Worth grading? 1 1

[QuikSnap]

T$, cleaned at some point I assume, but... I think she's worthy. Wanted to see what you guys thought.

First post, hello world.

[J P M]

Welcome to the forum. It looks like someone purposely damaged it on both sides long ago. 

[JT2]

no this would be just a waste of money to have this graded.  if anything t would come back with a details grade and a very low one at that.  

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:12 AM, fvckcensorship said:

T$, cleaned at some point I assume, but... I think she's worthy. Wanted to see what you guys thought.

First post, hello world.

Just curios why you would think it's "worthy" of being graded with all that damage and scratches probably from cleaning?

Edited July 26, 2022 by EagleRJO

[JKK]

The dings on the reverse look to me like sloppy chops. It is very common for Trades to have those, but they are usually deeper and sharper. The scratches are of course the scratches, though many might not show up in hand and some might be on the airtite. Definitely not MS, can't speak to authenticity. Might actually be worth sending in just to get it authenticated, which is a huge problem with Trades.

[QuikSnap]

Why am I being urged to not grade this just because it will score details cleaned, I said that in the OP.

That damage is clearly light strikes from a chop mark.. Were you the one grading chops as damage those years ago??

 

Its not MS but it's at least AU in my opinion.

 

I say again, what's wrong with a details trade dollar? You guys want me to make sure I can hawk it on someone else? pass the buck?

"Might actually be worth sending in just to get it authenticated, which is a huge problem with Trades."

THIS^^^^^

Edited July 26, 2022 by New User

[JT2]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, New User said:

I say again, what's wrong with a details trade dollar? You guys want me to make sure I can hawk it on someone else? pass the buck?

WE just didnt want to see someone waste their hard earned money but by all measn if you wish to have it certified then go for it.  you will find that that is not an AU Trade dollar.  This coin has been harshly cleaned and is damaged as each one here has stated.  but we dont write the check you do.

[Sandon]

    In my opinion it makes no economic sense to submit this coin to a grading service.  You already realize from the "off" color and hairline scratches that the coin would be "details" graded as having been "cleaned". It also has a "chop mark" on the obverse at Liberty's knee and two more "chop marks" on the reverse.  While these marks tend to demonstrate that the coin actually circulated in Asia, they don't make it a coin of sufficient value to warrant the cost of third party authentication and grading. The coin would receive either an XF or AU "details" grade.  An unimpaired XF40 to AU50 1875-S trade dollar has a retail value (per Coin World) of $350 to $400.  Impaired it's worth at least a third less, and dealers may offer much less than that if they think it would be hard to sell, as most collectors prefer unimpaired pieces.  You could try to submit it to NGC in the "economy" tier as a coin worth less than $300, which would involve a $23 grading fee, a $10 processing fee for your order--hopefully not just a single coin--and substantial charges for shipping and insurance. It could take several months for you to get the coin back in that tier; "standard" service (somewhat faster) would cost an additional $17.

   I've been collecting coins since 1971, fifteen years before PCGS and NGC existed.  I've found much of the challenge and enjoyment of numismatics to come from learning how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins yourself.  While third party certification is of value for coins that are (a) high value or (b) frequently counterfeited or altered and of sufficient value to warrant the cost, why do you need to pay for someone else's opinion for this piece, which you've already formed a good opinion on yourself?

[zadok]

...ur ques is one that does not have a standard answer, every coin is worth being graded if u have a reason for doing so, whether its economically sound to grade certain coins is a diff matter, ur coin is worth more than the grading fee regardless of cost or grade so u can recoup ur money unless u over paid for it in the first place, yes its been cleaned all agree n u said so urself so details it is, the chop marks can either add to or take away from its desirability, each person has to decide whether the cost of grading is warranted on every coin they have...to me the grading cost does not enter into the decision its more as to whether i want it raw or slabbed period...obviously dealers have diff considerations...the answer to ur ques is more akin to "do i want to put this photo in a frame or in a box n put it in the closet"...

[JKK]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:52 AM, New User said:

I say again, what's wrong with a details trade dollar? You guys want me to make sure I can hawk it on someone else? pass the buck?

