GoldFinger1969

On 3/12/2022 at 10:38 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

One thing I've noticed about the coins I had collected, back around 2014, is that if I were to start from scratch, today, I would never have accomplished my objectives. Other than David Lawrence, no one has gold inventory right now… they've all been "picked clean."

I see quality on HA and GC all the time, do you look there ?

On 3/12/2022 at 10:38 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

And when I look at just my main type set, I had a NGC Registry ranking for my 1834 — 1933 Gold Type Set of 48 late last year at some point… when I joined the Registry. My rank is now 58.  There are a lot of new collectors out there, and they're well heeled.

That's something we have debated here for quite a while here:  the long-term demographic strength of the hobby and the influx (?) post-Covid with all the new Keyboard Collectors.  Your perspective is interesting and noted.

I'll check out your registry, thanks ! 

"The Best One" MS-69 Wells Fargo Hoard 1908 No Motto for Sale:  Just went up for sale, a month to go.  Bidding over $100,000 right now.  Should be very interesting to see what it goes for.  I thought last time it was sold for $95,000 in the Morse Sale (2005) but maybe it re-sold at a later date for more, I'll have to check. 

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1132876/1908-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-No-Motto-Wells-Fargo-Nevada-Gold-The-Best-One-PCGS-MS-69

On 3/12/2022 at 3:42 PM, RWB said:

The fellow with merely "lying and trying" to sell an overpriced coin.

Definitely not the case.  It was a SHE. 

On 3/12/2022 at 3:58 PM, RWB said:

The sadly frustrating part is that technology can eliminate all the guessing and squabbling.

What do you mean -- you mean using like special lights/lasers to reflect off the coins ?

On 3/12/2022 at 2:48 PM, zadok said:

....im sure their animosity prob started from when they both were in "morning glory" he was fairly well established n she upcoming, they both had strong political opinions n not congruent ones, i believe at one time spencer tracy threathened him over comments he had made bout katherine as well...i doubt she was much of a forgiving type once she was offended...i believe adolphe bought $20G in rolls for various monetary reasons n his other coins more from a collectors perspective....

As you know, he had 2000+ coins in that 1950 auction and the bulk of them were low-denom coins selling for $15 or less.

Nice coin, Bill ! 

It must be tough to see the cameo effect on a small denomination coin.

On 3/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, RWB said:

The present situation also discourages buyers and sellers from making a close examination of coins they handle. Edges get ignored, too.

Definitely agree.  I know when I bought my last batch of (for me) pricey coins at FUN 2020...I spent probably 10-15 minutes looking at the coin (1923-D Saint) different ways.  I could tell it was a nice coin and it was an MS-66...but I deliberately looked for FLAWS to see if anything would cause me to say "I should have waited or passed" a few days or week later.  I really didn't see anything glaring and other MS-65's and 66's were definitely more noticeable with flaws/bagmarks.

Oh yeah...the dealer INSISTED the coin was probably an MS-67 !!! 

On 3/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, RWB said:

The beginning collector also doesn't bother to learn about grading coins -- and some of the so-called dealers could care less. The present situation also discourages buyers and sellers from making a close examination of coins they handle. Edges get ignored, too.

They learn, but probably at a slower rate.  Similar thing in astronomy where people rely on computerized Go-To scopes instead of being able to use a celestial map or star chart.

On 3/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Informed, slow and deliberate is the best way to build a collection, regardless of collectible.

What fun is collecting if you go out and buy the very collection you want to accumulate in a week ?  What fun is that ?

On 3/12/2022 at 12:22 PM, MarkFeld said:

There’s a huge difference between standing behind the coins they sticker and making markets in them.

Understood....I used them interchangeably, probably shouldn't have.  Thanks ! 

On 3/10/2021 at 8:00 PM, Woods020 said:

The timing is perfect. A nice 1933 double eagle is about to go to auction it seems. That would be one heck of a coinaversary gift!

I had that very idea, but Sotheby's would not take an out-of-town, 3rd-party check, postdated to 2026. 

