Party Grading (service). Some of us are good at realizing that we're addressing an audience that doesn't know all that we know, and some follow the "I'm not going to spoon-feed you; you know how to Google, so keep up, homes" approach.
We can do better, and since I'm probably the only professional editor in this particular space--if not, I'm not seeing anyone else step up, so I might as well be--I can help by mentioning things like this. I'd encourage us all to remember our audience, what it doesn't know, and to take the few extra moments to dial the guidance down to their level. It might feel repetitive, such as when explaining TPGs for the twentieth time, but each new arrival lacks awareness of our fatigue. We will better serve them if we try our utmost to assume less knowledge and impart the maximum understanding.
It's always reasonable to refer NNs to explanatory articles, price guides, grading guides, and so on. We can't control their content, and it will often be worth examining. But when we're the guides, let's make sure we don't miss the basics. For example, when the NN asks what the coin is worth, that question has multiple valid answers. There's what a typical dealer might pay; there's what a private collector might pay; there's what the price guides say. Obviously dealers do not pay full retail. Most of us have seen that collectors tend to pay more than dealers. No one's going to give them full book. NNs need to understand this or they can't get a fair idea of which number applies to their circumstances.
This could help alleviate some needless confusion.

See it from others' perspective (a lost art in modern Murrica, here as anywhere). Imagine you are an advanced numismatist who volunteers their time and energy on a coin forum. Every day, every single day, you see people post stuff asking whether it should be slabbed by a TPG. In 95% of the cases that would be a remarkably not_very_bright idea: parking lot coins, dryer coins, shiny penny syndrome, replated steelies, and other craptacularities. It's not their fault most of the time, they just don't know richard about coins.
In 4% of the cases--including yours--there is at least some argument for slabbing, but it is unlikely that the cost of slabbing will exceed the value it might add. This is the case for yours, in the received wisdom. Also, know that most collectors consider a details grade a huge disappointment. That is their perspective. If you see it, you will understand why they would hold and share the opinions they do. No one is trying to be a meany to you. They're only seeing it from their own perspectives. Since they aren't the ones with the question, that's up to them. All you can do is understand why, then make your own decision--factoring in the bias of their years of torment trying to explain to semiliterate cretins why their vise-pressed coins aren't Rare Mint Errors. If you have done that a few hundred times and had semiliterate cretins argue with you half the time, you already understand this perspective and it would make sense to apply it.
In maybe 1% of the cases, it makes very good sense for the poster to send it in for slabbing. (Notice I don't say 'send it in for grading' because you don't have to send it in to get a grade. You can assign that yourself based on your knowledge; what you can't do is slab/grade/authenticate it with a reputable TPG label.This is a terminology battle I will not win, but in which I will never surrender.) If you think yours is in this category, it's your money.

The dings on the reverse look to me like sloppy chops. It is very common for Trades to have those, but they are usually deeper and sharper. The scratches are of course the scratches, though many might not show up in hand and some might be on the airtite. Definitely not MS, can't speak to authenticity. Might actually be worth sending in just to get it authenticated, which is a huge problem with Trades.

I also want to say thanks for actually asking before just blowing through and doing whatever the heck seems good at the moment. Very few people do so. You might have a hard time imagining how unwise and inconsiderate some new posters can be with regard to the environment of the people they are asking for information--but if you hang around, you'll see them in full cry.

I also want to say thanks for actually asking before just blowing through and doing whatever the heck seems good at the moment. Very few people do so. You might have a hard time imagining how unwise and inconsiderate some new posters can be with regard to the environment of the people they are asking for information--but if you hang around, you'll see them in full cry.

I live in Portland and our club has an annual show to which ANACS shows up for live grading. Long Beach being much bigger, seems likely NGC would be there.
If you actually own that 61 Maris, and if envy were one of my flaws, I'd be envying you with a mighty envying. Sweet centering.

Your instinct was correct. Stang's probably right about where it happened.