See it from others' perspective (a lost art in modern Murrica, here as anywhere). Imagine you are an advanced numismatist who volunteers their time and energy on a coin forum. Every day, every single day, you see people post stuff asking whether it should be slabbed by a TPG. In 95% of the cases that would be a remarkably not_very_bright idea: parking lot coins, dryer coins, shiny penny syndrome, replated steelies, and other craptacularities. It's not their fault most of the time, they just don't know richard about coins.

In 4% of the cases--including yours--there is at least some argument for slabbing, but it is unlikely that the cost of slabbing will exceed the value it might add. This is the case for yours, in the received wisdom. Also, know that most collectors consider a details grade a huge disappointment. That is their perspective. If you see it, you will understand why they would hold and share the opinions they do. No one is trying to be a meany to you. They're only seeing it from their own perspectives. Since they aren't the ones with the question, that's up to them. All you can do is understand why, then make your own decision--factoring in the bias of their years of torment trying to explain to semiliterate cretins why their vise-pressed coins aren't Rare Mint Errors. If you have done that a few hundred times and had semiliterate cretins argue with you half the time, you already understand this perspective and it would make sense to apply it.

In maybe 1% of the cases, it makes very good sense for the poster to send it in for slabbing. (Notice I don't say 'send it in for grading' because you don't have to send it in to get a grade. You can assign that yourself based on your knowledge; what you can't do is slab/grade/authenticate it with a reputable TPG label.This is a terminology battle I will not win, but in which I will never surrender.) If you think yours is in this category, it's your money.

[QuikSnap]

Thank you all for your input! I appreciate the more thorough answers.

I think that it more belongs in a folder. Thanks for your thoughts.

Edited July 26, 2022 by New User

[RWB]

Worth grading?

No. Damaged and of little collector value.

[VKurtB]

If you want to use it as an example of chopmarks in a talk on Trade Dollars, slab away. Or it might make a nice hole filler in a Dansco 7070 album until you can score a nicer one. It’s not badly worn per se, just abused. 

[QuikSnap]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:44 AM, VKurtB said:

If you want to use it as an example of chopmarks in a talk on Trade Dollars, slab away. Or it might make a nice hole filler in a Dansco 7070 album until you can score a nicer one. It’s not badly worn per se, just abused. 

I think that's my plan right now, have two separate collections, one raw, one graded. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[VKurtB]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:46 PM, New User said:

I think that's my plan right now, have two separate collections, one raw, one graded. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Nothing at all! Only two, huh?

[QuikSnap]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:47 AM, VKurtB said:

Nothing at all! Only two, huh?

Oh, who could forget about the side potty dollar stack.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, New User said:

Were you the one grading chops as damage those years ago?

I thought many of the Trade Dollars used were counter-stamped with chop marks by the various traders in Asia, so it's kind of expected for those, particularly circulated ones.  I think it's kind of cool to see them counter-stamped with chop marks, but that's just me.

On 7/26/2022 at 11:25 AM, Sandon said:

An unimpaired XF40 to AU50 1875-S trade dollar has a retail value (per Coin World) of $350 to $400.  Impaired it's worth at least a third less, and dealers may offer much less than that if they think it would be hard to sell, as most collectors prefer unimpaired pieces.

@SandonRB at $300 to $350 if legit XF-40 to AU-50 and not Details only graded.  Just curious if you were thinking XF because the scratches and scuff marks are probably on the coin and not the capsule?

To me as a noob with these coins it doesn't seem like there is a lot of general wear.  The rims, inscriptions (except maybe a bit on the pedestal banner and "E" there) and Liberty's dress, knees, breast and hair on the obv as well as the eagles head, leg feathers and wing tips on the rev all appear sharp and clear as noted in the Red Book.  Unless you are seeing something I'm missing.

On 7/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, New User said:

"Might actually be worth sending in just to get it authenticated, which is a huge problem with Trades."

I was just curious if you thought it was worthy because it seems like a legit 1875-S that doesn't seem to have a lot of wear, even though there were a lot struck that year vs other years and it looks like it was cleaned.  Maybe because you want to know for your collection that its legit, and not that you want to sell it because it may not be worth much?

[VKurtB]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:49 PM, New User said:

Oh, who could forget about the side potty dollar stack.

I have a Dansco album set that ONLY gets updated with mint set and proof set coins, and another one that only gets updated with “found in circulation” coins. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:25 AM, Sandon said:

I've found much of the challenge and enjoyment of numismatics to come from learning how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins yourself.  While third party certification is of value for coins that are (a) high value or (b) frequently counterfeited or altered and of sufficient value to warrant the cost ...

