GoldFinger1969

Thanks Roger....I could be wrong, but this looks more like a coffee table book with glossy pics rather than one with extensive research. Maybe I'm wrong. Whatever, the price was right. If it IS a coffee table book, maybe I'll reach out to Kramer.....

Yeah, I saw postings by folks on other forums that they had Mint/Treasury investigators calling on their ex-wives, neighbors, co-workers, etc...for any dirt on them (them being folks who I believe were going to be called to testify or submit evidence on behalf of the Langbords). Why would YOU be facing a lawsuit -- for uncovering evidence that was already made public ? I never heard of that. Who would be suing you, the Mint/Treasury or the defense people ? Unreal...... I am not a lawyer but it seems weird that something mentioned in a trial could not be published after the fact. Unless the (defense attorneys/Langbords) considered it "their property." Glad I didn't go to law school....

I'm unaware of this...NSM is not making their archives/copies of their magazine available to numismatists and/or researchers ?

Awesome !! Thanks, Disme ! Did it get any publicity when found in 1996 ? Probably not, as the whole saga with the 1933 DEs hadn't started yet.

Fascinating....I commend you on your dilligence. Some of the stuff you find is really interesting...obscure but interesting ....and obviously that Bartholomew Letter which advanced the striking date by 13 days was CRITICAL. Just the fact that the other side didn't even know it while talking about their "spectacular record-keeping" shows they have egg on their face.

Metal press or Medal press ? I've seen both on this forum. If it IS "medal" press I presume it was used primarily for all the commemorative medals they struck. Or maybe not....

He says that many coins are overpriced, including ones he bid on but dropped out. He wrote a really good piece a year ago that revisited a column he wrote in 2010. Basically, he went over what he said at the time and checked how accurate his comments were. I personally LOVE columns like this, they serve as a kind of Truth-O-Meter on your posts. Here's what he wrote on the 1857-S in 2010 and then again in 2021: 1857-S/2010: The discovery of more than 5,000 high quality examples on the S.S. Central America is what really jump-started the market for Type One double eagles. There are hundreds of collectors who started out buying a single Uncirculated 1857-S and then became hooked by the Type One series. I've noted some confusion about proper valuation for these coins. As an example, there is a CDN Bid of $7,200 for MS64 examples. This bid represents the value of a coin in a gold foil holder with the original box. An NGC MS64, which is clearly a coin that was broken out of a PCGS holder and likely upgraded, is worth less than this; in some cases as much as 10%. As a collector, if you pay a strong retail price for an Uncirculated 1857-S double eagle, try to be patient and wait for a nice quality piece in the original PCGS holder. 1857-S/2021: I can’t add much to what I wrote 10 years ago about this date. It is interesting to look at very high-grade SSCA 1857-S double eagles. In 2010 a CAC approved PCGS MS66 in its original packaging would have cost around $35,000. Today, a similar coin would cost around $30,000. There haven’t been a ton of PCGS/CAC MS67s which have sold, but the most recent APR was just $96,000; down considerably from a 2014 auction record of $152,750 and even $120,000 in January 2020. A remarkable $282,000 was paid for a wildly toned PCGS/CAC MS67 in May 2019. In my opinion, this was a huge overpay for a coin which I felt, at the time, was worth around $150,000. Complete article here: https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/articles/san-fsan-francisco-double-eagles-a-date-by-date-analysis-part-one

I've followed him for a few years....he talks about Double Eagles (more Liberty's than Saints) but he seems to really save the bulk of his commentaries for Southern Gold coins and gold coins smaller than double eagles. That was the first column solely on Saints/High Reliefs (as opposed to mentioning them in a blended article) that I can remember in years.

Doug Winter, from his blog piece on The Million Dollar Liberty Eagle: "...Before the Trophy Coin Era (which really began in earnest around 2020), the price of rare coins went up incrementally. A coin like an AU 1875 eagle was worth $150k in the 2000s, $250k in the early 2010s, and $350k in the early 2020s. Given its price history, one would have expected the next price increment for this date to have been $450k (maybe even $500k) in 2022. But this isn’t how values work today, and as a result we have yet another record price which is multiples higher than the previous peak of $372,000. I will freely admit that I was stunned by the price."

Same reason some people (more) collect art....and some collect classic cars (fewer).....and some collect stamps....or comic books....or movie props....or whatever. To me, the interesting thing is that you have the POTENTIAL for certain series to slide between pure bullion collectors and pure numismatic collectors. Saints, Libertyt's, Morgans, and the various Eagle/Half-Eagle/Quarter-Eagle collectors I would include in that bunch. Again, I segued into Saints from bullion and a stray purchase of the 2009 UHR. Well, the 1933 Double Eagle was purchased by a non-collector, Stuart Weitzman. I agree that large numbers are unlikely as per your post....but I think it's increasing. The big potential is that there are more wealthy and super-wealthy people that if they accidentially get into coins or if they re-discover a passion they had as youths, you get some Big $$$ into the hobby. Not saying it's good or bad, just saying they're there and SOME OF THEM are going to wander in. The art world never or rarely had Wall Street types buying 30 or 50 years ago. Today, they are a constant source of buying. But lots more with liquid financial net worths over $50 MM and $20 MM and even $10 MM. If you have $10 MM in financial assets and homes largely or fully paid for (primary, vacation or shore)...that's ALOT of financial firepower to put into coins. You can spend 5% on PM's/coins and that's $500,000. I'm not predicting that is going to happen....I'm saying this is a hobby where you get a small increase in the general population buying....or a tiny increase in the wealthy buying.....or a MINISCULE increase in the super-wealthy buying....and you are talking Big $$$.

