GoldFinger1969

On 3/27/2022 at 5:41 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I read some about this 'treasure' find.  It seems odd to me that several insurance companies sued to get some gold saying 'they' had paid claims on the lost gold.  1857 claims paid and 1988 or so sue for damages?  Greed has no scruples, eh?

I think they got like 7% or so.  I didn't follow the court case(s), but I am sure it's different than if a stolen or lost item suddenly turns up.  In this case, the gold was found but big $$$ were expended in bringing it up.  And the insurance company didn't foot that bill.

On 3/27/2022 at 12:56 PM, Nouzillet said:

This myth, was in part, why Tommy Thompson and CADG got caught up in what seemed like an endless and extremely costly legal battle over the ownership of the treasure. When the wreck was first discovered decades ago, some clueless folks valued her potential treasure at 1 billion dollars.  That’s billion with a B or Baloney Don’t get me wrong it was a magnificent find and recovery. The ship simply never carried 21 tons of gold on her final voyage. SFBM records etc. show no such gold shipment. Again the wreck site is severely degraded- there is nowhere to hide tons of additional gold.

You would think something like that would have been cleared up right away.  I mean, if there were 7x as much gold found it'd be pretty hard to hide it, right ?

Of course, TT didn't help himself with going into hiding and evading the courts.

On 3/27/2022 at 12:56 PM, Nouzillet said:

The 21 tons of gold is a Myth that gets repeated over and over again in article after article. It was based on a false claim that the ship carried a “secret U.S. Army shipment” that supposedly consisted of 600-50 lb boxes of gold ingots that were placed on the S.S. Sonora in SF and in turn the S. S. Central America at Aspinwall on her last voyage. It’s not at the bottom of the sea, it never was onboard the S.S.CA. The wreck site is severely degraded-no place for tons of additional gold to hide. Barry Schatz one of the original members of Columbus-America Discovery Group stated this decades ago. A much more realistic number is that the ship carried 3 tons of gold.

That makes more sense.  21 tons would have been ALOT back in the 1850's for 1 ship to carry, tonnage-wise.  Also would be almost $15 MM in gold. 

On 3/27/2022 at 12:26 PM, VKurtB said:

This all makes graded ASE’s among the absolute worst numismatic “investments” imaginable. They are a nearly guaranteed loser when in TPGS plastic. 

Maybe...but I didn't buy them as investments.  I just bought 1 or 2 here-and-there because I liked the design, like the Saint-Gaudens UHR commemoratives.

If I was buying 100 ounces of silver, I'd never buy 100 premium or slabbed silver pieces.  Maybe 5 or so...the rest would be the closest to spot silver in price.

On 3/26/2022 at 6:38 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I shop commemoratives a lot and they were cheap about a year ago but in the last six months everyone is bidding on them and pushing up the prices more. I find I have to look a lot harder for good deals on any coins lately. 

Are the premiums up or just the overall price ?  Gold is up 15% and new buyers are coming in.

On 3/26/2022 at 6:31 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I think Kurt is correct if you are trying to sell to a dealer.. If you sell privately or at auction you may get a better return. Every dealer I talk to hate gold and silver bullion graded or not most only keep it in there shop to please there regular customers.    

Unless they have active buyers, you're probably right.  But I would sell at a show or online. 

On 3/26/2022 at 8:37 PM, Hoghead515 said:

My photography skills are horrible. Also my equipment. All I have is an android phone to take pics. 

They're better IMO than those portrait-like "True Views" and other images I see.   I personally hate those.

Default settings on your smartphone set to Maximum Resolution (you can always shrink if necessary)....angle the coins at 30 degrees to you and the phone with the light behind you or to the side....LED light best....then zoom in and shoot.

Add your own preferences but IMO based on what I see above you already have a pretty good base to start with.

How much of the 21 tons of gold have been brought up ?  I know there probably won't be any more salvage missions -- they got the low-hanging fruit and it wouldn't be financially profitable to go after the remainder left.

On 3/26/2022 at 8:24 PM, RWB said:

If we look at ANA membership for 1900 there were as many members in Ohio as NYC -- in fact Ohio was the center of US coin collecting for a long time.

Businessmen who owned manufacturing plants and companies in that state with some money ?

On 3/26/2022 at 7:02 PM, FlyingAl said:

Personally, I love the Satin proof double eagles of '09 and '10. If I could have any coin, it would be one of those.

How much are they in AU condition ?  They might be low-5 figure but I'm not sure.