On 3/10/2021 at 8:00 PM, Woods020 said:

Aside from that I’m in a similar position. I’m closing on a year and have bought way too much that is all over the board. But I’ve slowed down buying to almost nothing and reading everything I can get my hands on. I’ll tell you it’s worth the pause to educate yourself more. I’ve kicked myself several times for things I wish I had known before jumping in head first buying. Lots of great books that members can recommend if there is a certain area of focus you want to learn more about. 

Same thing here.  Have gone on some buying sprees (usually less-expensive stuff, except for FUN 2020) but get more enjoyment reading about coins....picking a target....waiting and finding the right one....and then buying 1 or 2 of the type.

On 3/12/2022 at 9:56 AM, RWB said:

Without an empirical-based standard that is generally accepted, the numbers are not meaningful and cannot be enforced. (I vaguely recall a court case long ago, before numbers, and back when the ANA Guide was the de factor standard, of someone being convicted of fraud for gross overgrading.) Collector's only redress is to the TPG and its opinion.

I could see overgrading, even with judgment and leeway, being fraudulent if someone was WAY overgrading coins, especially AU coins (AU50-55) with clear signs of wear/circulation as MS-60's to novices/beginners.

Still, look at what passed for information decades before the TPGs....like in that Menjou Catalog I just got.  No grades, just 1-line descriptions.  Even the Price Catalog from 1998 with a decade of the TPGs had many coins way UNDERgraded in subsequent labels.

But yeah, this will never be an exact science.  Still think for the average or beginner collector it's light-years better than pre-1986.

On 3/12/2022 at 11:39 AM, MarkFeld said:

 But they certainly don’t make markets in anywhere near all coins they sticker.

That seems logical, especially since now they have issued so many more coins than when JA said back in 2008 and 2009 that they stood behind all their coins ready to buy or sell.

Thanks, Mark. 

On 3/12/2022 at 11:16 AM, MarkFeld said:

And a CAC sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that “JA and friends would like to buy your coin”. Everyday, CAC stickers numerous coins that they’d have very little or zero interest in buying.

I think what you are saying is true Mark...but doesn't CAC also make a market in the coins they sticker ?  Or at least when they started that was part of their business model.  Maybe they don't do it anymore.

CAC just added discussion forums on their website I believe, I was scanning it a few weeks ago.  I don't belong but I'll see if there are any threads on this topic.

On 3/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, zadok said:

...not that i am aware of...the 3-4 menjou coins i have owned were listed as ex-menjou coins in their pedigrees, many of his coins were purchased from famous collections n many ended up in other to be famous collections, he was keen on rarities....if the pedigree documentation is well grounded i see no reason that the tpgs wouldnt label one of his coins as ex-menjou....one of my menjou coins came with the original menjou envelope...many of the circa 1950-60-70s auction catalogs profusely listed the coin pedigrees if known n often came with the previous collection envelopes i.e. brand, atwater, clark etc etc....just as many of my current coins have retained their pedigree documentation i.e. eliasberg, norweb, garrett etc etc....the tpgs r very strict on their acceptance of pedigree documentation, a strong audit trail required...auction house documentation useful, photo comparison to early cataloged coins if available very helpful.....

Thanks Zad...unfortunately I had just been born when Mr. Menjou passed so no chance to buy his coins in the years or immediate decades after his death.  Didn't even know about him until I read that he had a bunch of the MCMVII HR's....but my mother knew him from the movies (she's a big TCM fan ).

Have NOT seen any estimate of how many of the MCMVII HR's he may have had at one time, but I think I may have read that he had as many as 150 of them (or was it 50 ?)?  That would have been a nice chunk of change in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's.  But he feared economic collapse and inflation and a collapsing dollar so putting Big $$$ into pricey gold coins (he had other non-Saints as I listed in the Auction Catalog Thread) doesn't surprise me.

Interesting fact:  he and Katherine Hepburn disliked one another. 

