GoldFinger1969

I'm not sure which one(s) I have....I'll have to check...a few are raw, a few are graded. Why would it be so tough to make PF70's/MS70's in the bullion version ?

Some designs are different and have wider dispersion....the 5-ounce ATB and other silver coins are tough to get in a 70 because the large fields show every glitch.

Very interesting...how did you get into the Kroner's ? Many of us like to collect a modern or two from various countries and of various designs (i.e., proof and/or reverse proofs) which is a fun/different way to collect gold every now and then (obviously, gold is alot more than silver for most of us ).

There is so much useful information in RWB's Saints DE book that it includes the footnotes and bibliography. For me, I went back over the book and just scanned for relevant sentences or paragraphs on hoards, coinage, gold flows, etc. I cut-and-pasted them into my Word Doc that keeps all this useless trivia but figured it might be of interest to any of you still with us as we approach 75 pages on this thread. Here's 1 tidbit I found very interesting: "If one estimates that $1 million in coin left the country per week from October through December 1931, followed by $5 million per week through the first week of February, 1932, the total export to France, Switzerland, Belgium and other countries would have been $37 million. Considered as ordinary international business, this would have been a small sum; however, as coins intended specifically for hoards it was a considerable amount. When gold coins were later repatriated to the United States it is possible that many of these came from personal hoards, rather than normal trade payments as commonly assumed." These gold flows were partly a result of Europe being deeper into recession/depression and by 1931 all of them off the gold standard while the U.S. remained until 1933. But Roger's analysis flies with what we know: there weren't many bags of gold coins found in Europe (occasionally, yes, as Bowers tells us and I will print later on) but mostly gold coins from SDBs or individuals. A few here...a few dozen here...maybe a big stash at 1 bank which consolidated dozens or hundreds of SDBs.....etc. Guys like Paul Wittlin made a living just making contacts at various European banks that held these coins.

I cracked up at this....really fell into it.....good one, Zad !!

Are there any books on Roosters ? Year-by-year stuff....like Roger did with DEs here or Akers and Bowers did in smaller treatises.

I'm surprised there weren't more Roosters struck as the U.S. coins (including DEs) were very popular with the French. This would include striking 100 Franc coins, closer to 1 ounce. But anything, really. Huge incentive to strike their own coins with U.S. coins going for double the spot price of gold.

So they worked up to midnight at year-end to get in "last licks" on coins ? You couldn't use the 1907 or MCMVII dies for a few days in early-January 1908 ? With currency, the dates can be years out of date when they are printed; other items on the face/back change.

Was this HL Dodge a member of the Dodge copper dynasty ?

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I would also think the proofs were held by actual coin collector enthusiasts.

So 1878-0's were never minted or just delayed ?

I think it's more the case that the semi-rare coins are impacted by trickles of new coins coming in from around the world. The ultra-rares it's highly unlikely we find any new ones (possible, but VERY unlikely). And like you said, when you already have tens of thousands of a coin more coming doesn't impact things. It's the coins with a few dozen to a few hundred and even a few thousand that get impacted.

If you don't like gold coins, same thing applies to silver coins. Just less impact from overseas hoards because they weren't really used there.

Sort of.....for "softer" metals there's always been an understanding that things like bag marks will be present. True....but pre-Internet more so than pre-TPG we just didn't have accurate counts. The totals for commons and semi-rare Saints listed in Bower's 2004 Red Book differ by a large amount for some coins vs. Roger's 2015 Saints DE book. Imagine a book like the Red Book or some other source from the 1990's.

Wait, haven't you been collecting Roosters for some time ? They're gold coins.

Well, if Leech is calling him a fraud that's different than crook. Sounds like Dodge rubbed Leech the wrong way rather than did something unethical or criminal. Like everyone else here, I'm speculating.

I think the conditions we talk about in this thread are different for all different coins: Moderns, Commemoratives, Gold, Silver, and Small Denomination U.S. coins, esp. pre-1960. I have both Saints and Morgans and without even going into condition the rarity for some years/mints would vary greatly from the stated mintage for that year pre-TPG and pre-Internet.

"Rarity" can be defined several ways: absolute numbers....price (because demand is high)....relative to other coins of a similar type...condition (grade)....etc. For my #1 interest, Saints, you have the registry players.....the Type and Gold collectors....and then the general investor class among the public buying the surplus for a few coins with tens of thousands available. So depending on where the coin supply exhausts demand, that determines scarcity (and price).

I know overall quality wasn't as good...and there was the issue with the proof surface-appeal....but I thought lots of coins did come out very nicely. No 70's ? Wow... Also, if a particular coin year/mint had an upper threshold for that particular strike, I thought it was "graded on a curve" and if no coins for a particular year/mint were really top-notch, then the best of that year would be the 70's.

Interesting that $20 Saint-Gaudens DEs sold for $75 and up in France in 1946 after the war ended. The French Franc was losing ground terribly after WW I and obviously after WW II (Vichy France). I don't know if those premium prices for DEs persisted and how they were impacted by Roosters or the rebuilding of the country and passage of time. A 100% premium to the value of the gold content seems high -- I'll do some more research and report back.

I always wondered about alignment....because that 185-ton press that struck the MCMVII UHRs had to hit the coin/pattern 7-9 times. Your margin for error there is close to nil.

Obviousley, they had a back-and-forth on other stuff. Maybe it was personal which is why he called him a "fraud" so quickly in a short telgram. Who knows....maybe the Assay Commission was supposed to meet at a certain time....Dodge wanted to go to a saloon or horse track or something....he tells Leech his mother is sick and he has to be near her bedside and can Leech postpone the meeting a few hours or days....Leech finds out Dodge lied to him and is teed off. Something like that. Sounds personal, if you ask me.

Metal press had a lot more striking tonnage than a toggle press I presume ? What if you struck the coins multiple times with a toggle press -- would that improve the "look" of a coin and give it a proof look even if technically it was not a proof coin because it wasn't struck on a metal press ?

Got it...didn't think and realize you can't cut a gold bar to give someone their gold if they want to redeem the gold certificate. You need the coins depending on how big the Gold Certificate denomination was. Thanks !