GoldFinger1969

(1) A proof die and a circulation die are the same -- except for the finer detail on the proof die and the polish, right ? (2) They each used the same press, except in certain cases some coins could use a medal press, right ? Interesting thread.....but FWIW, the RWB Saints Book Thread still has a 71 page lead !!

I'm not an expert on grading and the crack-out thing, but this paragraph from the book seems to indicate that the The Wells Fargo Hoard might have been MULTIPLES larger than the 19,900 coins cited. I don't know what to make of the "authentication events" number, it has to be inflated, to what extent I don't know: "...The present (early-2015) quantities, in excess of 260,000 authentication events, are more than seven times the Gillio/Wells Fargo hoard quantities. Although some rise due to resubmissions is expected, an increase of this magnitude, among only one date/mint, suggests thousands of new coins coming on the market from the same source. With this in mind, it is posited that the total quantity of double eagles in the original group was at approximately 150,000 pieces, possibly more."

I'm not sure I asked this before so apologies to Roger or anybody who answers this....why did Gold Certificates have to be backed by 2/3rds gold coin ? Why did it make a difference if the certificates were backed by gold coin or gold bars ? Unless it was simply to try and justify the "wasteful" expense of striking all the coins in the first place since use in commerce was so low.

I have lots of modern stuff, including commemoratives and specials. I'll sometimes pay up for a 70 but if the premium is alot over a 69 then I'll ususally make repeat purchases in the 69 or 68 grades. A good example would be the National Park Foundation commemoratives of the Saint-Gaudens patterns. Technically, these aren't "coins" since they're not from the U.S. Mint....I do have ASEs and 5-ounce silver both U.S. NCLT and special strikes from private companies. Even on the 5-ounce coins it's tough to tell the difference between a 70 and a 68, let alone a 69. And those coins have HUGE fields.

I'm not surprised, but you would think that collectors pre-1960 would have gotten some coins that were a 70 and properly protected them. Morgan and Saint proofs, Proof and Mint sets in protective plastic, others, etc. I'm surprised -- not shocked -- but surprised. Must be some circulated or other coins with a 69 -- I know there's one Saint DE from the Wells Fargo Hoard, even if it is overgraded. Bunch of 68's -- again, many (but not all) overgraded. For Morgans, I see 10 MS-69's via PCGS and 7 from NGC (probably some double-counts there). Surprised no 1921's in those counts, you would think many preserved them for the return of the coin.

Isn't the metal for quarters (what is it, BTW ?) pretty hard compared to gold or silver? I'm surprised another quarter could leave those "reeding marks" -- they look pretty deep, CB.

What's NIFC ? What coins are you talking about with MS and PF70 ?

It could be roller marks as the coins come off the press, but those look more like regular bag marks. I'll defer to someone more familiar with markings on modern quarters (I assume the coinage is recent).

PERSONAL REFERENCE NOTES & ARTICLES: I just wanted to say something to newcomers about the information you see here, other sites, and articles. Preserve them !! Let me explain. We know that most of the internet is permanent, but you NEVER KNOW when something will be lost...a website is re-booted...shut down....old articles are taken down.....or it's still on the internet but you can't find it. In these cases, Cut-And-Paste and SAVE AS PDF are your 2 best friends. I cut-and-past entire articles, paragraphs, and posts and save them on my PC. That way, I always have them. Most of the stuff I save is on Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles but I have stuff on general coin pricing trends, Heritage Auctions commentaries, Great Collection auctions, Morgan silver dollars, Price Graphs, coin bubbles, old auctions, etc. I have lots of information from 1 or 2 sentences long.... to entire paragraphs...to entire articles....to entire threads here @ NGC Forums. I will save it in a Word Document if short; if longer, I will save it as a PDF. Some of the threads here -- 75 pages and counting, some shorter -- I save every 5 pages or when enough time has passed and new posts are present. Maybe I'll never use most of this information, but I do find it interesting and I will go-back and read my old notes from time-to-time. One of my Word Docs is on Hoards and I have been posting snippets in the shorter Wells Fargo Thread. If anybody asks in the future about Saint hoards for a particular year, there's a good chance I have it in my notes. If you see a Coin Week or CoinWorld article....don't assume it will always be accessible. If you think you want to read it again in the future, either save the key portions or PDF the entire article onto your PC.

