Oldhoopster

On 8/16/2022 at 10:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As we have discussed before, many people prefer a great-looking AU-58 over an "ugly" MS-60/61/62 coin (I can't even recall ever seeing a coin graded MS-60).  While I do not believe I have seen an AU-58 price higher than that for an MS coin, the drop-off that you would think isn't there because of the higher-demand (than expected) for the lower-graded coin.

If coins are being downgraded to AU because of the slightest rub on high points, and assuming it's not bag friction, then many collectors may just shrug it off.  Purists will say that ANY RUB -- from circulation or bags -- means the coin should no longer be considered Mint State.  Therein lies the debate. 

I don't want to beat this dead horse, I'm not choosing sides, I'm just telling us what reality is. 

Your response has nothing to do with my comment.

I read/interpreted from a previous comment that somebody felt there may be a bigger  difference between grades (wear? Value?) because there are more numbers between VF20-XF40 than MS63-Ms-65 for example.  All I did was post where the numbers came from and why the magnitude of the numbers and spread between the numbers means nothing

Maybe I misread the previous posts

Agree that the numbers don't correlate to anything.

Comparing the numbers between grades isn't applicable.  MS65 to MS67 is 2 grades. VF20 to XF40 is also 2 grades, not 20.  Sheldon numbers mean nothing in modern day numismatics other than a method to order the grades from lowest to highest.  As @zadoksaid, we're stuck with a bunch of meaningless numbers have no bearing on anything.  They are the appendix of numismatics

On 8/16/2022 at 5:16 PM, zadok said:

...increments in the circ grades r larger than increments in the mint state grades, think bout that for a moment....

The numbers were derived by Sheldon as a way to determine the value of early large cent varieties. An MS70 example was worth 70x a PO-01 (basal state), a G4 was 4x, F12 was 12x, etc. 

So in reality, the numbers mean nothing unless you were trying to estimate values of large cents in the early 1950s

On 8/15/2022 at 11:05 PM, Phil1955 said:

  my question is can they be sent in if in terrible condition , for instance i have found a 1992 close am you can read the date and see the leg of the A touching the M BUT THE GREAT ZINC rot has almost destroyed the coin 

Is it worth the $60+ to send in a coin that at best, will be returned as a details grade, or worse, as ungradable

On 8/15/2022 at 5:04 PM, VKurtB said:

The United States Mint / Treasury Dept. is BACK at the ANA show!!!!! I just did the photo badge for the Director of the Mint. This came together so late that the Mint doesn’t even show on the map in the Show Guide. 

Did I read this correctly? 

The US mint, who sells a a large percentage of their collectable items to coin collectors, can't even bother to make arrangements for a table at arguable the premier collector show, until the last minute?  What a slap in the face to coin collectors.

Kurt, let me know if I misunderstood your message.  

This coin is being discussed on another site.  The discussion involves whether this is truly struck on a foreign planchets or if it's just struck on a planchet punched from thin rolled Nickel stock, and therefore less valuable.

Doing some research using a comprehensive list of foreign coins struck at the US mint, published in an issue of Mint Error News, I determined the following:

* The mint didn't struck coins for other countries between 1980 and 2001.  This coin is dated 1987

* The Denver mint stopped striking foreign coins in 1975, 12 years before this coin was minted

* I could find no planchets that were close to 3.7 gms.  A few 3.4 gms copper alloy were used, but this coin is obviously not a copper composition.

It would have been helpful if the would have included the composition on the slab.  Are we to assume it's the standard cupronickel composition?  Is it something else?

Did NGC get this wrong?  

Reference

https://minterrornews.com/news-5-13-03-foreigners_in_the_mint.html

Had the same experience with mint and proof sets from 2015-18. Was constantly returning them.  There always seemed to be 1 or 2 coins that had scratches, stains, or spots. One year I had 5 mint sets that had at least 1 bad coin.  I was able to combine them into 2 good sets and only had to return 3.  The worst is having to return the replacement sets for poor quality. 