Agreed, and hands down why I prefer raw coins for most of what I am collecting except for really expensive ones.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:46 PM, New User said:

I think that's my plan right now, have two separate collections, one raw, one graded. Nothing wrong with that at all.

You can also grade and slab the raw coins yourself and keep them together as an option.  Thats what I am doing with the common ASEs, Morgans, Eagles, etc. that I am collecting, and only plan on getting TPG slabbed ones if they are expensive just to protect myself.  And when I grade/slab them myself I use the slabs that are somewhat similar to the PCGS ones but are easy-open with a dime so I can easily take the coins out of the slabs to look at and hold in my hand, and then pop them back in just for storage/protection.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

EagleRJO, regarding several of your comments:

1. Some collectors like chop marked trade dollars, and I think that PCGS--I don't know about NGC--will numerically grade them with the notation "chop marked", but most collectors regard them as impaired in my experience.  Most surviving genuine trade dollars are not chop marked, as many circulated in the United States, even though they had limited (later no) legal tender status.

2. The "Red Book" is a great source of basic information, but as it's published in April the year before the one it's dated, its prices aren't up to date.  I refer to one or more of the newest editions of Coin World (monthly), The CPG Coin & Currency Market Review (quarterly), and the online PCGS and NGC price guides, depending on my purpose. I think that Coin World is best for circulated or lower grade uncirculated uncertified coins.

3.  Regarding the grade of New User's coin, in my opinion it shows too much wear on Liberty's head and breast and on the feathers of the eagle to be graded AU. (New User's coin seems closest to the XF45 photos for trade dollars on PCGS Photograde, a resource you should check out at the PCGS website, under "Resources" at the bottom of the home page.) Moreover, grading services tend to downgrade "details" coins by one adjectival grade in my experience, and AU coins are usually expected to show some mint luster, which the cleaning has destroyed on this one, if it had any beforehand.  Check out photos of higher grade mint state trade dollars (as on PCGS Photograde) to see what they look like with full details.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:41 PM, Sandon said:

EagleRJO, regarding several of your comments:

Thanks, I do use the PCGS Photograde for trying to figure out the grade, as well as the coin specific descriptions in the RB.  Also, I do use the PCGS and NGC values but find my 2023 RB not that far off (maybe a little under sometimes), and I usually have it out anyway if trying to grade a coin.

About the grade I did roughly come up with AU from the RB description, and then went to Photograde to find an AU and saw the attached for an AU-50.  Actually, seemed like a little less wear of the OPs coin on the head and some of the feathers, but downgrading to an XF for being cleaned with not as nice of an appearance or luster would make sense.

Coin World looks like a great online reference, and I am looking mostly at raw coins so that could be a really nice golden nugget to put in the toolbox.  Much appreciated. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:49 PM, New User said:

Oh, who could forget about the side potty dollar stack.

There are modern versions or adaptations of the "Potty Dollar" which I think are still pretty funny, and probably would order one if not that much.  I do have a Dan Carr 1964-D Morgan Silver Dollar ("Token"), which I think is pretty funny to show people, so one of those would probably fit right in.

I understand there are people who fanatically collect things like the Dan Carr and Potty Dollar tokens.

[QuikSnap]

I will share my potty dollar, pretty unique one too imo. Had it XRF'd the other day and the base metal is right, at least. I personally believe it to be contemporary but that's always up for debate isn't it.

[EagleRJO]

Nice coin, even if it is contemporary!  Maybe you could send that one in to be TPG authenticated ... .  I know ANACS will certify the Dan Carr Tokens, including the Morgans, so maybe they do Potty Dollars also (they probably will "certify" anything ).

Funny thing about the Dan Carr 1964 Morgan is that apparently they actually found the hubs, dies and models for that coin to be struck by the US Mint, but there are no records of any actually being struck.  Now, for the 1964 Peace Dollar they also found the hubs and dies, but unlike the Morgans they actually did strike some of those coins in early 1965 with a 1964 date, and reportedly all of them were melted down.  Some collectors are actually on the hunt for an authentic 1964 Morgan or Peace dollar.  So, the next one on my list of goof coins is the Dan Carr replica Peace dollar.

Edited July 26, 2022 by EagleRJO