On 3/12/2022 at 10:17 AM, RWB said:

CAC means nothing except that JA and friends would like to buy your coin.

Which means it is probably not one of the coins that got graded loosely.  Which I think is somewhat valuable.  We can debate how much.

On 3/12/2022 at 10:17 AM, RWB said:

Some places have piles of excuses for calling worn DE "uncirculated" or "mint state." These are all moldy bologna. DE were packed tightly in bags to avoid wear, and when fresh from a new bag are just as nice as the Liberty coins you see from ship wrecks or small hoards. Abrasion comes from handling in banks, reserve vaults, etc.

I'm sure we answered this in the SAINTS BOOK Thread....but is there a magic "tell" that would show abrasion as coming from handling and banging against other coins, as opposed to circulating or being touched by human hands ?

On 3/12/2022 at 10:22 AM, RWB said:

Numismatics is very slow to change. The internet has made change more difficult. Anyone can copy and paste from one obsolete reference to something "new" in 3-clicks of a tailless mouse, thus perpetuating false information.

Agreed...but for the coins I look at most in-depth (Saints, Morgans, etc.) the commentaries -- which are understood to be a mix of opinion and facts -- are part of the story-telling I love.  Even if something is not 100% factually true -- if it is clearly labeled as opinion or conjecture -- it can be valuable.

Just have to separate them and be clear what is what. 

On 3/12/2022 at 10:08 AM, RWB said:

Print is the only time-stable medium.  I have 2 books in digital-only format. Annual Assay Commission – United States Mint, 1800-1943 is on 4 DVDs, and Silver Dollars Struck Under the Pittman Act of 1918 is on a CD. Sales have been very limited compared to print books. These were published 12 and 11 years ago, respectively, and the formats are considered obsolete by some.

Formats may be obsolete, but I'll bet there still lots of good information in those books.

That's why I don't mind looking at old auciton catalogs or a book that hasn't been updated in years or decades.....in many cases, the commentaries about coins are still valid in the present.

Did you ever get the Saint, Olympics ?

On 3/12/2022 at 1:06 AM, Woods020 said:

Out of curiosity are you planning on putting any of your future works in an electronic format? My daughter is in her first year of college and I think we have bought two physical books in total so far. Everything is electronic it seems. I read a lot and do most of my “fun” reading on my iPad. Reference books is where I prefer a physical book, but I need to start adjusting it seems. With ebooks it’s obviously a moot point and everything is easily searchable. I do feel for you. You are writing primarily for an aged audience who want things as traditional as possible when the world is growing in use of technology around them. 

I don't think that is up to Roger unless he presses the issue.

I do know that I reached out to HA to ask about an electronic or PDF format for the Saints book -- no luck.  Ditto for most of our classic books that aren't revised regularly.  Maybe the Red Book and a few others are, but the ones with really indispensable information are print-only for the most part.

On 3/11/2022 at 10:54 PM, RWB said:

The numbers are, in reality, meaningless - they have no standard definition, so any "number" can be anything. Several court decisions reinforce that  -- NGC, PCGA, ANACS numbers are just as valid/invalid as NNC, SEGS, FSLS, or any other numbers. That is pathetic.

Well, some of those are legit and I've heard of, others could just be a guy with an alphabet-symbol company filed in Delaware.

Biggest Sellers & Surprises, 1950 Menjou Auction:

Here's a listing of the non-Saint notable sales in the 1950 Mejou Auction:

1802 Half Dime...at the time, they said no coins better than FINE were found and one in 1907 got $500.  But this coin was estimated $ $750 and went for $425.  According to the book, only 16 known (still the case ?).

1894-S Dime: 24 minted, only 7 said to exist at the time (still the case ?).  This coin was supposedly a proof.  Estimate @ $2,500 but went for $1,850.

1873-CC Dime:  One of the FEW coins that went above the estimate...and boy did it !!  Estimate was $1,000 it went for $3,650.  Without arrows, described as a superb gem on par with the 1804 Dollar or 1913 Nickel.