What coin ? You just said the grade.

I just have what I picked up from Bowers' and Roger's books on Double Eagles. I'm not sure if bags or small numbers of coins (a few dozen) need to go through customs or anything. No idea about Customs (I think not)....no idea on paperwork (I would think none except between buyer and seller)....I don't know about "declaring" them; it's a private transaction....you might be ASKED but you aren't under any obligation to give documentation (you can always lie ).....I doubt from what Roger says that either Gillio or the sellers would want to divulge where the coins came from (if the seller got them from a bank after saying they were merely bullion but in reality were worth 2x that amount then trouble )....cache and date (I doubt it; again, the sellers want to just get rid of the coins and get their $$$). There are details on the 1908 No-Motto Wells Fargo Hoard that have never been told by Gillio. Maybe he was sworn to secrecy because the sellers feared for their lives or might owe taxes or hoodwinked a bank or government official. Only Ron Gillio can tell us why he won't give more details leading up to the transaction.

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard factoids for the next 3 coins in the series. 1909: A few hundred pieces found in the early-1980’s by MTB, mostly MS 60-63 and AU’s. Prior to the early-1990's, when a fairly large hoard of uncirculated examples was discovered in Europe, the 1909 was considered to be a very scarce issue in any grade and a rare one in choice uncirculated condition or better. The hoard changed all that, however, and now the 1909 is strictly a condition rarity.The 1909 Saint-Gaudens double eagle is an issue that has never been fully appreciated as a difficult to locate coin in high mint state grades. This could be due, in part, to the relative availability of lower level uncirculated examples in the MS60 to MS63 range. A small hoard of a few hundred pieces was located by Manfra, Tordella and Brookes in the early 1980’s, and this made lower uncirculated grade coins available. However, choice and gem quality pieces remain very elusive. 1909/8: Rare up to the 1960’s before Paul Wittlin finds (buyer for James Kelly and then Paramount International Coin Corp) via Paris and Swiss banks. Other hoards found later. 1909-D: 1983 MTB El Salvador Hoard; 49,000 coins. 2 bags of 500 coins came back to U.S. from Central America and also from Europe. Another 2 or 3 bags from Europe. MTB and Akers no more info following Hurricane Sandy and Akers' passing.Akers: “When Gerald Bauman of Manfra, Tordella and Brookes called me one day in 1983 to tell me about the incredible hoard of U.S. double eagles they had just acquired from Central America, he said they had large quantities of scarce, beautiful, original high quality Liberty Heads (1901-S, 1902-S, and 1905-S among others), and also a great many incredible quality Saints including such dates as 1909-S, 1910-S, 1911-S, 1914-S, 1915-S, and 1916-S. Obviously, I was impressed and interested in seeing them and purchasing as many as I could. But then Bauman let the hammer drop and said the hoard also included hundreds of seldom, if ever seen, choice uncirculated and even better examples of the 1908-D No Motto, 1908-D With Motto, 1909-D and 1922-S. Needless to say, I could not get to New York City fast enough and it turned out that everything Bauman had said about the coins was absolutely true, perhaps even understated. After spending an entire afternoon looking at representative samples of each issue, we discussed the terms under which I could buy the coins I wanted. My greatest interest was in the four rarest issues, including the 1909-D, and Bauman said that I could pick out what I wanted on an individual basis if I were willing to pay a substantial premium price and would take a minimum guaranteed quantity of each issue. After seeing the quality of the coins it was clear this was a reasonable request on Bauman’s part and an easy decision on mine to agree. I still rank this as one of my greatest thrills in the coin business, both for myself person-ally and for the many collectors to whom I sold the coins. The 1909-D and 1922-S were the real prizes of the hoard and it is not hyperbole to note that virtually all of the choice, very choice and gem uncirculated examples of both of these issues that are available to collectors today came from the Central American hoard.Before discovery of this hoard in 1983, the 1909-D was considered rarer than either 1908-S, or 1913-S. Most of the several hundred hoard pieces were in lower uncirculated grades and had likely originated in Europe. David Akers commented,The 1909-D has the fourth lowest mintage of the Saint-Gaudens series after the 1907 High Relief, 1908-S and 1913-S. It is actually much more rare than the High Relief or 1913-S, however, and is virtually identical in both overall rarity and condition rarity to the 1908-S. Of the fifty-five Saint-Gaudens issues, I rank the 1909-D as the 16th rarest. The 1909-D is usually found in EF or AU condition and average quality uncirculated pieces are very scarce. Choice or gem quality coins are rare and most collectors looking for a gem 1909-D have been disappointed because there just aren’t that many around.

