Oldhoopster

On 7/19/2022 at 7:09 PM, VKurtB said:

This field of study already exists and is being done, but not here in this country. Its name is paleometallurgy and papers on studies of ancient and medieval coins are being presented at the XVI International Numismatic Congress in Warsaw, Poland in September. Apparently SOMEONE is funding the research somewhere. Maybe our issues here don’t interest those with da Benjamins to throw at the study. 

I've read a few papers regarding roman denarii composition and the development of surface silvering and found them interesting but they bring up a lot more questions.

On 7/19/2022 at 2:03 PM, VKurtB said:

He who insists that organizations need to do things that they presently do not do, for the benefit or curiosity of the insistor, or a few brethren, is a thief of resources - and frankly, a troll. 

Hey V. Kurt. You may want to get out your glasses and reread my posts (and the others) regarding numismatic research.  Nobody INSISTED organizations fund this research.  On the contrary, I think the posts did an excellent job of explaining why we DO NOT have funding for this type of research.  Maybe you should take the time to read and comprehend the posts before responding.

I'm sorry if you believe those of us who feel that the advancement of knowledge are trolls.  I have to admit that is one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen on this forum.  But I  guess I shouldn't expect anything less from an avowed Luddite.  Long live the good old days!

On 7/19/2022 at 12:38 PM, zadok said:

...all true, but in this specific instance, does anyone really care where the ore came from to produce said coin?...certainly not enuf to pay to find out...the exception being, possibly the aforementioned CAL $2.5s for verification purposes...it would be like me wanting to know if the rubber in my front left tire came from india, malaysia, fenntucky's doughnuts or that funny looking tree in hoghead's back yard...no one or any company is going to pony up the money for a determination that generates no revenue or beneficial result...now if said tests could prove if America's first silver half dimes came from Ben's or Martha's silver platter n candlesticks then u just mite have a market, slim but a market....

Exactly

Personally, I would be very interested in reading about the ore source of a CAL quarter eagle, but that's me.  I'm sure there are many (most?) In the hobby that couldn't care less about this minutiae.  

So it comes down to what value does a company or organization get from funding this research?  Short of PR, the answer is not much.  That's why it isnt being done.

On 7/19/2022 at 11:24 AM, RWB said:

The current situation is that although we have technology to support greatly superior numismatic information, it is not being used and no organization seems to be interested in its use.

Right now we can, with little work:

• Consistently examine and grade bulk coins and bullion tokens.
• Objectively determine the reflectivity of proof and proof-like coins and apply subjective categories.
• Measure the elemental composition of alloys.
• Separate originals from restrikes.
• Quickly identify counterfeits.
• Identify the origin of certain gold or silver used in coinage.
• Quantify design relief of original coin specimens.
• Identify and validate overdates, etc. through accurate surface characteristic determination.

Who's going to pay for it? 

Does the ANS provide research grants? I don't think the ANA does. I believe the CSNS used to provide a small grants for research papers but I'm not sure if they do it anymore

Maybe this is the time for the TPGs or major Auction Houses to step up and fund this research.  Unfortunately, unless they believe the PR has value, it will be chalked up in the loss column and that probably isn't going to happen.

So we're stuck with people like RWB,  Capt Henway,  David Lange, Jack Young and others doing the research and hoping to recoup their costs through book sales and articles.  Gotta be a tough way to make a living.

BTW:  Doing a compositional study of something like the 1848 CAL quarter eagle or early southern gold would be relatively simple assuming you had access to enough samples (yes, I know, big assumption).  XRF on research lab equipment is straightforward and doing a statistical analysis on the data isn't usually complicated.

On 7/18/2022 at 10:48 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Anytime I described PMD using references to seismic activity and tectonic plates, I was sent to bed without supper.

