GoldFinger1969

I wonder what their collector list looked like in the late-1920's. 

Interesting Fact:  Dr. Thaine Price is still alive and still registered as a cardiologist in California !  Might buy some coins from him but not sure about using him as my cardio go-to guy since he's going on 96 years old ! 

On 3/24/2022 at 1:58 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Oh sure... If you want to sell your MS69 ASE for slight under spot (the bullion bid/ask spread), you can certainly to that.  But, I don't know any collector that wants to lose 50%+ on every piece in their collection.  Any newbie that is over-leveraged in this way will certainly get a bad taste, as they bought these graded coins as premium examples (and technically they are), but you get subpar results when it comes time to sell.

Yup...and that's the rub....if you LIKE these coins, it's one thing to buy 1 or 2...if all your silver (or gold) bullion is in the form of graded Moderns, you're going to be paying rich premiums that others might not want to pay for.  I know as I bought a 2.5 ounce gold commemorative and when I had to sell it I only got spot (fortunately, I only paid about a 10% premium at a much lower spot price).

I like the National Park Foundation Saint-Gaudens commemoratives and have bought many at $50-$100 despite there only being 1 ounce of silver.  Many 5 ounce silver coins sell at $200 - $400 a coin in PF70 or PF69 grades which is a huge premium but you pay up for the really big flawless coins.

I know some non-collectors who bought gold/silver coins as presents and liked having it graded and in a holder.  The recipients also liked it that way, too.

On 3/24/2022 at 12:54 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I agree with @GoldFinger1969 that many (perhaps most) valuable coins are in holders. But, I also think we have some room here, as many old-school collectors and dealers still have raw coins.  Likewise, some areas (EAC) prefer raw coins.  I think there is still meat on the bone.  I am sure there are many on this forum who have an album of BU Franklin Half Dollars for example - so I take those population numbers with a grain of salt.

Mini-hoards, domestic and foreign, continue to be found.  Who's to say if a small South American bank didn't take delivery of 250 Saint-Gaudens or Liberty Double Eagles 100 or 115 years ago and forget about them because their antiquated systems kept recording it as $5,000 face value and it wasn't worth the time to go into the dusty old vault or tunnel to audit it regularly ?

On 3/24/2022 at 12:54 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Here is what concerns me about TPG - bullion grading.  I am not knocking anyone who wants to collect graded ASE or GE bullion.  However, every collector should be keenly aware that graded bullion can be very difficult to sell.  I challenge anyone to call a dealer with their MS69 ASE and try to sell it - if you think it's an easy sell, you will soon be educated.  That same dealer would buy raw bullion all day long, so by grading the bullion you are limiting yourself to a collector-to-collector sale (more lucrative, but can be much slower to sell in an emergency).  Bullion is a gateway to numismatics.  If a new collector buys piles of graded bullion and doesn't realize the pitfalls, it puts a black-eye on the value of grading.

My understanding is that you may not get back what you paid for the grade/holder but you should still have no problem selling a graded bullion coin, right ?  Easier for gold I would think since the cost/value of the grade/holder is much smaller on a $2,000 coin versus a $30 coin. 

On 3/24/2022 at 12:47 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

Hi all, Thank you all for the feedback.  The answers were as I expected, and good information.  I'm not an autograph or signature hound.  Personally - even if Donald Trump signed a label, I'm not sure it would attract me to buy the coin unless I'm trying to make a statement.  Yup, I get it... Signatures and Autographs are 2 separate things.  But thanks to LEM E for showing the difference.  I never noticed it before.  You guys are the best.  Thanks.  Chris

Some labels ARE just nicer.  A PCGS label that I saw for an American Silver Eagle had a bald eagle on it in large size which I thought was pretty cool.  Some of the 2009 UHR Saints have plain gold foil which some like, and others have a picture of ASG which I prefer.

Years ago, they had nothing on these labels just like nothing on sports team uniforms or stadium walls.  Now, full of advertising. 

On 3/24/2022 at 11:44 AM, RWB said:

What I've suggested is a scientific study about knowledge, not coin variety or "value" in money.

