GoldFinger1969

On 3/19/2022 at 10:58 AM, RWB said:

For research purposes those are still "ordinary and generic."

What kind of "research coins" are you talking about ?  Outside of an auctioner like Heritage, I don't think the 600 dealers at FUN or smaller number at other shows are going to have unique, historical coins outside of what it says on the label.

I presume you've been to big coin shows where they have viewing lots and you can talk to experts who might have insight....other than that, not sure how you can do research at a coin show.  I mean, I know if MTB was at a show to promote bullion sales you could always ask them about the 1983 El Salvador Gold/Saint Hoard (before the key people passed away), but that's a unique incident.  Ditto Stack's.

Just picked up a 2005 Philip H. Morse Catalog focused on Saints.  Probably duplicative with other HA stuff but for $20 not a bad purchase.

Newly found OR not worth much $$$.  Most valuable coins above their metallic content have been graded and certified by now.

Not all....most. 

On 3/19/2022 at 10:14 AM, RWB said:

It is missing the $10 and Pratt patterns. I discovered the $10 while working in the Smithsonian collection. John Mercanti found the $5 SG hubs in the Philadelphia Mint. Both discoveries were preceded by my location of documentation describing them. In these instances, the search for relevant contemporary written material allowed the prompt location of physical artifacts.

So there are no mentions of Saints in this book ?

On 3/19/2022 at 10:22 AM, RWB said:

and almost everything at a coin show is ordinary and generic, regardless of "rarity" or cost.

Not at the bigger shows.  Saw plenty of unique coins, including MCMVII HRs, at FUN 2020.

On 3/19/2022 at 8:42 AM, J P Mashoke said:

In the end neither coin is going to be a big return do to the high mintage.

Remember, it's not mintage that determines future likely returns or numismatic value....it's SURVIVORSHIP. 

On 3/19/2022 at 8:42 AM, J P Mashoke said:

The big thing with DE's is after the $2400 basic range it jumps up to 3000 and then on to infinity

There are coins that fill the $$$ spectrum, just have to look and be patient.  A 1908 NM in MS-65 with a CAC or OGH will be in the high-2's.  And before infinity, same coin in MS-66 will be low-to-mid $3's.

On 3/19/2022 at 8:17 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I agree you have to ring the bell at $2000 to get it for $2240 with a BP of 12% and a DE is a hard find in MS for that. I will have to pick a really good song and put on my dancing shoes to get that 04 or 08 for $2250. Maybe tears will help. LoL

In late January I saw a mid-AU for under $2,000 (including bp) at HA.  If gold trades in the low-1900's you should see these prices come down a bit.

Unless you have a definite desire for a MS coin, you could still get a very nice-looking one in AU-58 or AU-55 and save some $$$.

On 3/19/2022 at 8:41 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

One of the main gold coins I would like would be the $10 Indian.  

It's dated, but if you want a primer on Indian Head Gold Eagles ($10), the Akers/Ambio 20th Century United States Gold Coins, 1907-1933 is a great resource.

On 3/19/2022 at 1:02 AM, Woods020 said:

I think you believe collectors tie the price of the coins to gold price more than they actually do. No argument gold coins are primarily driven by intrinsic value, but the coins won’t fluctuate as exact as gold spot. They will go up and down, but gold spot going down $150 will do little for the coin prices.

I was assuming he was buying a bullion substitute or the 2 coins above which I believe will move dollar-for-dollar with the gold price or pretty much close to it. 

On 3/18/2022 at 9:54 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Let's not forget the most costly part of the trip... the coins! 

I had saved up for years and it turned out to be a good time to buy -- prices low, Covid hitting a few weeks later -- but I probably spent $1,000 on transportation and room/eats at FUN 2020.  And spent multiples of that on coins !! 

"....properly of the United States" ?  

On 3/18/2022 at 10:00 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I really need to do something about my lack of gold.  I do not have a single numismatic gold coin. 

By numismatic, I include anything with a premium of over 10%.  So an MS-65 1924 qualifies.

Any coins or grades intrigue you ?

On 3/18/2022 at 8:45 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I am going to wait until after the Sunday night auction and see what transpires before making a counter offer on the 1904 and 1908 . I don't think they will have jumped off the shelf this weekend.  

I would think auction prices might lag on the downside, much like gasoline prices.

Report back on what you find with the GC auctions, I'll check too and also scan HA. 

On 3/18/2022 at 7:35 PM, J P Mashoke said:

It is not like collectors bidding it feels more like people with money. 

Yup...though many MIGHT become collectors.

We saw this 15 months ago with Large Denomination Bills ($500, $1,000) in lower or raw grades moving up sharply.  Folks were chasing the affordable stuff, not the PMG 63's and 65's. 

Price spikes followed.

On 3/18/2022 at 7:35 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I always say, I am not in a hurry and something will come along but watching the bidding prices going up at the auctions is a little unnerving. I see coins that were toping out not long ago at just over spot now 3 or 4 bills more. It is not just gold I see my Nickels and Morgan's getting harder and harder to pick up cheap like it was 6 months ago. It is not like collectors bidding it feels more like people with money. You can tell when a coin that is not quite right just keeps getting bumped. LoL   

Gold peeled off $150 in like 7 trading days so buying here is pretty good, IMO.  If the prices on the coins you saw were even a few days stale, they could be too high even adjusting for the 3% ounce differential.