On 3/26/2022 at 6:20 PM, FlyingAl said:

Goldfinger, I would assume that there were at least 50 double eagle collectors in 1909 due to the purchase of the proof double eagle. There were 67 reported minted, and I took out 17 to account for collectors purchasing multiple, but I doubt many did due to how unpopular these were in the early 20th century.  Of course, it's all speculation.

That's a reasonable assumption.  The proofs weren't anything special so if you assume it represents a portion of the serious collectors, figure there were others who were more interested in the regular business strikes.

The Proof Saints were never all that popular with collectors and they kept going back-and-forth on finishes to appeal to that crowd.  Finally, they said "bleep-it" and got rid of the proofs. 

Peak-to-trough a loss of about 85%:

https://www.pcgs.com/prices/coin-index/silver-and-gold-commemorative

On 3/26/2022 at 3:50 PM, RWB said:

More like 25 to 35 actual collectors and dealers in gold....occasional others for special purposes or possible speculation.

I'm surprised there weren't more of the Philly, NYC, and Boston gold dealers and antique players (like Switt) on those lists.  Even the Midwest had to have some active dealers who dealt with heavy-hitters.

They had the $$$ to buy and I thought they had a steady stream of collectors who could easily afford to pay $30 for a fresh-off-the-press scratch-free Double Eagle.

I would think -- guesstimate -- that there had to be a few hundred (?) gold coin/Double Eagle collectors, wealthy individuals (stamp and coin collecting was big in the 1920's, right ?) who would either be on the list OR would have their reps (the dealers) on it for them so they got first dibs.

I know the masses couldn't afford these coins, but I thought the Top 1% could, and certainly the Top 1% of 1%.

On 3/26/2022 at 2:46 PM, VKurtB said:

You will NOT get anything over bullion value. Count on that. 

I doubt it, Kurt.  I might not get the same PREMIUM as a % OF THE COIN....and maybe not even the DOLLAR AMOUNT of that premium.

But I doubt it sells for exactly what spot silver or gold sell for or an ungraded, uncertified coin.

Now....my Reverse Proof UHR National Park Saint-Gaudens Commemorative....which I bought when silver was $22/oz. and I paid $110.....I doubt I am getting 5x the price of silver in the future.  But I doubt I only get spot silver, either.

On 3/26/2022 at 2:39 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

Hi, What are your thoughts on Commemoratives?  You guys have been awesome helping me and others discern the intricacies of my latest restarted hobby.  But I'm still looking for more, (the itch I can't scratch).  I'm looking at several silver (and one gold) Commemoratives.  Many are fairly inexpensive - while others are $300+.  (ouch!)  (yes, I ordered the Purple Heart series from the Mint - not the inflated prices.)  Do you collect commemoratives?  why?

Booker T Washington and many others were over-produced, or the subject matter was not high on the social ladder at the time.  For me, it's a great way to teach kids history.  Is there a book you recommend on Commemoratives?  I hope this is not a previously covered topic that I missed.  God Bless, Chris

Commemoratives are "cheap" relative to other series.  Of course, they had 2 bubbles in the last 4 decades and that meant they could fall a long way -- on the order of 85% peak-to-trough -- to the recent lows.

Lots of commemoratives now sell for little more than spot value of the underlying metal.  Only pay a premium that is rich if you like/love the underlying coin.

On 3/26/2022 at 10:40 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I would think any common coins like my collection of  ASE's, Morgan's or Nickels will not bring in anything major. There are not a lot of specialty coins. Gray sheet and less a percentage of some kind I am sure so the dealer can resell easier.   

If an ASE cost $30 raw ungraded a few years ago....and I bought a special label or signed one for $50.....if the price of silver goes to $75, then I suspect I will be able to more easily recoup some of the premium I paid as my "special" ASE might be worth $95 or more.....or maybe just a bit more than the $75 spot price (though I think it'll be more).

Regardless, any time you pay a premium to spot silver or gold, you take a risk that you won't recoup it in the future.  That's true of "signatures" or special labels or numismatic premiums.

Canadian Hoards:  Does anybody know of any famous or semi-famous Canadian Hoards, maybe involving Saints ? 

Since we sent alot of gold to the UK and Canada was part of the UK at that time, you'd think alot of American gold would have gone north to Canadian/British banks.

On 3/26/2022 at 9:18 AM, Conder101 said:

I think they probably did, because they did send out lists of what coins were available.

For gold coins, the list couldn't have been too long....not many people could afford $20 Double Eagles (or even smaller denomination coins), especially after 1929.  Based on what I saw in RWB's Saints book, maybe 100 collectors/dealers/names, give-or-take ?