It'd be of interest...but of more interest would be hearing how guys like Paul Wittlin found the overseas hoards that they repatriated. 

Did they talk to bank executives...private bankers....the holders of the coins themselves......did the bank contacts accumulate the coins into a sufficient number or did they literally dribble out 1 or 2 or 3 coins....did bags of DEs remain untouched and unmoved for decades or did they get moved more frequently....was anybody else but American numismatic representatives interested in these coins....etc.

Some of this is covered in your book but since many of the principals are decesased it's no longer possible to directly interview them which means we need to research it from scratch.

On 3/24/2022 at 11:47 AM, RWB said:

How do members think the authentication and grading companies will fare in the future?

In theory, outside of moderns and maybe a long inventory of foreign/ancients, most valuable domestic U.S. coins should already be graded/certified, so no future business possible.  Of course, there are always crack-outs. 

I personally think that long after the latest collectible bubble has ended that the buyers of CU will be glad they have the slow-and-steady coin grading business.

Chris, you won't find many people on an NGC Forum who will tell you they pay a premium for a modern coin with a guy's signature on the label.  Now, if you could buy a Saint Double Eagle with a COA signed by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, that would be another thing. 

The guys are right....it's 99.9% marketing.  You can debate having a modern coin graded and slabbed but at least you get something tangible with each:  an actual grade (70 or 69 or maybe 68) and a nice holder that makes handling the coin easy.  "First Strike" and "1st Day Of Issuance" and signatures by engravers, Treasurers, Mint officials, etc. are really not worth much at all, if anything.

That said, I do LIKE the modern NGC holders alot and when I do buy a graded and holdered modern coin, sometimes I will try and buy it in a modern NGC label.  How much more am I paying for that ?  Maybe $5, tops.  If I buy another 2009 UHR Saint recreation I want one with the NGC label that has the side portrait of ASG rather than just the plain gold foils or other artwork.  

But again...that's MY preference and I won't and don't have to pay much for that little perk.  Some folks charge an extra 20% or 50% or more for 1st Strike, etc.

On 3/23/2022 at 9:35 PM, Coinbuf said:

A great many of the coins still in these rattler holders are there because, like your coin, they are very common dates and the cost to try for an upgrade usually costs more than the coin is worth if it upgrades.   Dealers love these because they can hype the under graded lore and many times get close to the next grade money without spending the money to actually try for the upgrade.  

I never thought about that.  Cost of a 1-point upgrade not worth doing for many sub-$100 coins I bet. 

On 3/23/2022 at 11:40 PM, Woods020 said:

Yes. One example is the doubled dies we get asked about all the time. A doubled die is a die variety. Now within that die variety you will see different characteristics appear or disappear as the die is used. It may develop die cracks, breaks, and even terminal state defects such as starburst for example. You will see flow lines develop and notice small changes as it is used. So the doubled die is a variety, then the die goes through states of decomposition essentially from new to time to replace. This is oversimplified but hopefully answers your basic question. 

Yes it did....those changes are the states, got it. 

This is of interest to many/most, but for most coins it's basically a short 1-liner or 1-paragraph.  I'm not sure how expansive tracking the source, content, and quality of the gold/silver would be to a coin holder decades later.

I think the HISTORY of the coins and what they went through over the decades is much more interesting, makes for better storytelling, etc.

Is there a difference between die states and die varieties (including die lines, die cracks, die breaks, die collapse, etc.) ?

NN asked about die states and I kind of responded with die varieties confusingly before RWB cleared up what I tried to bring in from his book.

On 3/23/2022 at 10:40 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Its light green 

It's 1.2.....color, font, style, back all match up with 1.2 from 1986-89.

I think Coinbuf was right on the years, just mistyped the generation.  I'll let him tell us.

So it's Generation 1.2 from 1986-89.  We all agree ? 

On 3/23/2022 at 9:35 PM, Coinbuf said:

It is a Gen 1.2 used from 1986 to 1989,

If it's 1986-89, then it's Gen 1.2, right ?  