Get the Whitman Morgan Silver Dollar book.....you'll probably get a Morgan or two at some time even if you don't actively collect. A nice PL or DMPL Morgan is a nice addition to ANY collection. I loved reading Bowers DOUBLE EAGLE book but Liberty or Saint-Gaudens coins are a big step up collecting-wise. But if you like READING about coins, great book and easy to read.

I never heard of that book, maybe the guys here have. I would get the The Red Book I posted 2 posts back....it has prices (which are going to be outdated in any book anyway) and most importantly has information on coins, stories, etc. That Black Book might just be price table after price table which is really not what you need/want.

It's not helping but it's one of MANY variables. At least today, gold clearly likes lower rates (of course) and a weaker dollar.

I'm not sure Sandon, but I think Jessie was getting confused between The Red Book (which covers all coins) and the WHITMAN Red Books which I have and are on Double Eagles and Morgan SDs. Notice the Red at the top then the Black then the Coins. I think she was asking if she bought the right Morgan Silver Dollar book because it had black on the cover though I said to buy the Whitman book called "The Official Red Book: A Guide Book Of Morgan Silver Dollars." Jessie, you want to buy The Red Book and the Whitman Official Book (s). The Whitman MSD book is pictured above; here's The Red Book (notice they are entirely different):

What "black book" -- remember, that the Whitman books say OFFICIAL RED BOOK on them because of the Red banner at the top of the cover....these are NOT THE RED BOOK which is entirely separate (it can be confusing a bit). If by "black book" you mean the 2 Whitman books I have above -- with red banners at the top followed by black and then the pictures of the coins -- then yes, this is the Morgan Silver Dollar book to buy (just get 7th Edition or later).

It will happen here....you just ignore it and move on. Don't get involved in a flame or troll war.....if there's a dispute between 2 heavyweights (there always are) and it takes a nasty turn away from a disagreement on coins per se...just stay out.

Hey Eagle...I saw a pair of Saints go for $1,860 each including bp. One was a 1908 NM Cleaned.....the other was a 1909-S AU-55. Both sold for $1,550 but HA has a 20% BP. Looks like the savvy buyers there included the bp into their bidding. My stink bids didn't hit but I am more hopeful on a 1908 NM MS-67.....I'm winning so far with $1. Hope it holds.......

They actually had a room of women who sewed bags for the coins. Roger covers it in FMTM. Not sure why they had to have them made there.

My books; I also have the Red Book (don't confuse it with the Whiteman books on various coins which have "The Official Red Book" at the top; these are different than THE Red Book which covers all U.S. coinage).

Jessie, you should probably buy the Red Book and I would also recommend the Whitman Morgan Silver Dollars (7th Ed.) book. Both are good reads....good reference books....and you'll definitely use them both in the future (well, at least the Red Book but probably the MSD one, too).

We've ALL been where you are, because we all started out like you. Except many of us did that before the Internet so we were alone. Now, we're all in a position to help one another. So don't fret. Without knowint WHAT you are interested in -- or what your budget is or your long-term goals -- it's tough to make recommendations. You're in no rush, but when you decide what you want or let us know how often or how much you want to buy coins, that will help. For now, I'll help you out by telling you what I collect. I am what you would call a Type Collector....I collect different types of coins of various denominations, sizes, etc. Most of what I have are bullion or bullion-type coins especially silver. I have a few gold coins, including Double Eagles, but these aren't cheap so I don't have many (but that doesn't mean I am not doing research for my next purchase even if it is 2023....or 2024....or even 2025 ). I have silver bullion of different sizes (1 ounce up to 5 ounces)....and some gold coins of different denominations. I also have a bunch of commemoratives, which aren't legal coins but are usually made of silver and in various formats that I find interesting. For instance, National Park Foundation re-creations of many Saint-Gaudens designs except in silver (not gold). I spend lots of time doing research on various coins...reading books on coins....and studying coinage and the economy, coinage and banking, coinage and the economy, and coinage and trade. Plus, hoards and things that changed over time like population survivors. Lots of stuff besides just "collecting" coins !

