GoldFinger1969

On 3/21/2022 at 2:54 PM, RWB said:

Mitchelson donated his entire collection to the Connecticut State Library

I misread the post....I thought Mitchelson was in charge of the CSL, he was a private collector.   I forgot it was Godard who ran CSL and spoke/wrote to Comparette.

Thanks ! 

On 3/21/2022 at 2:12 PM, Woods020 said:

I can buy them from BU down to VF. Or cull if you want. These aren’t original rolls which I don’t believe exist. They just buy a huge volume of silver dollars and gold. They will sell it to dealers individually or in rolls. But it’s just the quantity and in a tube, again not an original back roll. My point was that large quantities are readily available. 

The number of collectors -- the demand -- is often as important as the supply (pop census). 

On 3/21/2022 at 2:32 PM, RWB said:

In this letter, noted collector Joseph Mitchelson (now the Connecticut State Coin Collection) was told to send $20 - face value - for one of the patterns, and Director Leach would try to get a coin for him. 

December 30, 1907

From: Leach

To: Joseph Mitchelson

      Your letters of the 20^th and 25^th at hand.

     Send me $20 and return postage and Registration fee and I will try to secure one of the $20 for you. Mr. Kunz has already applied for trial piece of the first designs for his Society, I do not think there are any left of the first model. If you will send another $20 for your Society I will also endeavor to secure a coin for it as well…

Very interesting, and for those who want more, get Roger's book. 

Roger, Connecticut was the only museum/state that had a collection of gold coints/Double Eagles/Saints that they updated every year apparently ?  Nobody else I take it, besides the Smithsonian ?

I wonder if the CT State Library sent out a letter every year and if so...if they did it in 1933 ?

On 3/21/2022 at 2:03 PM, Woods020 said:

I was referring to reputable sources. Imperial or Rarcoa both sell rolls that are legit. 

Would they impact pricing ?  Are they mint quality or circulated ?

As a reminder...remember how these rankings changed over the decades:

Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's:

ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S

SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D

RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S

SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D

Rarity Rankings, 2000’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1921

SUPER-RARE…….1920-S, 1931, 1932

RARE………………1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D

SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1926-S, 1924S 

Rarity Rankings, 2020’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1932

SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 

RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929

SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1926S, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S

On 3/21/2022 at 12:41 PM, RWB said:

Excellent points, Coinbuf. However much we happen to enjoy this hobby, it is tiny, has a tiny market segment, and correspondingly minuscule ability to absorb new material. A handful of coins from certain date/mint combinations would crash the "value" of "rarities."

Depends.  If it is already a common or mostly bullion piece (i.e., 1908 No Mottos and the Wells Fargo Hoard) then the price decline might be miniscule.

OTOH...if the 1933's at Fort Knox ever get released, the value of the sole 1933 crashes. 

Price declines and non-sales of coins in the 1950's from what I have read were CLEARLY IMPACTED by the small numbers of rare coins coming back from Europe via Paul Wittlin and others like him.

On 3/21/2022 at 12:02 AM, Woods020 said:

If going for closest to spot as possible circulated gets you much closer. It makes a big difference 

It's an 8% premium to the price of gold, 11-12% if you account for the sub-1 ounce of gold in a Saint.  You have the highest AU grade (58)...AND the CAC sticker.  Probably an easy coin to sell if you have to.

Personally, if I wasn't going to buy an MS-66 or higher for a 1908 NM, I'd go down to the AU-58 level rather than low-to-mid 60's. 

But that's just me.    

On 3/21/2022 at 8:04 AM, VKurtB said:

In my prior home area of south central Pennsylvania, finding slabbed coins is kind of unusual. Most of the best stuff at auction remains raw there. That is slooooowly changing, but has a very long way to go. 

That's not surprising.  Anybody with certified coins probably has made separate arrangements that their heirs/estate should contact a specific person to sell them or that they should go to a dealer to sell them and not sell them at an estate or garage sale.

On 3/21/2022 at 8:04 AM, VKurtB said:

This all depends on where the coins are, and what they are. The recently concluded Ken Bressett sale in Colorado Springs featured U.S. coins that were almost all slabbed, and British, Roman, and Greek  coins that were all raw. “Give the people what they want.” 

I don't doubt that between the U.S. and Europe, most ancient/foreign coins are probably raw.  We probably have only scratched the surface there.

OTOH....considering that the major coin dealers and big-time collectors had representatives (like Paul Wittlin) stationed in Europe scouring banks for U.S. gold coins, the low-hanging fruit has probably been picked.  Post-1950, you had to have feet on the ground to find out.  Today, with technology, probably not as critical.

However, I wonder about stray hoards in Central and South America.  Mexico and Canada, too.