When you post a question about a coin or coins, it's worth remembering that the people giving you answers--unless it is specifically about an NGC policy matter or submission--are volunteer hobbyists who do this for fun. They are not speaking for NGC; they speak only for themselves, and they want to help people. When you do a good job of posting your inquiry, you increase your chances of helpful replies, because you show respect for the volunteers' time.
Please do:
Ask a question, or multiple questions. We need to know what to focus on. Authenticity? Grade? Identification? Value? All of these? Think about your questions. "What would this grade at NGC?" and "What grade would you give this coin?" are two very different questions. If you ask the first one, only people who know a lot about NGC's ways have much to offer you. "How much is this worth?" is another nebulous question. Better: "What would a dealer pay me for this?" Or: "What would a dealer sell this for?" Post clear photos of the entire obverse, reverse, and if necessary the edge. If need be, add zoomed photos of specific features, but always clear shots of both full sides. Post all pictures of a given coin in the same thread. Accept that if you have photographic limitations, and you keep posting badly photographed coins, you'll keep being told they're not good enough to use to answer your question. You can't expect everyone to read all your threads and know your circumstances, be they poverty or Parkinson's or can'tbebothereditis. It's not their fault your photos can't or won't get better, even if it is also not always your own fault. Use a thread title that describes the coin(s), so that people who know the subject matter are likelier to read the thread. If you just inherited Bampaw's silver dollar collection which you can see spans the period 1850-1921, you could title it "Evaluating silver dollar collection 1850-1921." People who know a lot about those silver dollars will see it and be likely to help you. "Grading advice" is bad; everyone wants grading advice. "Morgan dollar grading advice" is good. "Is this fake?" is bad. "Is this Chinese silver coin fake?" is good. Post only once per coin. (If you have received a huge collection, and you want to start with a picture of the whole hoard with zoomed shots of parts, that's no problem. This guideline is intended to keep people from slamming multiple fully photographed coins into a single thread, making it difficult to figure out which one the answers are talking about. So if it's a hoard, and you single out some for close scrutiny, go with new threads for each of those.) If the picture files are too large in terms of data, learn to make them smaller without losing necessary information. Paint.net is a free image editor for Windows. Open your pictures in it, crop them, and save them as .jpgs. Look at what sizes they are now. This is too easy. If there is any question of identification or authentication, include weight in grams and diameter in millimeters. If you don't know the metric system, use an online converter. Weight is one of the key diagnostics of authenticity and unless the coin is too obviously bogus to bother, you will be asked for it. Just include it with your first post. Tell us what you know, or what you believe to be the case, about the coin. It's okay to be incorrect. Understand that the term "melt" does not automatically mean someone plans to melt the coin down, nor is anyone suggesting you should. It refers simply to the value of the metal for its own sake. Do not freak out when someone says "melt" about Bampaw's Morgan dollars. We really do not want or expect you to throw it in a blast furnace, all right? Use punctuation. Being easy to read works to your benefit. When you write a twelve-line paragraph with no periods or commas, people tune you out. For those who need reminders, this , is a comma. You use it to separate phrases, more or less. This . is a period. You use it to end most sentences. Hitting Enter will insert a paragraph break. You use this between series of thoughts. Live them. Love them. Use them. because ill tell u what really suxors is when some1 posts sententses like this 1 4 about half a page its impossibel 2 read and some people including me will prob not finish readin it which means u arent gettin as many respontses think about it ur only hurtin ur own cozz notice how stooped this reads ur in affect makin urself ten times harder 2 help and frankly its disrespectfull 2 assume entellegent people should do all that extra work 4 ur sake now kinely clean up ur act and rite like u at least got thru 6ixth grade im glad we had this little talk Come prepared to accept responsive answers. Brace yourself to learn that Bampaw or Opa, always considered the family's Great Numismatist, may not have been so great at this. No one seeks to offend your relative's legacy, but the coin must be called what it is. Be patient. No one who doesn't know the answer is going to post "I don't know." It can take days to a week for someone to notice. Remember that some inquiries may require research, for which volunteers are not being paid, and are doing as they have time. Expect that opinions may vary, even among experienced numismatists. Realize that if you're rude and/or difficult, your problem is not the people who take time to fight with you. Your problem is the people who, without a word, mark you down as someone not to bother with in the future--because you have no idea who or how many they are, and thus have no power to alleviate that diagnosis. Kindly do not:
Just post pictures without giving any indication of what you want to learn. Post glare-obscured, blurry, or otherwise poor photos. Post only partial pictures of errors or damage. Complain that your pics are too big to post. Use an image editor to crop and save them as .jpgs. Get defensive when told your pics are not good. Maybe you're bad at photography; maybe you don't have a good camera; maybe the photography gods just don't like you. If you can do better, do so. If you cannot do better, than just accept that this limits how much we can help you. Post a new thread for every photo of the same coin. Post new threads in the same forum, or other forums, with reference to the same coin. Once suffices. The shotgun approach makes one look impatient and immature. Use a meaningless thread title like "looking for advice" or "no idea what 2 do" or "plz help." Those tell people nothing about the discussion except that it was begun by someone who picks meaningless thread titles. Omit weight and diameter, unless they are completely irrelevant to your question. Get annoyed if you don't like the answers. If you disagree with them, fine; act on your views. Ask us to tell you how we know it's a counterfeit. While that's a legit question on its face, the problem is that even if you didn't mint the fake, those who make them are always looking for ways to improve. We frown upon supplying helpful feedback to criminals, and so should you. So no, don't ask us that. And if we tell you politely that we aren't going into detail, don't get annoyed because you don't like that answer. Grouse about not getting any replies. No one knows everything; no one has unlimited time; sometimes no one knows the answer. Come in telling how many Youtube videos you have watched about coins. This will lower your credibility. Use Photobucket links. If you do, don't anticipate that people will use them. Photobucket has been connected with numerous malware and virus infections. Spell 'nickel' as 'nickle.' Whether referring to the element or the five-cent coin, this misspelling is a very bad look. If you take the time to do this correctly, you can learn a lot more here than if you skip important steps.
If you do not take the time to do this correctly, some posters may decide that their time is better spent helping other people.
Lastly, here is a Cliff's Notes version that would take care of 95% of the most common disappointed inquiries. If you want to post yours anyway, fine, but just please kindly do not engage in a protracted and dullard debate when you are told that:
Your 1804 silver dollar is a bad counterfeit. Look up authentic examples and compare closely. Your 1776 Continental dollar is a bad counterfeit or a souvenir replica. Many were churned out. What you think is a double die is almost surely mechanical doubling, which carries no premium. What you think is a mint error is likely post-mint damage, and your coin is worth face value. Your "silver" non-1943 penny is plated, replated, has had the plating come off, is altered, or somesuch. Your "bronze" 1943 penny is altered somehow, and is worth very little. Your Greek "silver" coin with flanges sticking out of its edges is a bad cast counterfeit. Your cheesy-looking brass token is not gold, and is not a coin. Any clown can mint brass tokens with bad designs. Cleaning your coins is a stupid idea. Yes, even for you. You, too. If you ask how, listen to the people who tell you not to do so. If you cite Etsy as an authority, people will laugh their heads off with good reason. This is horrible for your cred. If you cite a Youtube video as an authority, people will laugh with good reason. This is bad for your cred. If you have more than three supposed error coins you found in change, and plan to post them all, the odds are overwhelming that none of them are mint errors worthy of note. If you keep posting these without seeming to learn, people might conclude that learning is not your thing. There, that rounds up the usual suspects. I'm not saying those answers are automatically always right. However, as the strongest probabilities, they should be presumed correct unless they can be proven wrong. If you have one child and something is broken in the house, not by you or your spouse, typically the child did it. If you can prove the kid innocent, fair enough; but you know the kid almost surely did it. If you argue about a "double die" at fatuous length when it's clear you don't know what one really is, you will look like the kid with soot all over him insisting he didn't really dig around in the fireplace.
Don't be that kid.
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Opinions, comments, additions, suggestions?

