GoldFinger1969

On 8/12/2022 at 6:37 PM, zadok said:

...u mite need to reconsider n accept that the saints series doesnt warrant a second edition per se

They're still selling the 1st Edition, not sure if they are actually printing new ones or dipping into inventory.

But I know that a revised and updated edition has to be less time-consuming for whoever does it than the initial edition.  You have to update the price grids....replace dated statements of fact no longer valid....give new information on the coin for various years....maybe include a new chapter or two on the big Saint events since the 1st Edition (the 1933 Saint and coin booms-and-busts come to mind).

But it's got to be less time than writing the initial book.  You have an outline already in place.  And I suspect that many of the buyers of the 1st Edition a long time ago would purchase the 2nd Edition -- I know I would, and that's with RWB's book out there, too.

On 8/12/2022 at 6:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve driven over 6 million miles in my life.

Were you a truck or cab driver ?  Assuming you're in your 70's or earlier, that's close to or over 100,000 miles a year which is about 300 miles a day EVERY day or 400 miles for every working day.

Or maybe you were just too high with your estimate. 

On 8/12/2022 at 9:05 PM, EagleRJO said:

Also, coins are typically not a good "investment" compaired to returns of other traditional investment types historically, and atm it looks like we are in a high price bubble for coins, so i am avoiding buying any of the more expensive coins I may be interested in for now.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you consider your coins an "investment."  Stocks, bonds, mutual funds, cash -- those are investments.  Coins are like art or baseball cards:  highly speculative.

Eagle, I don't think we are in a "high price bubble" for coins.  Bulls and bears can make a case for higher or lower prices at any time, including the present.  But to me a bubble is 1978-80 or 1989-90.  We've also had big price moves but which weren't bubbles IMO like 2000-08 and 2009-11.

I'm all for a bear case even if I think bullish is in order....but saying we are in a bubble NOW doesn't resonate with me.  If gold prices tanked for some reason, that could drive gold coins alot lower but is gold at unsustainable levels ?  I don't think so.  Trading range going back 5-10 years or so, depending on when you measure from.

On 8/12/2022 at 6:43 PM, Diamondslayer said:

I do. I want rare coins, and knowing that there are under 1500 of these coins known gets me excited for their future invstment. Plus a real weird fact I like is that this was Lincoln's inaugural year. I would love to have a ship wrecked coin, but funds are tight right now. I hope no more ships are found in the meantime with these 1860-s coins. lol. But, I will keep working hard to build my collection. 

I don't believe there are other shipwrecks which went down with American coins.  I think RWB (noted author and researcher) posted here about the SS Republic (I think that was the ship) and how there MIGHT be more Liberty DEs and other gold coins but they've been talking about a salvage for years and are missing key location information. 

On 8/12/2022 at 3:40 PM, World Colonial said:

Good point on Red Books.  I forgot about those.  Last one I have is dated 1998, I think.  That's the last time I returned to collecting, one of multiple "sabbaticals".

I think they are up to the 7th Edition for Morgans but like I said above, they are still on the 2004 1st Edition for Liberty and Saint Double Eagles, which is frustrating.

BTW, Welcome Aboard, DS. 

Do you have an interest in Double Eagles or gold coins in general...or maybe the Liberty type coins ?

Not sure about your level of knowledge and expertise, but there's tons of good stuff on these forums....in the coins sold in the past over at HA (the coin information attached to some of the rarer coins is priceless)....and in some very good Double Eagle books (maybe you have them). 

I follow Double Eagles, but my interest is more in the Saint-Gaudens types.  I do hope to add some Liberty's in the future.

On 8/12/2022 at 4:56 PM, Coinbuf said:

I looking I found that in Jul 2022 an NGC AU50 coin was auctioned at Heritage for $3,024.   And in Feb 2022 a PCGS AU55 was auctioned by Heritage and fetched $3,240.   Again this is just raw data and I did not look at the coins in those two lots to determine if those coins were (imo) low or high end for the grade coins.   It seems that you spent approx. $3,750 for your coin and using the above auction data it sounds to me as tho you paid full retail+ price.   If the coin you bought is CAC approved or would be considered by experienced collectors and dealers as better than average for an AU53; then the price you paid would be more in line with current market prices, imo.

I agree with Coinbuf.  

