GoldFinger1969

Saint-Gaudens Hoard By Dates: More hoard tidbits for the next coins in the series for which I have hoard info: 1909-S: David Akers wrote of handling several hundred 1909-S hoard coins at one time, usually graded in the low-60’s, from the MTB 1983 Hoard. A typical 1909-S double eagle is well struck with good detail in most areas except the torch hand and top of the torch. Surfaces often display mint frost tinged with red-gold and this is usually associated with coins from the El Salvador Hoard discovered in 1983. 1910: A few thousand uncirculated/MS coins were found in the 1990’s via European banks Mostly MS60-63. The 1990s European bank coins were abraded from handling and transport. These were consistent with the large majority of European bank hoards from decades earlier and grade between MS60 and MS63 or occasionally MS64. Correlation with authentication company and auction records indicates that of the total mintage for the 1910, approximately 400,000 coins were shipped to Europe in exchange payments and 64,000 were sent to Central or South America. Only a small proportion of coins ever circulated in the United States or Canada. 1910-D: Numerous uncirculated 1910-D double eagles remain from consolidated bags that resided in European banks until sometime after World War II. Could have come from the Kaiseroda Mine Hoard. Most of these grade between MS61 and MS64, though gems do occasionally appear on the market. 1910-S: A small hoard of about 100 uncirculated pieces turned up in a Swiss bank in 1981. Also a group of 1,000 coins (four mint bags) was discovered in Central America in 1983. Consequently, the 1910-S is relatively common in uncirculated condition, at least through the near-gem level of preservation. Many more were evidently returned to the United States, probably from Europe, based on the condition of the coins. At least a few coins were acquired by collectors at the time of issue. Coin collector John M. Clapp’s acquisition notes state that he purchased his 1910-S double eagle directly from the San Francisco Mint in 1910. Others might have acquired coins in person or by mail from the mint, or from the pyx coins for those who were members of the Annual Assay Commission for 1911.

I had forgotten Charles Barber screwed him on that commemorative coin 10 years earlier. Thank God Saint-Gaudens started redesigns on the $20 Double Eagle and $10 Eagle first instead of focusing on the small denomination coins. He died mid-way through 1907. I tell you....you see those images of hundreds, even thousands standing outside banks during the Panics and runs on banks....you wonder why more people didn't hold gold and/or put their $$$ under their pillows at night. I don't know where he got the figures for "Percentage Of Total Mintage US Gold Coins Returned to Mint and Melted Down 1933-40" but here's what he showed on-screen: $20 DE @ 39% $10 Eagle @ 47.2% $5 @ 33.6% $3 @ 10.8% $2.50 @ 15.7% $1 @ 0.21% He also cited mintages for $20 DEs vs. $10 Eagles at 70,278,596 vs. 14,868,095....2.2 MM certified vs. 412,000. I guess from these we can estimate WHEN the show was produced because there was no copyright date during the credits. Rick used Ebay ASKING prices as a comp....I hope he doesn't mislead people. $1,995 per coin. I see recent sales on Heritage for $1,200 - $1,400 for a PCGS MS-62. That's a pretty steep premium unless folks get educated about the hobby from the good narrative he spins and become serious collectors with future purchases at more advantageous pricing.

BTW, Roger, the show is on the 1932's which I am sure are much more plentiful than the 1933's (I believe there are 35-40 in all conditions). I'm sure there are tens of thousands of 1932's to get the pricing down to a level suitable for the investor class so they don't have to pay registry or type collector prices.

I'm watching it now...I wanted to see the pricing on the 1932 MS-62's. He clearly borrowed facts and passages from your book in his discussion. The book is upright on his table next to the coins he is selling. Other coin books are on a shelf behind him. He even used the word "renaissance."

So he wanted a scientist instead of a politician ? Could ordinary citizens -- maybe a well-known small businessman -- get on the AC ?

I would have given them 1 coin to verify and kept the other 9. Or gotten it in writing that the coins MUST be returned, pending a settlement similar to the Fenton-Farouk situation.

Yup. And by "involved" you mean STOLE them in violation of what was being discussed with the family. Liars. Nothing changed from the 1930's and 1940's.

I should have known that from the re-make of "Wild Wild West" with Kevin Kline and Will Smith !!

I think it was the Treasury personnel or the predecessor of the Secret Service. The articles on that period do use the phrase "Secret Service."