On 3/18/2022 at 5:03 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Well now that I have gotten my feet wet I want to show two pieces I am looking at and get some ideas from the guys who know. I have a choice on one of these I can purchase for $2300.  Both are common and are not key dates that gaining very fast. So the question is should I just grab one at that price and do a lot of praying or pass and look for a better coin down the road. The Saint has a nice knee and nose and the LH has a over all clean look. Sorry the pictures are not that great. Any comments are welcome please.

Here's a nice AU-58 CAC 1908 NM that ends within the hour and including the bp. is under $2,100:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1117392/1908-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-No-Motto-PCGS-AU-58-CAC

On 3/20/2022 at 11:38 AM, JKK said:

When I worked at the coin shop, the people we hated above all were the gold buyers and sellers. The buyers, who were there to spend Biiiiig Money, expected their derrieres to be smooched Real Hard because we were going to be making Big Money on them (we were such vampires, you know, preying on the poor metal hoarder), and often went insane when we charged them about $20 above melt per ounce (as if we were somehow breaking the law). The sellers were even worse. Bringing gold, they expected us to kiss up to them; they were shocked to find that we didn't quite pay melt, and that we weren't even very excited about any of it. And in the meantime, they kept throwing out conversational leads inviting us to endorse their world views. To anyone who thought it through, of course, the reason would be obvious. Let's see: how about we tie up thousands of dollars of capital in something tethered to a metric we cannot control, on which we will probably lose money anyway because of when people buy and sell it, and when even at flat pricing our margin is about 5% or less, and where buyers and sellers are unbearable. Yeah, let's go deep on that. We could have spent that money on world coins and gotten far better margin; ditto for old currency, even US coins.

I'm not surprised you saw this.  Alot of people who are "Gold Bugs" and PM collectors are quirky and a bit eccentric -- not to mention cheap. 

I'm happy my LCS and others make a few $$$ buying and selling from me.  It's the cost of LIQUIDITY which means that when I have to sell something they are there to buy from me even if I only get 97% of spot bullion.  I'm happy to pay it.

One thing I noted is the LCS's in my area have NO INTEREST whatsoever in buying Silver Certificates specifically and most paper money generally.  I think one guy said he'd give me like $10.50 or something like that for 10 SCs.

On 3/20/2022 at 11:24 AM, Coinbuf said:

I can think of three firms that consider, and refer to themselves as premier dealers, that operate this way for the Long Beach show.   From what I have read and heard that is true for these firms at other big shows as well, they are not there to deal with the general public.

At FUN 2020 -- which opened on a Thursday -- I would say there were no noticeable abandonded booths until Saturday, Day 3 of the event.  Thursday and Friday very busy and full with tables staffed.

Some departures Friday afternoon.

On 3/20/2022 at 11:40 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I am sure this has been covered... but is there a section of the forum of the equipment and set-up/settings these top coin photographers use?  I am not ready to dump a lot of money into camera equipment, but it would be nice to learn to improve the quality of my own shots.  Obviously, there are lots of video tutorials, but wondered if any of the best had solid advice also?

Photography isn't my expertise, but I will say that an LED light bulb with the coin angled at 30 degrees and me facing it at that angle reduces glare and gives a real-life shot of the coin with a basic smartphone on default settings.

If any of you are interested in Indian Head Coins, there's a Jim O'Neal Catalog of $10 Saint-Gaudens for sale on Ebay that looks pretty good. 

On 3/19/2022 at 9:46 PM, Coinbuf said:

Some copper has been the exception to this rule, half and large cents while still in demand have taken a side seat in the current market rush.   Silver and gold coins, especially large silver and gold coins are front and center, at least that is my take on the market currently. Edited to add:  While it is true that we hear a fair amount of groaning and moaning about dealers that complain they cannot get inventory, at the same time every show report I read is loaded with accounts of collectors buying multiple 5 figure coins.   That begs the question, if material really is that difficult to obtain what are these collectors buying at these shows for such large sums of money.

And I have learned that the Big Action takes place among the dealers themselves BEFORE the shows start, or very early on Day 1 when they open.  I never knew that.

I've heard that 80% of all the activity/dealer activity could be done pre-show.

On 3/19/2022 at 10:51 PM, Just Bob said:

I have a feeling that this scenario could be played out in many locations throughout this country. I really believe that there are a lot more coins in the raw than most people realize. And I don't just mean common Morgans or Walking Liberties. The idea that all of the good coins have already been slabbed is way off base, in my opinion.

To an extent, I get where you are coming from, JB.

But if those coins didn't come out during the big rise in silver/gold in 1979-80 or later booms....plus being handed down to family, friends, estate sales, or others once the original buyers/inheritors passed on in recent decades.....I don't know when they come out.

With internet access, everybody can find out what a coin is worth or how they can go about getting it evaluated (graded).  It appears from my readings that the number of mini-hoards has DECLINED in recent years/decades from when we were kids or young adults.

I hope I am wrong, as I would love for a few more dozen of our favorite tough-to-get coins show up in the population census. 

But I'm not holding my breath. 