If you rub them, no matter with what, you will be making them worse. The basic problem here is that you know (and admit, to your credit), that you made mistakes. You are trying to correct/reverse the mistakes (problematic even for experienced collectors) when it would make more sense to simply buy new examples, handle them correctly, then put them in holders. Unless they're scarce varieties, they're just ASEs. It's not like they're great rare antiquities, as you recognized. If they have sentimental value, that's its own appeal of course, but it doesn't change the "damage is done" aspect. The fact is that mishandling is for keeps in most cases, but if it leads you to improve your handling going forward, it wasn't all downer.
Any oil or dirt on the surfaces has already been eating away at them. It is questionable whether further action counts as conservation (to stabilize the piece before holdering) or cleaning. Don't use those coin cleaners you mentioned. If you cannot refrain from doing something to them in spite of everything we say--and you will get nearly zero encouragement to clean your coins--try a quick ammonia dip on one single expendable coin, the very worst and most expendable. Rinse well with distilled water. See what happened to it. If it were me I'd use an uncirculated 1964 quarter (common as dirt). I'd thumb it, let it sit for a month, then dip it and see what occurred. Of course, the effect on a copper-alloyed silver piece is not quite the same as a solid silver piece, but pretty close. Or just buy a real badly thumbed ASE from the dealer's bullion bin and use that. If nothing happens to the expendables, you can dip them longer and see what you get.
To handle coins, the main thing is the cleanliness and lack of abrasion. If you abrade/rub the surface the way you hold the coins with any cloth or glove, you're damaging them; if the cloth has touched enough skin or coin crud already without being cleaned, the cloth itself will impart those. When I have something nice, like a proof or unc, I use these little blue plastic coin tongs that lock on the rim but don't sink into the metal or mar it that I have ever seen. If you want to be reassured, get a cheap proof dime and pinch it with the tongs, then use them to set it on the microscope and look for damage.
You see the trend. If you want to experiment, experiment with expendable things one at a time and examine the results closely. That way, when we turn out to be right and it screws them up, your loss is minimal and your knowledge advances.

Jesus. Well, I'll know not to bother with that again.

How about you actually explain these things to the OP rather than ask questions you know good and well they can't answer? This is the newbie forum. Newbies often don't understand the difference between proofs and really shiny business strikes. You could help them, and certainly have the knowledge to do so.

How about you actually explain these things to the OP rather than ask questions you know good and well they can't answer? This is the newbie forum. Newbies often don't understand the difference between proofs and really shiny business strikes. You could help them, and certainly have the knowledge to do so.

Found an old Barber dime. In retail locations and on Ebenezer. Condition, rarity, age.