Let me add, assuming you create a HA account and can see the prices, I do not believe you paid a bad price for the coin (subject to seeing it, of course).  It seems to be right in the middle of the range for AU coins, though the price appears to drop a large amount when going from AU-58 to AU-50.  Note a recent sale of a PCGS M-61 for just under $10,000 earlier in 2022.

It also appears that these were coins impacted by the SS Republic salvage.  So that may have increased supply (decreased price) or maybe EXPANDED the circle of folks who could collect this coin thus bringing in new buyers who never could afford the previously supply-constrained price (like with the SS Central America and the 1857-S).

I'm not an expert on the 1860-S or the SS Republic so I'll let others chime in. 

On 8/12/2022 at 3:26 PM, Diamondslayer said:

It is a 1860 double eagle no motto au53 NGC. Feeling nervous, be as diplomatic as possible...lol. And where do you find the auction price?

Most of use Heritage Auctions, probably the premier auction site for coins, and Great Collections, a recent up-and-comer.

Here are some recent 1860-S sales from the HA archives:

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1||Lot+No|0&N=790+231+51+402&Ntt=1860-S+Double+Eagle&ic4=SortBy-071515

You should login/create an account if the coins don't show up.   It looks like sales earlier in 2022 for AU50-58's range from $3,000 to $3,800 or so.  That includes the buyers premium (bp).

On 8/12/2022 at 3:05 PM, Diamondslayer said:

If I buy in between PCGS and NGC price is it a good deal retail?? So I paid in between a NGC 3500 and a PCGS 4000. I don't know if I should give anymore info or not. Like the coin info and the price I paid. Shoul I be buying below NGC and where? 

Are those the $$$ amounts for the coin in question, $3,500 and $4,000 ?

We have no way of judging since we don't know what coin it is.  It could be a coin that comes up for sale every week or every few weeks....or it could be one that comes up every few months or less.  That is important.

And using recent auction prices for an identical or similar coin is probably the best.

On 8/12/2022 at 12:04 PM, World Colonial said:

Most US series should have a potential market for several thousand, but I still doubt more than a few (if any) actually sell that many.

Yes, I would think runs of a few thousand are appropriate.  But I think the RED BOOKS might be larger or they do succesive mini-runs because lots of people starting out will go to those books as a starter for knowledge.  Even thought it's getting dated, the 2004 1st Edition of Bowers DOUBLE EAGLE RED BOOK is still worthwhile as an easier read than Roger's magnus opus.  I do wish they'd do a 2nd Edition, though. 

The Akers and Bowers books on Saints were constructed nicely -- each book contains sections on other gold coins (Indian Heads, Liberty DEs) so you attract potential buyers other than Saints.  

On 8/11/2022 at 10:38 PM, cladking said:

I have to log in three or four times a week and the last time a couple days ago I ran into trouble.  It took me to a page that knew me but every time I left the page I was logged out again.  

If you were taken to the Registry Page by mistake....and especially if logging out and then logging in didn't solve the problem....you should use an Incognito Tab/Window to re-login. 

On 8/11/2022 at 9:23 AM, zadok said:

...no, the question posed was what % read those new hobby books nothing bout do they learn anything new...the answer is very few, %wise definitely not out of the single digits n most likely very low single digits...if the opposite were true the book publishers would be beating down doors...there is no money to be made selling a hundred or less copies of a book, hence private or subsidized publishing...the "red book" the old krause catalogs n QDB's books sold in the thousands because they were needed and/or interesting to both the specialist n the universal collector...i dont have actual records of sales but i would venture that DWL's books on money boards outsells most other specialized coin series books...if true there is a lesson there if not true then i am wrong....

Some people might not be into reading anything, let alone coin books even if they are a collector.

As a Saint and Double Eagle fan, there aren't that many books out there.  To me, you have to get Bower's Red Book on DE's, the dated but classic Akers/Ambio book on Indian Heads & Saints, and of course Roger's Saints DE book which is the modern Bible on Saints. 

There are estimated about 25,000 serious or type collectors of Saints....how many have bought any of those 3 books ?

We've gotten some active threads in the last few months and years, and folks keep them alive.  That's something.  The thread on RWB's Double Eagle Book is going on 2 1/2 years.  Almost 60 pages.  

Other forums.....GTG and Do You Like This Coin threads seem to dominate.  Unlike sports or politics threads where lots of people vent, nobody is going to vent on a coin forum.  So....the people here post about prospective purchases or actual purchases...which THEY like to talk about but others might not.  For example, I have no knowledge (or interest) on many of the coin threads here so I can't/won't post on them.  I simply have nothing to contribute other than congratulating someone on a nice purchase. 