1928 Elyria, OH Hoard of 1928 Saints:  Roger, with 25 of the 1928's found in an original Double Eagle bag, have you ever heard anybody muse about the possibility that they could have been the remaining 10% of the loot/split of the stolen bag of 250 1928 Saint DEs ?

"....Breen may have confused the 1931-D group with a hoard of 1928 double eagles (25 pieces in an original bank bag) that surfaced in 1985 in Elyria, Ohio."

On 3/18/2022 at 6:37 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I have been hitting the auctions but by the time the last bell sounds they are all around the same $ in the end but I still try LoL 

I'll check back a few months to see if the premium to the then-spot price of gold was lower....obviousley, lots of Keyboard Kollectors the last month or so as gold rose $200 during the Ukrainian situation.

I see 125-175 bids on common Saints....in the past, I can't recall ever seeing more than 30-50.  Maybe I can recall or remember 1 coin that had triple-digit number of bidders, if that.  Now I see 2 or 3 or 4 at the same time.

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. 

You know, Dave, now that I think about it.....if you're a friend of baseball superstar Mike Trout's and he has a few big-ticket gold coins...and you're a dealer who has a coin collector of hundreds of hard-to-sell stuff....no law against marketing it all as Mike Trout's (or Tom Cruise or anybody else famous) stuff.  At least not that I know of.

Of course, you better make sure the famous person has tight lips. 

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. Ol' Abe wasn't adverse to bending the truth a bit, but the same was true of most of his contemporaries.

Really ?  My understanding was that he was a big believer in gold coins but I never saw anything that said he was a hard-core coin collector.  So I was surprised by the hundreds of small denomination, non-gold coins in the auction.

I know he liked gold coins and loved the MCMVII High Reliefs....you think maybe Kossoff and Kreisberg just sold someone else's hard-to-sell small denomination inventory alongside the few hundred (or fewer) Menjou gold coins ?

On 3/18/2022 at 5:43 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Thank you both for your comments . I tell ya what is getting my goat is everywhere I go shopping PCGS prices are always a higher value than NGC, especially on gold coins. Same coin same grade same look it is just not right in my book. 

If you are buying a bullion coin but one that is certified, then paying up for the PCGS label is not worth it.  If you want to pay up for a NUMISMATIC gold coin, that's different.  

At least as I see it.  YMMV.   

On 3/18/2022 at 5:18 PM, Woods020 said:

$2300 would be a fair and accurate price for each of these coins. As far as which one as you said neither is a hard date. 

It's an 18% premium, maybe 20% where gold is trading.  I'm wondering if both or one of the coins could be gotten for a bit cheaper price.

I remember I bought a 1915-S for spot....which basically is a 4% premium when you adjust for the 0.9675 adjustment factor.

Might pay to look at GC or HA and see if 64 1908 NM's and 63 1904 Liberty's maybe can be had for a total cost of $2,100 or so.  With the BP, maybe not -- but who knows at a local coin show or LCS.

On 3/18/2022 at 5:03 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Well now that I have gotten my feet wet I want to show two pieces I am looking at and get some ideas from the guys who know. I have a choice on one of these I can purchase for $2300.  Both are common and are not key dates that gaining very fast. So the question is should I just grab one at that price and do a lot of praying or pass and look for a better coin down the road. The Saint has a nice knee and nose and the LH has a over all clean look. Sorry the pictures are not that great. Any comments are welcome please.

First, don't forget that you can read about the 1908 No Motto Hoard story over in the RWB Saints Thread, JP.

Second, although I don't like this particular NGC holder (solid white interior), and even though I am more partial to Saints, I would probably go with the 1904 Liberty DE and wait on a No Motto.....and then, when you do want to add a 1908 NM... spend a few more $$$ and get an MS-65 CAC or even an MS-66 (or higher) No Motto. 

The surplus of 1908 NM's means that you get a lot more "bang for your buck" -- premium wise, that is -- whatever dollar amount you are willing to spend.  Just as both coins above are $2,300 but you can get an MS-64 for the No Motto vs. MS-63 for the Liberty.

On 3/17/2022 at 8:09 PM, VKurtB said:

By the way, when Roger participates in any thread involving counterfeits, and he mentions Colorado, it is Daniel Carr he’s referencing. You need to be aware of his backhand insults. He’s a walking plethora of them. I think he’s beyond contemptible. 

Contemptible is people selling fakes or committing fraud.  Having a strong opinion -- even a WRONG opinion -- shouldn't bring that level of vitriol.

JMHO. 

On 3/18/2022 at 1:28 PM, FlyingAl said:

I don't collect Saints and therefore have no idea which particular hoards are true or false, but I do think that I would have taken the mention of 40 coins as true, because we've seen it before in the hobby. This is the kind of misinformation that VKurt is talking about, where it can hurt even those who have been in the hobby for a time, and certainly those who are brand new. It is also why leaving opinions indistinguishable from fact very dangerous and raises many problems. 

He just has a very strong opinion on that.

I understand where you guys are coming from but if Roger wants to be absolutist there, he'll have to live with the consequences.  

Yes, and I hope many of you newbies gravitate over to the U.S. COINS section as the volume of new posts has really dried up there in recent days/weeks.