I stopped ordering mint products in 2018.  Now I get them at shows, and surprise, most are usually cheaper if you wait a little while

The original invoices may not add much, if any value, but for those of us who like the provenance and history component of the hobby, they are really interesting.  If they aren't much of a bother to you, please try to keep them with the coins and pass them on to any buyers.  Once they're discarded, you can't get them back.

It also depends on how old the invoices are.  10 year old invoices, not so interesting.  50 year old invoices, could be cool.

That being said, I think many collectors won't really care about them and they are likely to get tossed.  Oh well. Just my thoughts

After you've been at this for a while, you'll end up with all kinds of stuff in drawers and boxes.  Whenever I go looking for something, I always end up spending a lot longer than I thought because I keep finding something I forgot about.  Such is life.

I need to dig out some proof sets and I know there are some cool Canadian mint products from the 90s in those boxes, but I forget what's all there.  I can see myself taking extra time to go through them.  

A proof coin is not black.  

Too many wherefores and whatnots to give you any kind of reasonable answer.  More than likely environmental damage, but until you post a cropped, focused pic, it's just a wild guess

The value of error coins is also dependent on eye appeal.  A coin that "pops" will bring more than one that looks "meh".  How much this affects value? Depends

Based on your pics, I don't think the eye appeal of your coin is that nice.  The drab, mottled coloration reminds me of environmental damage (although it would not have straight graded if that was the case). Just my opinion

On 8/14/2022 at 5:47 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

One thing I was always aware of... Red Books have collector value. The first edition (1936?) rather expensive back when, is probably worth  a good piece of change. The last Red Book I bought after a prolonged interval skipping the 1970's and 1980's, was the one devoted to the recovery of gold coins and bars from the S.S. CENTRAL AMERICA in late 1980's  into the early 1990's, after everything was docimented.  They described coins and bars they never knew existed.

FYI

The first edition of the Redbook was dated 1947

https://www.redbookcollector.com

Edit to add

The author of the Redbook Guide frequents the various coin forums and I think he posts here occasionally.  

About every 8-10 days I get kicked off the site.  To get back in, I have to:

* go to the main NGC page and log out

* close the site

* reopen the site and get into the forums

*  log into the site at the forum

Then I'm good for another week or so.  This has been a nuisance for a while.

On 8/13/2022 at 9:07 PM, Kevine84 said:

OK I am hearing you. Where can I find the definitive exclusive markers for this coin?

You're going to have to do some research.  For stuff like this, there are no simple lists to look up. Hopefully, you're doing this as a learning exercise and not trying to prove your proof is an SMS

I would start with looking at the archived auction listings from HA, Stacks-Bowers, and other big players.  They may offer some marker info, such as the teardrop on the 4 (also found on business strikes) or others.  Also check PCGS (coinfacts) and NGC for any write ups.  You should also check the Newman Numismatic Portal as well.  Hopefully, that will get you started, but there are likely other sources to be found.

Let us know what you find

There is a really good pic detailing the characteristics of both types in one of your old threads

And another in this thread you started

Kurt on his way to Chicago (sorry, couldn't resist)  

Answered in your Other post

All the 1964 SMS coins were found in the estate of a former mint director and subsequently slabbed.  As @l.cutler said, none were released/sold to the public.

Those "Get rich from pocket change" videos never tell you that part of the story.  Best thing is to avoid those sites.  Too much misinformation just designed to get clicks.  It's always good to do a little research before posting, especially now that you've been around here for a while.

On 8/10/2022 at 10:04 PM, VKurtB said:

Posters? Absolutely. Which moderator(s)? The owner? Look, both the owner and the chief moderator don’t even collect coins. But what they BOTH DEMAND is having their gluteals osculated. 

I believe Doug was a collaborator or contributor on a Dutch ducat reference.   

On 8/10/2022 at 2:41 PM, VKurtB said:

Don’t take this as aimed at you, ‘Hoop, (it’s not), but I couldn’t possibly give less of a darn who disagrees. Convincing the ignorant ain’t my jam. 