My concern here is your exposure to talc which comes in at #1 on Mohs' Scale of Hardness (diamonds being at the other extreme.) I trust you are aware that exposure to talc, talc dust, talcum powder is extremely dangerous. I do hope the workers were properly outfitted with masks particularly at a high elevation where breathing can become labored increasing the risk to one's respiratory system.

No issues.  The particle morphology of talc is primarily platy although this deposit is blocky.  The problem is when you have acicular secondary minerals such as tremolite or actinolite (asbestosform minerals).  As long as the acicular particles are greater than 5 microns, they aren't considered an issue.  

The Montana deposit has no asbestosform minerals.

BTW: if you ever spend time in a manufacturing plant, OSHA rules and regulations are everywhere.  You would be fined if you tried to get away with the stuff you do around your house.  You don't need to worry about the talc miners, especially if you have no manufacturing experience.

Hope this clears up the misinformation.

Edit to add:

This thread is turning away from numismatics and I'm sure very few members care about particle morphology of talc. If youre' still concerned, My recommendation is to research geology or mineral collecting sites for more info.  You don't go to mineral forums to ask about coins do you?

On 7/18/2022 at 3:47 PM, FlyingAl said:

Ironically, I watched a very good History channel video that explained this almost exactly as you said. In California in particular, seismic activity pushed plates of the earth's crust into buckled ridges forming shelfs with long cracks running though these bucked plates, like this /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\. The heat of the below mantle and the force of rock crushing rock created intense heat that pushed extremely hot liquid (liquid quartz essentially) that collected particles of gold that went into the cracks between the buckled plates. The liquid cooled, and so did the newly concentrated gold. What was left over is quartz gold veins. 

The difference in gold come from the different impurities contained within (platinum, silver, etc.) 

@Quintus Arrius, I could send you a link to the video if you wished. The visual would probably make more sense than my description.

It helps to have an interest in geology.  I spent some time during my career working with ceramic raw material suppliers, picked up some basic knowledge, and tried to learn more whenever possible.

Nothing like riding around a talc mine at 7700 ft in Montana surrounded by huge Cat trucks and loaders.

The copper plating was breached and the zinc core is corroding.

On 7/17/2022 at 12:51 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Now that I do not have any prior commitments, I will devote my time by trying to determine why Yukon gold is different, and, of course, whether gold alleged to have been found in Ghana is markedly different, too.  One day, you'll say, "Q.A., I do believe I heard of him once. And  if, as you say, he made something of himself, I will take all the credit!"   😉 

Gold (and metal)  deposits are formed from melted rocks solidifying deep underground over long periods of time.  There's a lot of other stuff in the melt that will solidify at different times, sometimes staying separate, but most times forming oxides (think of granite).  Over time, extremely hot, highly pressurized water (because its deep underground) may circulate through the solidified rock and concentrate the metals. 

This happened over millions of years.  Since the composition of the original rock varied depending on the location, the trace minerals will vary as well in the metal.  That's why gold deposits are different.  

It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.  Hope this helps

Edit to add:

So if you know the trace element characteristics of the coin, you can match those concentrations with the metal in the ore body and get a general idea where the gold is from.  

On 7/14/2022 at 2:53 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@Fenntucky Mike@GoldFinger1969

 

.........To @Oldhoopster, have I contributed to the "body of knowledge," or what?  

QA - Not sure the purpose of this last comment unless it's to stir things up since I haven't been part of this thread.

I believe the members of this forum are perfectly capable of determining if you've contributed to the "body of knowledge" and have provided accurate and credible information, and to call out and correct any misinformation.

It was plated.  The plating can be thin and add negligible weight. In addition the standard weight tolerance for a cent is 2.98-3.24 grams so it may have started on the low end of the weight spec. Also depends on how well your scale is calibrated and leveled.

Not seeing any split serifs. No widening of the letters.  Flat. Doubling on both sides of some letters.  I agree with conder, die deterioration, not hub doubling

On 7/13/2022 at 10:38 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Nope. Those two, in particular, P.R &  NMI, were singled out and newbies everywhere, were introduced to a concept they were unfamiliar with: "Hey, I wonder why the North Marianas are on the state quarters?"    😉.......  