On 3/19/2022 at 7:32 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Baltimore last year was a huge hit for me. LOTS of great half cents and I was able to pick up some nice ones!  I left happy.  Thats why I want to go back.

That's interesting because the one thing we've heard the last 2 years is that dealers have no inventory and are able to sell what they get online and enjoy higher margins.

On 3/19/2022 at 5:41 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

I'll put in my 2 bits.  I bumped into an old antique store but he had a whole room full of great currency and coins.  Lot's of CC Morgans and a bunch of hard to find stuff.  Yup.. Like you JP, we hit it off.  He asked me to go into the other room, and he opened the safe.  He called me back in and I nearly choked.  1878 CC Morgan, 1836 Capped Bust Half, 1882 O/S Morgan, and a 1928 (P) Peace Dollar just to name a few.  I was stunned at the quality (and non-magnetic too!).

How would you have graded some of those coins, Chris ?

On 3/19/2022 at 2:37 PM, RWB said:

You'll have to ask Stacks. My source was a MTB employee who was involved. I think he's dead now.

Fascinating stuff.  That's why it's so important these guys tell their stories in writing or orally or better yet on tape before they pass on.  The information they have (assuming it's verifiable or flows from common sense) is invaluable.

On 3/19/2022 at 4:34 PM, DWLange said:

you think maybe Kossoff and Kreisberg just sold someone else's hard-to-sell small denomination inventory alongside the few hundred (or fewer) Menjou gold coins ?

The greater part of the 1950 "Menjou" sale was consigned by Cincinnati insurance executive Charles M. Williams, who didn't want his name used. The Menjou name was pasted onto several additional catalogs during the 1950s whenever a few of his coins were included.

That's interesting and I do recall the name Charles Williams and Cincinnati in my readings.  But can't recall a direct link to Menjou -- thanks, Dave !! 

On 3/19/2022 at 1:30 PM, J P Mashoke said:

  I was at a shop down south last summer and I was looking at some Morgan's. Nothing in the shop was in slabs everything was as is or in 2X2. I looked on one shelf and he had some CC's I said wow you don't see a lot of those sitting on the shelf's nowadays. He was a cool guy and we had a lot in common he took me over to his safe that was a 4 foot tall tank opened it up and he had tubes upon tubes of CC's and other collectable coins. He grabbed some tubes opened them up and slid them CC's out like they were a can of Pringle potato chips. Real nice stuff toned and MS.  He winked at me and said he was going to be closing shop soon and retire. Coin collectors are few and far between nowadays with internet availability, but he would never go hungry.  

What's he gonna do with his inventory ?  Older guy or just wants to retire ?

On 3/19/2022 at 12:50 PM, RWB said:

MTB said they were the "originator" (or some such term). 

On Stack's own website or the article I cut-and-pasted, Stack's claims the foreign bank contacted them and the volume of coins was so big that they reached out to MTB and brought them in:

"...Stack's was contacted by a foreign bank to see if we would be interested in acquiring a large holding of United States gold coins, primarily Saint-Gaudens double eagles. We learned that this was among the major banks that received U.S. gold coins as part of government payments.  The size of the inventory (the exact number still remains a secret) was so great that we decided that for such a large hoard we would partner with one of our New York colleagues, Manfra, Tordella and Brooks (MTB) to finance and sell this great find nationwide."

On 3/19/2022 at 12:46 PM, RWB said:

It usually comes down to searching for specific coins that are mentioned in archival literature, or learning in advance that a dealer or collector will have a specific piece at a show. Those are very unusual, and the amount of time available to devote to that is limited. Another way to look at it is this: an ordinary day examining US Mint documents will yield more useful information than any but the most extraordinary day at the largest coin show. That is the situation when searching for the unknown rather than looking for the "known."

Understood.....but I think a day at a coin show is more FUN  than scouring Mint documents through the Newman Portal. 

On 3/19/2022 at 12:20 PM, J P Mashoke said:

There may still be a large generation of old-timers like Kurt who don't care if there coins have a grade they know what the coin is worth therefore no need to put it in plastic. I like slabs only for the benefit for my family to not have to guess what it is after I am gone . The Half Eagle Indian I posted in the other thread was a tray coin before I got it. Not that it is a extremely valuable coin but I think there are still some big collections out there without plastic on them.

Oh there probably are....and there are also mini-hoards (not sure about Big Hoards).  But you've had an explosion in gold and silver prices since the TPGs first came around and anybody COGNIZANT of what they have probably realizes condition rarity and year of mintage determine riches.  So many/most have probably been found.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong.  Still hoping we find more of the rare coins even if it would wreak havoc on the pricing structure. 

On 3/19/2022 at 11:48 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I would not be to sure about that I have been to a few coin shops that don't put the real good stuff out front and have really big safes in the back. You did say not all .LoL

Gold coins ?  Probably generic commons like the coins you are considering.  If they know it is going to be sold as a bullion subsitute, they probably realize that most buyers don't care that it's not graded/slabbed.