I recall you posting info back in the CT days and thought you had some good info but not enough to convince me that your opinion was correct.  That's why I'm pushing back.  If you've got good stuff, help set the record straight.  Until then, don't be surprised when people don't  listen to your opinion.  They have their own

On 8/10/2022 at 2:08 PM, VKurtB said:

No, that’s not correct at all. Not even close. They had to relent because some bureaucratic I-d-I-o-t had incorrectly issued an export certificate. Keep in mind that many thousands of gold coins only exist today because they “fled the country”. Otherwise, they’d be part of Ft. Knox bars today. 

Maybe a presentation, ANA, or ANS article will help set the record  straight from your perspective.  It's obvious that many people disagree with you.  All I'm seeing is you telling us your opinion.  Documenting your information in a clear, concise manner will go a long way to replacing your opinions with facts.  No data or facts = Opinion

And Threads like this may be a substitute for formal documentation, but they are choppy, sometimes hard to follow, and in this case not even the original topic of the thread.  

You may be right, but expect to be challenged by many who disagree.  

On 8/10/2022 at 8:23 AM, Kevine84 said:

Thank you. You are one of the reasons I keep coming back.  If

 

In the images I definitely see dots or bubbles.   But the dot I see and am curious about matches the coins color. There are other dot shapes but they are not in the location matching the reference dot and they have a different hue. 

I am not familiar with restoration services but do you think that they would be appropriate to answer the Q?  Obviously the coin condition is poor. But the possibility seems worth pummeling a dead horse. If it is real the mystery is off the charts. 

I am excited to just have something to consider.  I am working to overlay images.  Is there any place that you recommend that I look to find location reference data to spot my coin?  Size, etc?

Thanks again 

K

 

Pics and an explanation were provided in your other thread on the Canadian cent.  Pull that up and read it.

I understand you have health issues, but when somebody takes the time to look up and post info to help you, it can be really annoying when it appears you don't bother to look at it.  Probably not the case but that's how it comes across.

On 8/9/2022 at 1:07 PM, JKK said:

My complaint is not with giving a hosing to the abusive newbie who cops an attitude for no good reason, or asks a question and then whines when they don't like the answer. Give 'em both barrels in that case. My complaint is with the sarcastic troglodytes who think it makes them look cool and smart to give someone a hard time before they even do anything stoopid or hostile. It is the inability to put oneself in someone else's place, or worse yet, the refusal to bother to try. It's a very poor, petty, playground look. It's like if police stopped a car for simply driving, on the grounds that the driver was probably planning to speed at some point.

It's one thing to be blunt with the reality of a coin. If it's a parking lot coin, there is zero wrong with just saying "You're incorrect. It's not an error. It's damage. It's worth one penny." That's not sarcasm; that's an honest answer, and no nube should potty themselves because they got an honest answer that did not smooch their patoot. It's quite another to decide: I am over stoopid questions that keep coming every day. I have a great method to cope with this. I will become a phallus. Likewise, it's not unkind to ask someone to use punctuation and para breaks in a twenty-line paragraph full of misspellings. It's helpful; they'd get more replies. It is not unkind to correct their terminology; that's education. If they then get all behindhurt, that's their problem.

If you (general you)'re over stupid questions, great. Don't answer them at all. You aren't obligated to. Don't volunteer your time to people for whom you feel contempt. Let someone else do it this time. It's so simple. But let them deserve it before going full phallus. Same for if someone's collecting does not square up with what you happen to consider 'the hobby.' Your hobby might not be theirs. It probably isn't mine. If someone wants to collect parking lot coins, well, it doesn't have to make sense to me. Not my collection. Same for parking tokens and elongates, interest in which baffles me completely. Doesn't matter. It's not my money.

I hate bullies, and they aren't going to hear the end of it from me.

I was going make a similar post, but you did a much better job.  I also try to help new collectors and I hope that I don't jump on them unless its for the reasons you listed above.  

I think some new collectors don't understand that these boards are filled with experts and collectors with decades of experience and knowledge of the minting process.  The answers aren't coming from a guy sitting at the end of the bar, they are coming from knowledgeable numismatists, many of which do want to help them learn and grow in the hobby.

I've also noticed that when a newbie gets jumped on for no good reason, somebody will usually follow up with a friendly, helpful post

And don't forget, it's an anonymous chat board.  You get all kinds on here