I may have mistyped, the label's color doesn't match up with 2.1.  It matches closer with 1.2 (1986-89).

The color of his label is tough to see if it's faded light green or white.

Nice coin, nice rattler, nice story to tell your friends !! 

On 3/23/2022 at 10:28 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

Is there a market, need, or something I'm missing with regard to these signed slabbed coins?  Does a signatured series command more collectability?

Some of us value them, some of us don't.  By and large, Moy and Mercanti are well thought of by the community so their "signatures" on labels tend to command a SMALL premium.

As I believe all the coins they are on are moderns, just remember they have lots of company. 

On 3/23/2022 at 8:12 PM, RWB said:

They had a negative 1:10 split and Bowers got out soon after. The company value was low which was the reason for the split. However, Bowers evidently got a lot out of the Stack's deal, but I have nothing definite. (The PCGS info came from SEC filings.)

Thanks, missed that....I was suprised by the deal, they got bought out at like 5-10x the price of 6-9 months earlier.

We talked about it here, it was mostly for the collectibles and NFT business which quite frankly I think is bubbleish.  But maybe they think coins/currency will be a slow, steady grower. 

On 3/23/2022 at 8:10 PM, RWB said:

We actually know little about when US gold was first used for US coins, or even available. Documents and archives describe early discoveries, and some gold samples exist in the SI geological and ore collection (some from the old Mint Cabinet). I am not aware of anyone actually doing the data collection and measurements. But it is common for each gold or silver vein (or even placer run) to have its individual trace elements.  The earliest Carolina and Georgia gold was all placer, so there were not real "mines" until the 1830s

In theory...if gold today (not sure about 100-150 years ago) was purified to 90% or 99.9% purity.....shouldn't it look the same if you struck a coin on the same mint dies ?  Or is there a real atomic or chemical difference between gold ore processed in California vs. Dahlonega and other places on the East Coast ?

On 3/23/2022 at 4:13 PM, RWB said:

He once held a million shares of PCGS parent company.

I hope he held it .....Mets Owner Steve Cohen and another firm bought it out for a nice premium, I forget the price, but something like $70 a share.  That would mean he could have owned close to 10% of the company at one time, though I would wager he sold off shares over time or was diluted.

On 3/23/2022 at 4:37 PM, RWB said:

It would be interesting to be able to pinpoint the earliest use of Carolina or Georgia gold in US coins.

Is that difficult ?  I would think we would know when those mines were opened and when they shipped to the Mints near them, some of which closed.

On 3/23/2022 at 12:28 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

NGC and PCGS price guides are not very accurate.  These prices are inflated (even for today's market).  

If prices are falling they'll be inflated.  When prices rise, they tend to be low.

On 3/23/2022 at 12:28 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I analyze the Greysheet and actual hammer prices at auctions.  Also, I don't take the "fly-away" auction hammer as the value, but look at all of the hammer prices within the last 6 months, and take the average.  Then, compare that to the Greysheet.  This is a little leg-work, but you will quickly find that if you are paying the price guide rates for your coins - you are paying too much. Edit note - if you are after something very rare, you will have to go back a year or more to get enough data to make your assessment statistically credible.

Yup.....I guess Greysheet is fairly accurate but I think there is nothing better than real-time auctions and we get them weekly from HA, GC, and even Ebay for some stuff.

On 3/23/2022 at 3:01 PM, RWB said:

I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing that kind of a responsibility breakdown. The coins I received were easily separated by "picker." The Bower & Merena setup might have been more like you mention.

Bowers has bounced around alot.....belonged to a lot of firms.  Stacks-Bowers is like his 5th or 6th firm.

Isn't this one of the reasons that coins struck in San Fran differed from Denver and especially Philly ?  Plus the differences in equipment, tolerance levels, etc.

Add in differences in the dies and then you have "poorly struck" and well-struck coins....lustrous ones and non-lustrous, etc.

Biggest difference would probably be between the 1908-S (in top condition one of the best-looking Saints) and the 1908 NM which is very blah-looking.