GoldFinger1969

Agreed, it's not that hard to get recent auction data from some online sources, including NGC. It's the actual CHART going back several years -- and longer -- that is very useful, IMO. That's what I liked so much about Roger's new Saints book -- a 1976-2015 price table for every year/mint.

Roger, when did gold get revalued up to $35/oz. ?

Any particular reason for the rattler ? Or is any older slab good ?

I see the same "lag" on other Saints too, WC, and they are sold pretty frequently. It looks like they have the raw data -- recent auctions -- uploaded, whatever they do to calculate price is just off. Maybe it's a smoothed monthly average or something, dunno.

What's up with the chart and numbers for the NGC Price Guide, NGC ? This is -- or could be -- a REALLY USEFUL tool for collectors and investors, especially novices. Instead the numbers are all over the place. Let's check out an MS62 1907 High Relief. Should go for about $12,000 give-or-take. But the chart has it at $19,000: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/united-states/gold-double-eagles/70/history/19135/62/ I'm not sure what the algorithim is to calculate the latest prices, because I only see sales data from late-2019, but even that isn't anywhere near $19,000: https://www.ngccoin.com/auction-central/us/saint-gaudens-20-1907-1933-pscid-70/auctions/1907-high-relief-20-ms-fgrade-62-tgrade-62-coinid-19139 Am I using this tool correctly ? I don't expect it to be super-accurate, but within 5-10% shouldn't be a problem. 30-40% seems really off. I think the trend of the chart is still useful over longer periods of time, but it would be better if the end-point for the recent data was closer to reality.

Fair points, Mark.....like you said, HA doesn't set the price. But it sure is strange not to see any commentary below on ANY special or unique or pricey coin detailing the lineage, what makes it special, etc. I'm going through some of the catalogs from HA I picked up at FUN -- it's amazing what you guys have on some of those coins.

Both you guys should report back and share your information/reports. The Survey Monkey site is down....I'll try again later.

Can Heritage maybe speak up as to why a coin that has appeared twice on their system in less than 8 years is suddently worth 20-30x as much ? It does nobody any good -- including HA -- if some sucker with lots of $$$$ buys this at the asking price. BTW...it IS an asking price. It hasn't been sold for that amount. And for any coin costing over $10,000 -- let alone $100,000 -- you better have a few paragraphs below indicating something special about the coin. There's nothing there except "Learn More At The Newman Numismatic Portal."

If that book was published in 1954...and he was offering to buy (sell ?) 1930-32 Saints for only $100, that is really a ripoff. And like Roger said, he's buying numismatic coins with $33.86 worth of gold for $30, and that doesn't take into account the numismatic value. Mehl died in 1957, BTW.

Who were some coin dealers from the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's who had good reputations for paying fair prices and not ripping off someone whose coins might be more valuable than they thought ? Any names come to mind ?

Yes, I saw that name a few times along with Parmount (I think David Akers worked there). It's fascinating to read about the gold dealers and collectors from the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's. Israel Switt's jewelry shop is still around I think....alot of the coin collectors like Mehl and FCC Boyd had associates or themselves active in the 1950's-1970's. Do Heritage, Legend, or Great Collections trace their lineage to any of the older gold dealers as far as you know ? Clearly, Stacks is still around from 1937. Would be interested to read a book -- or maybe an internet posting, more likely -- tracing the creation and dissolution of all those classic firms including which of today's firms they may have morphed into today.

I have a 1970's Red Book for pre-1973 gold prices. I am trying to collect all current and past books which have yearly reviews on Saint-Gaudens and Liberty Double Eagle coins.

(1) Does anybody know who "Ira and Larry Goldberg" are ? Their names keep coming up in the sales records. Are they dealers or collectors ? (2) Sometimes coins didn't sell in the listings for Akers and Roger's books. Isn't that kind of strange, since they are the top-of-the-line pieces ? You would think the auction companies knew the market and their buyers and wouldn't set the reserve too high. Unless maybe the collector set an unreasonable price and the auction house had no choice but to hope for a miracle ?

Thanks Conder....Roger's book mentioned the bullion vs. coin backing of certificates and I had forgotten about it. What still is somewhat intriguing is why SanFran Saints ("S") would end up in European banks -- I would think that the Philly coinage would head across the Atlantic to Europe, and the SanFran coins (if needed) headed over to the Pacific for Asian settlements, if any. I doubt we ever ran short of Philly coins and NEEDED SanFran or Denver coins. It certainly didn't make sense cost-wise or time-wise to ship coins from SanFran or Denver over to Europe vs. Philly (unless maybe some were already shipped to New York ?).

Mint-domiciled Saints: The amount of San Francisco and Denver post-1923 mintmarked coins which just sat in the vaults there is amazing. At least most of Philly's production for most/many years was used in international trade. But it seems with some of the "S" and "D" yearly production runs they just kept accumulating. And this was during the 1920's, The Roaring' 20's, when times were good economically and trade pretty healthy. Why mint so many unused coins ? Did they think that if we were still on the gold standard in 10 or 15 years that we'd just keep putting millions of coins every year into vaults ? Eventually you would have needed new warehouses to house them. Too bad we couldn't cut down on the Philly production and used some of the SanFran and Denver coins to send to Europe and/or South/Central America. May have preserved some of the modern rarities from being destroyed to the degree they were under FDR.

