GoldFinger1969

I just assumed the bag tore at that point as it was worn. The entire BAG of coins was stolen -- not just the coins -- so nobody was stealing out of the bag over many hours/days/weels.

In an era of online information (let alone the Greysheet) information and auctions....why is the Blue Book still being printed ? I get the Red Book for sentimental and historical purposes and to give newcomers an annual book that is great to start off with.

Jessie, what kinds of coins ARE you interested in ? Small denomination U.S. coins of the last century ? Silver coinage ? Silver bullion ? Gold coins ? Gold bullion ? Foreign coins ? Commemoratives ? A mixture ?

A perfect example of when this 10-point system is OK to use is on the 2015 American Eagle UC Proof Gold coin I bought at FUN 2020. I think it's now PF70 UC -- so who cares how it is graded as long as it's a 10 or a 9.9 (PF69).

He'll either submit it to NGC or PCGS...or he can sell the 1927-D for $2,000,000 and show us the receipt. Derek, I need better photos because Liberty looks like she is either wearing a mask or went 15 rounds with Muhammed Ali or Mike Tyson. I see lots of bagmarks or something on the right leg....the reflection of the photo light isn't telling me anything about the fields. No reverse pic doesn't help, either. And I see NO MINT mark which means if this is a legit coin it's a regular 1927 Saint.

Some buyers who borrowed $$$ to buy BitCoin and crypto -- like the firm MicroStrategy -- can't hold like some retail holders who aren't on borrowed $$$.

So true. I am teed off I didn't talk more to my grandfather (maternal) who was in the Merchant Marines and travelled the world. I believe he would have known about Saint coinage and my mother believes he or her mother's parents (my great-grandparents) had several coins because they did turn them in during the 1930's. Maybe my grandfather even used gold coins overseas. I don't know. Maybe my mothere knows -- gonna ask her next time.

Unless you had 2 or more crooks working there, very risky to approach another employee about a potential theft and then find out you got reported. Fired and jail time, no doubt. What's amazing is that Mint officials today INSIST that the Mint's "meticulous record keeping" preclude any 1933 Saint from leaving "legally" : The gold books for the 1933 were in balance WITHOUT the Langbord Saints (which leads to the probability of an exchange) Their "meticulous" reocords had the date wrong on 1st production (March 15th, 1933) which we now know was March 2nd, 1933 (thanks to RWB for doing some "meticulous" research ). They meticulously lost an entire bag of 1928 DEs. Other than these miscues, these guys are Joe Accountant !

There wouldn't have been a need to go back and start from Bag #1 to do an updated inventory. As long as each shelf or storage barrel or whatever was untouched, you just go by what changed "up front." It was tough to get to the back of the cages...no walk room....so the only coins that tended to move were upfront. With the cages locked and with the vault having time and combination locks, it's unreal that an entire bag of 1928's were stolen. A few loose coins, I could see someone getting them out. An entire bag....250 coins at one time....or worse, a few coins a day over a few weeks ? Hard to believe.

Yup, Olympics....nobody knows. The 1928 DE was the most produced Saint-Gaudens in history. 8.8 MM minted...half released to FRB's for distribution. Roger's Saints DE book says that $50 MM was shipped directly from the Mint and large amounts may have gone to European, South American, and other foreign savers. 1928 was the last year for plentiful exports of gold coins until 1932. 130 delivery dates of 1928's from the Coiner to the Super.....all struck between Janaury 5th and June 7th, 1928. Practically every day they arrived. Many went to Argentina and Brazil for trade shipments. No details available on obverse or reverse dies used. Over 150,000 1928's are estimated to be available today, with over 16,000 in MS65-66 grades and about 150 in higher grades. The vault seal for Vault F/Cage #4 dated 6/25/29 said there were 200,000 1928 DEs.

Wait a second.....isn't a bag of 250 Double Eagles about 16 pounds ? 250 ounces (forget troy vs avidipourous) is about 16 pounds (16 ounces = 1 pound). I've held a roll of 20 1-ounce gold coins....I think I could "lift" 25 of them. According to RWB and also FMTM....there were 2 large vaults in the basement of the 3rd Philly Mint....each was entered via an 8-ton vault door which had a time lock, plus 2 smaller doors after that one with combination locks. The schematic in FMTM is tough to read, but it looks like there are 6 cages in Vault F (the gold vault) and I believe that Cage 1 was the one that McCann supposedly broke into (I guess #1 was closest when you entered the vault and had the most recent coins; Cage 6 would have been further back). As for how many bags of 250 gold coins.....Roger's Bag article says: "... The cage was supposed to contain more than $18 million in 1928 double eagles, over $35 million 1929 pieces, another $58 million double eagles dated 1931, and additional $20, $10, $5 and $2.50 pieces, totaling $166,132,130." So $111 MM for 1928, 1929, and 1931 Saints....then the other $20 DEs and the $10/$5/$2.50 pieces. Net-Net.....over 22,000 BAGS of double eagles @ 250 DE's per bag....in 1 cage !! So 6x as many for all 6 cages or over 130,000 bags in the entire vault. There was probably at least 25,000 bags in Cage 1 when you include the miscellaneous $20 DEs plus the other bags for the smaller pieces. Now, these cages may have been "overfilled" beyond what they should have been....supposedly, there were gold coins on the floor and torn bags here-and-there. Hopefully Roger will chime in here because FMTM has small lettering on the pics and there may be more details that he has. I don't have it even in my personal fact sheets on the 1933's and 1928's.