1876-CC 20 cent piece (never even knew they made those !!)....estimated for $2,000 but went for $1,325.  10 specimens believed at the time.

1823 Quarter:  1823 over 22.....estimated $750 but sold for $465.  Another coin that sold for a higher price a few years ealrier in the "World's Greatest Collection" auction.  Somebody named "Atwater" also had a $750 specimen.

1827 Quarter:  $3,000 estimate, $2,725 sold.  5 or 6 believed to exist at the time.  A 2nd coin, a proof less lustrous, estimated $1,000 but went for $675.

1796 Half Dollar: 15-star variety....some rub/wear on high point....die line....estimated $600, sold for $590.  The 16-star variety.  Light circulated evidence or bag marks it estimated for $600 and sold for $600.

1838 New Orleans Half Dollar:  Beistle (1929) said 3 pieces; K&K said 6-7.  One sold at WGC for $1,600, Atwater $2,200, and Neil estimate was $3,000...this one ended up going for $1,650 despite estimate of $3,000.

1853 Half Dollar: The Standard Catalogue had no value for this rare coin so no estimate...went for $890.  The WGC, Atwater, Neil, Dunham, Geis, Higgy, Olden, and Stickney collections didn't have one.

1834 Quarter Eagle:  Estimate $600, sold for $540.  With motto.  Proof-like might be proof.

1841 Quarter Eagle:  Estimate $6,000, sold for 45,100.  Highest priced coin.  Struck only for private collections.  Only 6 or 7 struck in total, 2 for U.S. Govt.

1863 Quarter Eagle:  $1,250 estimate, $975 actual price.

1854-S Quarter Eagle:  $1,250 estimate, $725 actual.

1875 $3 Gold Piece:  $3,000 estimate, $2,675 sale price.  Brilliant proof as listed in the catalog.

Panama Pacific Set:  $1,350 estimate, $1,115 actual sale price.

$4 Gold Stella:  $550 estimate, $500 actual price.   Latin Monetary Standard creation coin.

1795 Half Eagle:  $750 estimate, $500 actual price.

1815 Half Eagle:  $5,000 estimate sold for $3,000...uncirculated, so worth 50% more than Standard Catalog price (VF).  Could be finest 1815 of all.

1819 Half Eagle:  $2,000 estimate, $1,100 sale price

1821 Half Eagle:  $1,000 estimate, $600 sales price.  The 1822 -- only 3 around -- had Brand Coin sell for $14,000 in 1944...a record for any coin.

1827 Half Eagle:  $2,200 estimate, $1,525 sale.

1828 Half Eagle:  $2,200 estimate, $1,402 sale.

1829 Half Eagle:  $3,000 estimate, $2,200 sale.  Small date.

1858 Eagle:  $3,500 estimate, $1,750 sale.

Since you included the FMTM cover.....I would find an index to basic and beginner concepts of a mint:  what is a planchet....how gold/silver get turned into coins....the processes that raw ore goes through before becoming a coin....striking quality vs. speed....what is a die...what is a hub.....what is a collar....etc etc etc.

As you and I have discussed, FMTM is a much harder book to read than the Saints book (I also have more interest in Saints than the minting process so the former was an easier read for me personally), though if there was a section on Saint striking I probably need to re-hit that section.  But I got alot more out of the Saints book than FMTM for all the reasons we've discussed....so....re-reading each will improve my recollection of details in the Saints book....but give me a broad overview of concepts in FMTM.

And of course...the Saint book reads easy with the annual and special chapters.  FMTM is so detailed an index (in the book or on CD) helps to find specific items.

On 3/11/2022 at 5:49 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

100% 

That's why I say if you have a particular fondness for a coin set....and there is commentary from the HA Archives or any other website....cut-and-paste or copy or download it and save it on YOUR PC (with backups !) in Word and/or PDF format.

Who knows when something will disappear or be taken off or even be lost because of a web or hacker problem.  I PDF every 5 new pages with the RWB Saints Book Thread.