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. Ol' Abe wasn't adverse to bending the truth a bit, but the same was true of most of his contemporaries.

Dave, it still goes on to an extent though apparently smaller.

While doing some research, I noticed that the late David Akers was used as a consultant/cataloguer on the 2012 Duckor Saint-Gaudens sale by Heritage.  They mentioned that the 1927-D owned by Duckor was of a different type (and higher grade, too) than the one he earlier sold.

But that coin was sold in the 1998 Thaine B. Price Saint sale.  And the only reason Heritage knew that was because David Akers and his firm cataloged and sold those coins.  Otherwise, nobody -- not Heritage and certainly not me -- would know that a few coins in the Price sale didn't belong to him.

Rather than piggy-back on the Price sale like the small denomination coins piggy-backed on Menjou's name, I think it was just to be able to say that the Price sale would include a trophy coin like a 1927-D (which Price apparently never owned).  While today you can sell a trophy coin individually quite easily via the Internet or through the many physical auctions we see taking place, back in 1998 the internet wasn't yet established and I don't believe that all the physical auctions we see today (HA, GC, Stacks, etc) were there in the quantity they are today.

So Duckor got to sell his 1927-D at a prestigious Saint sale and Price and Akers got to mention that a 1927-D would be auctioned off.  Win-Win for both sides. 

On 3/25/2022 at 3:35 PM, RWB said:

Estimate for Europe, SA is very rough -- a "possible back-of-the-vault bag-or-two" quantity. The first two rows are  in line with the 2.9 million estimate because the source number are better.

Got it, different estimates from using different assumptions.  3.1 MM vs. 3.0 MM (rounded).  

Thx. 

Page 603 Table:  Roger, how do you reconcile the estimated survivors figures from the table below vs. what you stated at the end of Page 612 where you said 2,996,565 Saints survive in all states of preservation ?  I can't get that figure from the numbers below.

Also, re-reading this chapter, I think it's logical to assume that the TPA number below (39 MM) is certainly reduced by Nazi Germany and other country melting down of Saints and other American gold coins from 1907-1950, for which there are no surviving documents to confirm it but certainly we know it took place.  Hoards still possible, but almost certainly a small fraction of that 39 million.

Page 603:

• Total Saint-Gaudens Coins Minted..................70,290,930
• Known Melted Coins........................................26,951,006 (from 1921 and 1929-33)
•      TOTAL POTENTIALLY AVAILABLE.........43,339,924 

• Estimated Survivors..............................................591,665  (1907-1933, excludes the next 2 lines)                    
• Estimated Survivors...........................................2,028,000 (1908 Type 1 & 1922-1928 Philly Mint)
• Estimated Survivors...........................................1,088,310 (Europe, South America)
•       TOTAL ESTIMATED SURVIVORS.............3,707,975

•       MISSING/POTENTIALLY AVAILABLE......39,631,949

On 3/24/2022 at 7:53 PM, Conder101 said:

Yes, the DuPont coin has never resurfaced.  There is still hope though.  Several of the major rarities from the robbery have turned up over the years.

Sadly, if it hasn't resurfaced by now, you have to think some dirtbag melted it down and sold it for the gold content. 

On 3/24/2022 at 10:14 PM, RWB said:

By about 1923, the Treasurer's office had taken over sales of coins to collectors, so the Mints no longer had to deal with coin requests from collectors. I suspect, but have not seen, that Treasury had a list of repeat purchasers.

Strange that The Treasury would deal with retail clients.  No wonder we had a banking crisis a few years later !! 

On 3/24/2022 at 6:37 PM, Conder101 said:

Many museums don't display or only display a small part of their numismatic holdings.  So there could be a good chance we wouldn't know about them.

You think very valuable coins could be sitting in a drawer somewhere ?  I am sure there are SOME hidden coins, but I have to believe that any museum curator or director -- even if not a coin expert -- must know that the large gold coins he has squirreled away are potentially very valuable.

On 3/24/2022 at 6:49 PM, Zebo said:

Reminds me of the 100 greatest books, a lot of eye candy with a small amount of information. Nice to have all of them handy to compare in one book, I guess.

Outside of Roger Burdette's Saints book, for current information on Saints the best thing out there is the auction archived over at HA which basically is a compendium of all the auction catalogs of recent vintage.

Still like reading Bower's book on DE's and Akers/Ambio on Gold Coins, but those are both dated.