As Roger's 1928 DE Bag story tells it....$5,000 was alot of money. The Secret Service and police were called in right-away....fingerprints...rooms locked and sealed. Dressel, the Philly Mint Super, had (blindly ?) signed a statement that the books were correct when he assumed control of the Mint. When the discrepancy was found -- even thought NOBODY higher-up though he was responsible or involved -- he was legally on the hook for the shortfall. That led to the push for legislation to absolve him and future personnel from thefts that took place through no fault of their own.

SSSP....Super Special Specimen Proof.

This is so true...and as I said to JJ above, your work, reading, and education don't necessarily have to lead to a purchase. I am fascinated by the circumstances surrounding the stolen 1928 Saints and questionable 1933 Double Eagles but I won't be getting one anytime soon (unless I win PowerBall and EC is willing to sell !! ). While I still am looking for future Saint (and Morgan) purchases....I've also expanded my knowledge and notes to include interesting facts on high-priced sales of those coins....hoards....and interesting stories involving the coins like their use in backing Gold/Silver Certificates to their usage overseas to their use as circulating currency here and elsewhere. I can share my knowledge then on these topics just like others helped me. It's not just about going to an LCS or bidding online !

We were all in the situation you are in at one time or another, Jessica. Are there any areas of coin collecting you want to concentrate or focus on ? You've asked us about a few different coins, but what you pursue going forward may be totally different. Also, what you FOLLOW and educate yourself on might be something you don't collect because it's either too difficult to collect and/or too expensive. Nothing wrong with following a coin type thought it certainly is more fun buying every now and then. There's also nothing wrong with just collecting all different kinds of coins and commemoratives -- what we call a "Type" collector -- and being a jack-of-all-trades sort of. I actually have elements of this in my own collection.

There was gold missing in the count with the 1928's. There was NO gold missing with regards to the 1933's. Veeerrrry Interesting, as Artie Johnson used to say on Laugh-In.

They couldn't find anything to do an investigation back in 1937 so I doubt we can do anything 85 years later. I wonder if there's any chance of ID'ing those coins via the dies. Maybe Roger or one of the vets here can answer that. Probably not; they'd have likely tried it by now. And if somehow those coins got into general collector circulation and many are now in holders graded...if you got them ID'd as part of the Stolen 500 they could be confiscated (or maybe you'd just have to monetize it by sending the U.S. government $20 !! ). It's just amazing when you think about it......25 1933 DEs they say came from the cashier they can track and use in a court of law in 2013....but 500 coins stolen from a locked and sealed cage/vault, no leads and no idea who could have done it, as if it was a bathroom and eveyrbody at the Philly Mint had access to that room and area.

For those following this thread....Mark was correct as I indicated above regarding CAC stickering of Wells Fargo 1908 No-Motto Saints. I found the quote in my notes regarding no stickering....the coins CAC has not stickered from The Wells Fargo No-Motto Hoard (or any 1908 NM's for that matter) are those graded MS-68 and MS-69, the top 2 grades all of which but 1 (MS-68) I believe are from the WF Hoard. There are 1908 NM's -- WF and non-WF -- that are CAC-worthy in lots of grades up to MS-67. But that's it.

Crypto continues to get hit. Any more weakness and we could get forced selling if we go below 16,000 on BitCoin.

Question....if you use a super-fine polish that removes microscopic materials invisible to the naked eye...combined with a much nicer Cameo appearance...couldn't you end up with a much nicer-looking coin that only under magnification can you see loss of detail ?

I agree completely.

If we go with one of the new grading systems, I'm pulling a Dennis Miller: "I....am....outta here....."

Huh ? No grade points from 59-79 ? WTH..... So basically it's an 80 point scale. We're gonna replace a well-known 70 point scale with an unknown 80-point one ?

Definitely impacted by Covid and the stimulus checks and stay-at-homes. So much $$$ flowed into stuff costing $50 - $1,000.

I'll bet if the stolen 1928's were found and trading today, they'd probably trade at a 40% premium to regular MS-65 1928's...or close to $3,200 vs. $2,200 for a non-stolen one.