No, they were generally not allowed after April 12, 1933. But I don't see any legal dictum that states that -- it was most likely to prevent loss of gold from trade-ins from worn coins. I agree that the government didn't want wide-scale availability to the public. But I do not believe this applied to the usual perks and privileges afforded Mint workers, especially higher-ups. I haven't seen too many primary sourced discussions of the gold-for-gold exchange policy aside from the Froman Letter. But I've never heard of one that would indicate the policy was meant to absolutely prohibit ALL exchanges including those already promised to Mint personnel. Or those that already took place but weren't distributed. You keep harping on the "preponderance" argument and the civil course of action. Since the government suffered no harm from an exchange but collectors and dealers did, I believe that unless you can tell me that there's an order or letter absolutely prohibiting distribution of the 1933 DEs before a certain date, no prohibition should be enforced. Release dates were not black-and-white. Nobody thought 1933s were NOT going to be used/distributed. They minted the suckers up through May 1933 !!

You're just speculating. If someone at the Philly Mint sold them to Switt, what crime did he commit ? They could have been the personal property of the seller....could have been coins of numismatic value. Someone in the Philly Mint might have come into the coins properly and or done a harmless exchange and then sold them to Switt or someone else. Yeah, once the order to melt all coins was known, you'd probably want to get a few of whatever you could for every year. I don't think that's a crime for all non-1933's or the 1933's, either. By your own admission, you don't like U.S. gold coins, so I don't expect you to see things through the eyes of a collector of that age.

All at the Mint...maybe. Not necessarily the vault. You couldn't get into the vault. Except to steal 1928's......

Define "illegal." Are you saying that the Mint higher-ups couldn't have exchanged a few (paid for in other gold coin) if they wanted them for numismatic reasons ? There was NO OFFICIAL prohibition on the release of 1933 DEs -- they just never were because of what was happening in March and April 1933. If you wanted some 1933's once you realized they'd all be melted, who's to say that a Mint higher-up didn't let a mid-level Mint worker have that privilege ? And if they had wanted to do it in 1933 or 1934 or 1935...but didn't have the $$$....maybe they were told they could do it up to the day of melting. Or something like that. Charles Barber and other Mint officials took advantage of their status, as long as everything was an arms-length transaction...ho harm, no foul. Also, the Coiner had 1933's at his cage. Both from the assay commission plus the undercount of 1932's.

Smart move...he created free publicity, driving up the price !!

Maybe, althought I disagree. And it's been established that many of the facts that the government & Tripp relied on were false.

You obviously haven't read the advertisements and correpsondences among dealers, collectors, etc. from that time. The 1933 was considered in a group of "tough" coins to obtain not some unique stand-alone. It's really no different than the belief that the 1927-D was plentiful because many people who said they saw one or knew of a sale in fact were referencing 1927's or 1927-S's. Confusion and lack of a central TPG-like counting mechanism made knowledge of how many coins were out there very difficult.

What is ? The rarity of the 1931s and 1932s alongside the 1933's as opposed to a separate category ?

And imagine this in the 1930's where most of the information is dealer-to-dealer talk, rumours, hearsay, whatever.

I think there may have been a game of chicken going on. If you wanted a coin...cheap...you'd say you recently sold or heard of some sales at a nicely discounted price. Maybe you panic the other guy into selling. Certainly this was alot more true in the 1930's when information was scarce than today when prices are a few clicks away.

Definitely the case.....and with some coins like the 2009 UHR, it's almost impossible to tell the difference between a 70 and a 69....sometimes even a 68 (unless you're a super-sharp grader/collector).

Registry & Type Collectors: We've talked here and in other threads about how many people collect Saint coinage. I looked at the total number of grading events at PCGS and NGC for the 1908 No Motto. Interestingly, the premium in high grades really collapses right at the MS-65 level. If you include that grade, you have a maximum of 65,000 coins available in that grade or higher (it's less, accounting for double-counts/re-submissions). Exclude the MS-65 level, and you have about 18,000 coins in MS-66 and higher, which does NOT totally cover the estimated 25,000 Type/Partial-Registry player estimate I saw a few years ago. The premium here accelerates in a way that the jump from MS-64 to MS-65 does not. It appears that demand for the Registry and Type collectors is satiated by that 65 grade which helps zero-in on the number of collectors. So those guestimates I had for registry, type, and investor participants in Saint coinage look like they are in the ballpark.

The history I am talking about is in the books and research that I have read or done. It's certainly NOT on the label so it's not being used to market. But I am admittedly unique in that regard. That's one perspective. But art and coins are not interchangeable so I don't think someone like me, hoping to eventually get my "artwork" in the form of an MCMVII HR, wants some painting for my wall. I don't.

I don't think they'll track those asset classes.

Could be as few as 2 bidders if they both want "the best" and there's only 1 coin with that pedigree.

OK...so that figure above is MINTAGE not SURVIVORS. Got it !! It seems like record-keeping over in Europe/France isn't as detailed as here in the U.S....and the books on the coins don't seem to focus on this information either. Saint-like books like those by RWB, Akers/Ambio, and Bowers seem rare or non-existent for Roosters and other European coins. I'll look around for some primers.