Back to the 1933's.....I never saw this 2015 CoinWorld article but a friend who collects Saints sent it to me a few months ago. Not sure who Ken Goldman is -- maybe some of the vets know -- but his story is fascinating, especially about the original owner of a 1932 DE who went to the mint to buy the 1933 DE...saw them stacked up....and they wouldn't give it to him (probably because of the EO pending, not because it hadn't been "officially" released, whatever that meant) so he bought a 1933 Eagle and 1932 DE. Kenneth Goldman is a longtime dealer, operating as Kenneth Goldman Inc. in Needham,Mass. He began collecting coins when he was 6 years old. With all the recent news on the case of the 1933 gold $20 double eagles, I have decided to share some of my own experiences with these coins, including how I actually had one of these coins in my hand, some years ago. One experience was a near miss in the late 1970s. Another coin dealer offered me a 1932 double eagle, which I bought for around $18,000 or so. In 1933, the past owner went to the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia. He wanted to buy a 1933 gold $10 eagle and a 1933 gold $20 coin from the Mint. He was able to buy the $10 coin and he saw the 1933 $20 coins piled up onthe back table. Unfortunately, the person at the Mint said that the $20 coins were not released yet; he was able to buy the 1932 double eagle, which I later bought. A couple of years earlier, I actually had a 1933 $20 double eagle in my hands — for a couple of minutes. I remember quite clearly that this was at the Long Beach Expo in California. I was walking around the floor when a prominent dealer from Texas came over to me. I clearly remember his words to me: “Hey, Goldman. Do you want to see a coin that will make the entire coin show stop?” I thought for a minute as to what this could be and said, “Sure, what do you have?” He promptly handed me an envelope which was typewritten with something like “1898-S $20Gold.” My thoughts were that I was being played here, so I continued on with what I thought was a joke. I opened up the envelope and out came a Saint-Gaudens double eagle, reverse facing up. Again, I thought, “What can be so special about an Unc. $20 Saint?” The entire process probably took less than two minutes, but it seemed things were going in somewhat slow motion. Naturally I picked up the coin by the edge and turned it over. Imagine my surprise when I saw that this “ordinary coin” was dated 1933! I remember smiling and asking something like“Tell me about this” or similar. I never got an answer except advice to keep this quiet. Certainly, I knew the history and the illegality of this coin, but I never thought I would have one in my hand. I walked away, thought for a minute, and continued on my way at the convention. I felt that I was very lucky to see one of these in person. I have not relayed this story until David Tripp wrote the book Illegal Tender—Gold, Greed &the Mystery of the Lost 1933 Double Eagle where part of this story was told. In that book,you can see an undated photo of a 1933 double eagle and my comments that this coin in the photo was probably the coin I had in my hand, and this coin was different from the one that was sold in the Sotheby’s auction for over $7 million. All was quiet for some time. Then the book produced another interesting part of this story. I was at home one day, when I got a phone call. It was from the FBI, asking about the 1933 double eagle. I related the story exactly as above and mentioned the name of the dealer who showed me the coin. Unfortunately, the dealer had passed away by the time of the FBI’s call to me. They asked if I had bought the coin. I related that I was in my 20s at that time and I did not have anywhere near the money that this coin would have been worth. As well, I knew of the questionable nature of owning such a coin, so I did not even attempt to ask a price on this. Where the coin is today is unknown to me, but I imagine that it is hidden in a collection somewhere. Further, David Akers always said that there were other 1933 $20 double eagles in Europe. David was never one to make up stories, so my thoughts were that he was speaking from experience.

NewGuy, since the debate was on the legitimatcy of "SP" someone joked around that SSP was around the corner. It's not real....but SP is. Purists vs. Modernists are taking sides....stay clear.