I'd do that, no problem. I have to give props to the book and you for participating in the thread -- you helped with some great questions and made the thread super-interesting. I reiterate that many gold and coin investors may not even be aware of Saint-Gaudens coinage. I didn't hear about them until AFTER I bought the 2009 UHR and saw the references. And anybody who buys modern gold bullion for investment/insurance purposes should be looking at generic common Saints as an alternative or addition. Just bought a 1915-S MS63 at FUN instead of an American Gold Eagle or Buffalo for my pure gold bullion collection.

Yup...according to a post on another forum, at least 1 of the Renaissance books is sold-out. Have you bought the Saints book ?

Ultimately, these countries are 1-party corrupt states who milked the companies during the good times and then acted shocked when production and equipment fell off a cliff during the bad times. Totally mismanaged.

Maybe people weren't that interested in die varieites and stuff like that at that time and/or at that time in their collecting years? It can get pretty complicated for non-experts, especially young people. It's 2nd-nature for some of you guys. But having just read Roger's Saints book, I can tell you that even on Saints -- where die and other strike varieties are smaller than other coins -- I found the focus on die and striking varieties getting lost in my overall enthusiasm for quality coins, interesting coins, and mint marks. Not begrduging those who follow that stuff and other minutae. But unless you really spend time and effort -- and many collectors (like me) are more part-timers -- it can be a bit out of most people's leagues. Both time-wise and $$$-wise.

What does U.S. foreign policy have to do with this decison, WC ? The UK and BOE probably believe that Maduro, not democratically elected, may pilfer the gold funds. VZ's oil reserves are a mirage. They only have "the largest oil reserves" if oil is above $80/bbl. It's a WEE BIT short of that right now.

I believe that Venezuela is being sued for billions in expropriated assets. They may not want to take delivery of these gold funds. Venezuela is the poster child for the failures of socialism. Hundreds of billions of dollars in oil revenues never materialized because of Chavez and Maduro. Basic necessities like food, medicine, diapers, and toilet paper not available. What a disgrace.

Well, even though I can't believe that any serious Saint collector or person interested in just reading about Saints would balk at $95, the sad truth is that many people do get sticker shock. Especially when they get so much stuff for free on the Internet or sharing Kindles or e-Books or whatever. FWIW, Akers book is $25 and Bowers is $14. Of course, half or more than half of each book is about non-Saint coins. But $20-$30 for a Guidebook To Buying Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Gold Coins or some similar title would be of interest to buyers of the coins, I would think. I know I'd grab one, just for a smaller reference than your full-sized Saint DE book. Also, your book would be 2020 or newer; Akers' hasn't been updated since 2008 (and most of the information is from 1988) and Bowers book is from 2004 (I would think it's due for a revised edition but who knows). Both books have a gold reference price of well under $1,000 even though gold hasn't traded below $1K since 2009. At FUN in January, I had to carry around the Heritage auction books before I took them back to my room. They were KILLING me (of course, being my 1st time at FUN, I didn't know I could drop off personal stuff in a room rather than lugging it all day at the OCCC ). While I loved your full-size book, I wouldn't want to lug it around all day at a show (unless I start working out ). Anyway, it would at least be a project that would consume less of your time than these other research-intensive works did. Keep us posted !

MINI BOOK: Roger, any thoughts to condensing the information in the book into an annual 1907-33 Saint highlights booklet ? A smaller, portable book or pamphlet that is closer to Bowers' or Akers' books in size ? A smaller, cheaper book could find a different market and generate new sales. You can't carry your book around a coin show -- it's too big and unwieldly (it also cost alot, it'll get damaged). I would keep: The 1st page with mintage, Production and Survival Ranks, Estimate Survivals, the Circulated and MS totals -- all from Page 1 or Pages 1/2 of your yearly reviews. After that, Appearance, Date & Monogram, and Commentary could also be included. The Price Guide (updated), for sure. You get rid of the non-yearly sections of the book (i.e., trade, Gold Standard, etc.)....ditch most of the photos except the 2 for obverse/reverse for each coin....ditch the die and assay data....and keep most or all of the Commentary depending on how relevant and how long (the 1907 HR section would have to be shrunk). For 53 Saints, at maybe 3-4 pages per year, you are talking about 200 pages (depending on print size). Akers' type size is bigger than the Bowers' book. I'd buy a smaller condensed version just to take to coin shows and conventions. All the work is done already in your Saints book, except updated Price Guide info. Maybe run it by Heritage ?

(1) What U.S. coins do you consider their scarcity exaggerated ? Are you talking Liberty or Saint DE's ? (2) Are there European equivalents to HA or Stack's that do high-end in-person or online auctions ?

Smartphone camera + tripod ?