Nope. Part way through the state quarter program it was decided to including the Territories and DC.  There was nothing special about PR and NMI being a commonwealth.  They were just part of the program like the rest

Info from the mint.  Hope it helps clarify things

usmint.gov/learn/coin-and-medal-programs/dc-and-us-territories/program-fact-sheet-2

On 7/12/2022 at 11:22 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

........" According to one source, there are two more: Puerto Rico and the North Mariana Islands but they are of "a different kind." I suspect that is why they are a part of that quarter series [I know little about and do not collect but will instinctively look for now that collectors on this Forum have alerted me to their presence. In particular, those mintmarked "W"]. 

FYI - Being a commonwealth had nothing to do with them being added to the State Quarter series.  The were added with the rest of the US territories such as Guam, American Somoa, etc.

On 7/12/2022 at 11:22 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

True. Like any good lawyer, I know the answer before I ask the question. It's historically a bit more intricate that that but I am undeserving of the adulation you've allowed me to bask in. Just trying to contribute to the "body of knowledge." According to one source, there are two more: Puerto Rico and the North Mariana Islands but they are of "a different kind." I suspect that is why they are a part of that quarter series [I know little about and do not collect but will instinctively look for now that collectors on this Forum have alerted me to their presence. In particular, those mintmarked "W"]. 

So you asked a question that you already knew the the answer, that had nothing to do about numismatics, and nobody else seemed to be asking for more info.  Ok, got it.

On 7/12/2022 at 10:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I asked @VKurtB awhile back, so now I'll ask you: when do you use the term, Commonwealth?

Because the Pennsylvania constitution uses Commonwealth, not state to describe itself.  Massachusetts, Kentucky, and Virginia are also Commonwealths

As @RWB said, it's a way for them to get a look at potential material for their auctions.  They may also be hoping that it flushes out some  older collections (i.e., fresh material) that may never have seen the inside of a TPG.

If you think the total fees are reasonable compared to doing It yourself or using a local dealer, and don't mind a potential consignment sales pitch if you have decent stuff, I don't see any significant concerns going through them

On 7/8/2022 at 9:18 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I don't know what I was thinking. Thing is, I formally requested MA-SHOPS discontinue sending me notifications after @VKurtB recently posed a simple question concerning the mintage years of French 20-franc gold Angels (Genie) and Roosters (Coq) and I inadvertently discovered that NO Genie were minted in 1900, much less the 6 MA-SHOPS claimed were available in MS65--the rarest date, with a pop of 2, none finer--a coin I desperately needed... To me that potted plant w/logo was a provocation [slap in the face] and I reacted. 

Are you boycotting all of the dealers who list through MA Shops or just the dealers with the incorrect information?  MA Shops is just a platform like V Coins where dealers can list there inventory.  Hopefully, you haven't eliminated a large source of European dealers from your rooster search

When you learn something, it's a good day 

Extra tail feathers??  I don't think so.  Looks like nothing more than a big ding or gouge with smeared/displaced metal.  PMD

If you take the time and research the story of how the 64 SMS coins were "discovered", you'll know that unless you received this coin from the Adams estate or purchased a slabbed example, you don't have one.  None were issued to collectors or put in circulation.

So if you know it's impossible (which is the correct answer), why did you post it?

Acid damage.  Not an error

Check here to see if its an EXACT match

Www.varietyvista.com

Www.doubleddie.com

It is a contact mark where it was hit by the reeded edge of another coin.  Its damage and would lower the grade.  With all of the other marks, scratches and gouges, it would be very lucky to make it out of the MS60-62 range.  I would spend it and look for a better example.

Here are coins leaving the presses, so you can see how they can easily acquire contact marks

I would expect to pay around $5-7 retail for the top one, less for the bottom one because it's damaged and has been cleaned