I don't think it was the average coin collector; if anybody, maybe the dealers.

I always considered myself unique but maybe I'm not. Look, could I see myself spending $250 on a really nice Lincoln Penny or Jeffereson or Buffalo Nickel or some quarter just to add to my collection ? Sure....but I would be shocked if I added more than 1 or 2 more in my lifetime. Not so the other 4 categories you listed above.

That's still true even if it is UNFAIR. No doubt, 1 or 2 or 3 heavy-hitters with Big $$$ can skew a previously smoothly functioning coin market and price. That's the risk that we all run. I get what you are saying, yet at the same time...NOBODY complains when the same heavy-hitters will skew prices upward for stuff they ALREADY own. With crypto people were trying to make $$$. Hopefully, that isn't the case with coins or bullion. Nobody "enjoys" investing in crypto or BitCoin. You should enjoy this hobby and the thrill of the chase and finding and reading about rare coins and coins you want in your own personal collection.

YES !!! Managed to get a used copy of Bowers Liberty Double Eagles book for under $20....brand-new, I saw it a few years ago for $300. I haven't seen many new or used for sale.Since I don't collect Liberty DEs I really didn't want to pay full retail for the book but to get it for under 1/10th the new price it's worth it to read and have in my personal coin book library. Probably a very limited press run given the niche subject matter and the cost of the book new.

Yeah, very interesting....and in an other article talking about the Bass Auction he mentioned a coin that was AGGRESSIVELY cleaned.....you could EASILY see the hairlines from cleaning in the upper left quadrant of the coin, an 1833 Quarter Eagle which was graded PCGS PR63 Cameo. It did not CAC. They were plain as day, even to me, and the coin still got a grade in the 60's. https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2022/10/3/six-bass-i-coins-i-liked-an-analysis

Roger, if you struck those HR's exactly the same with the same dies and polish and same force....but one HR was on a regular toggle press from that era and the other was on the medal press from that time.....how would they compare ?

Was that letter about the 1st 1933 DEs being struck on March 2nd that you found....in the archives solo or digitized ? How did you find something like that ? Did you do a keyword search under "Bartholomew" ??

WC, 40 or more years ago, only the Truly Rich could pay big prices for coins and pursue the top-end of registries or whatever they were called back then. Most of the famous collections were owned by wealthy businessmen or people from families with Big $$$. Remember, back then being called a MILLIONAIRE was a big thing (ask Thurston Howell III !! ). Today....the number of people with unlimited $$$ greatly exceeds that from 30 years ago let alone 50 years ago. Just imagine 1 or 2 coin collectors as kids who work in Silicon Valley and now are each worth $50 MM at age 32 -- nothing compared to the real winners out there. But those young adults can now EASILY spend MILLIONS on coins. Decades ago, if they were each successful, they might have tens of thousands to spend assuming they were willing to part with dollars that were more dear (because they didn't have as much) because maybe they made $150,000 a year when the average salary was $25,000 a year. It doesn't take many super-rich folks to enter this hobby and drive up prices, especially if they either throw Big $$$ around or focus on Top Pop coins. Doug Winter's blog mentioned he was recently contacted by a wealthy venture capitalist who was all set to spend Big $$$ assembling a collection before it got too "confusing" for him and dropped the idea.

Nice article on what to look for in buying an MCMVII High Relief by Doug Winters: https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2022/12/13/what-i-look-for-when-im-buying-an-uncirculated-1907-high-relief-double-eagle Bookmark his blog, he has lots of other good articles especially if you are into Carson City gold, Liberty DEs, and small denomination gold coins pre-1900. He doesn't write as much on Saints but does every now and then.

There were lots of big banks in the cities where the Mints were.....why were they even doing pay-outs and accepting deposits if regular banks could do that ? Why not just strike coins and give tours ?

Since you brought up research and the NNP....do you know if the original Louis Froman (Buffalo) letter asking about gold exchanges was saved and is in the NNP ? I know it was referenced by Mint higher-ups in 1933. I'm wondering if there were other exchange letters sent in to the 3 Mints or if that isn't something that would have been saved and thus on the NNP. Might be too niche.

You're saying Americans are buying non-PM British coins, the equivalent of our pennies, nickels, and quarters ? Or is it silver and gold coins like British crowns and the like ?

Sounds about right. When you say 2 MM "active" collectors, you mean ADULTS as opposed to kids being guided by their parents I take it ? What IS the price range for an 1884-CC Morgan, GSA or non-GSA ? Agreed. You can keep alot of Morgans as inventory compared to other coins.

Doug Winters blog has some great insights into various areas of the coin market. Even though I often am not interested in the particular coins, it's good from a macro perspective to see where the $$$ are flowing. He has good insight. https://raregoldcoins.com/blog?category=Market Blog His column on the Bass Part 1 sale was great. Unreal that Harry Bass bought an 1860 Liberty Double Eagle (PCGS PR 65+ CAMEO/CAC) for $2,200 in 1970 and held it for 53 years !!! Realized $1MM ex-bp; that's 12.5% a year which is one of the highest returns for a major coin I can recall. Usually, the returns are mid-single digits.