That's why I post on and keep an interest in on more popular and expensive coins....like MCMVII High Reliefs in particular and Saints in general -- even though I have only a few of the latter and none of the former.   They're classic coins that MOST of us have some knowledge about, even if we don't actually have an interest in the coins and/or own any.   We can also debate things like the influence of PM prices on the coins, population data, new finds via hoards, and of course, unique items like the 1933 Saint(s).  On other forums, things get heated but I LOVE debating and going back-and-forth; what fun is it if everyone agrees with you ?  That's why I do like it when Kurt and I debated the Double Eagle case a while back with lots of posts.  I learned things from him; hopefully he got some stuff from me, too.

It's easy to find articles and books talking about the historical significance of Saints, Morgans, and a few other coins....not so Indian Cents, Nickels, or Quarters.

We should know in another year or so. 

On 8/10/2022 at 10:04 PM, VKurtB said:

Posters? Absolutely. Which moderator(s)? The owner? Look, both the owner and the chief moderator don’t even collect coins. But what they BOTH DEMAND is having their gluteals osculated. 

They DID collect coins, I believe. 

On 8/10/2022 at 3:04 PM, VKurtB said:

Here’s the basic problem, Hoop. Coin people IGNORE THE LAW!!!  Goldfinger and his past posts are illustrative. “There was no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the coins were stolen.” True, but irrelevant.  “The Government should have had the burden of proof.” Well, too bad, they didn’t as a matter of law.  These are the things that matter, to the law but not to coin people.  There is almost no dispute on the facts in the Langbord case. The coins COULD CONCEIVABLY HAVE BEEN EXCHANGED COIN FOR COIN IN ACCORDANCE WITH PAST PRACTICES. The problem is that is irrelevant and coin people don’t accept its irrelevance.  There was only one finding that matters, and the only question the jury needed to answer: “Is it more likely than not that the coins left the Mint by surreptitious means, by ANYONE, not necessarily the Langbord’s ancestors?” Once you understand the ONLY question before the trial court, the ballgame is over. 

I agree with you here.  But I disagree on who should have had the burden of proof and other procedural rulings and so-called "findings of fact."

Plus, there's lots of other stuff that I agree probably shouldn't have been entered into court but showed the garbage thrown out by the government (i.e, threatening Roy Langbord with imprisonment).

On 8/10/2022 at 2:08 PM, VKurtB said:

No, that’s not correct at all. Not even close. They had to relent because some bureaucratic I-d-I-o-t had incorrectly issued an export certificate. Keep in mind that many thousands of gold coins only exist today because they “fled the country”. Otherwise, they’d be part of Ft. Knox bars today. 

Then why not argue the coin was illegal and the only reason there was an Export/Import License was some bureaurcratic i-d-i-o-t screwed up ?  The government clearly felt that without controlling the venue (i.e., judge shopping) and with discovery and other facts open to being included....they might not win. 

They MIGHT win -- but they might NOT.

I don't want to go into the whole 1933 DE again and hijack the thread...but this whole thing assumes that Switt or whomever got them out of the Philly Mint did so illegally and/or STOLE them.  No proof of either has ever been shown. 

That's why I always thought a settlement was fair to both parties.

On 8/10/2022 at 2:35 PM, VKurtB said:

Face it. CoinTalk exists for one and only one reason - to glorify the opinions of the owner and moderator staff. Period. Have any of them accomplished anything in this hobby? Any awards? Do they exhibit? Do they judge exhibits? Have they won any numismatic service awards? Do they publish? Numismatic Literary Guild Awards? A Clemy?  The answers are no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and no. But they have banned numerous people who have done those things. 

Several posters/moderators there have published books, articles, etc.

On 8/10/2022 at 1:11 PM, VKurtB said:

Have you missed the part where the conditions of sale of the Farouk/Fenton specimen included that it would always be the only one legal to own? That is what created the price both of the last two times it sold. 

Right, I'm saying that the Farouk/Fenton piece (part of the Elite Collection whose owner(s) post here ) itself was subject to seizure, civil penalties, and criminal charges.  The government changed their mind once evidence was found that showed they weren't 100% entitled to ownership.

On 8/9/2022 at 7:50 PM, EagleRJO said:

There is a flip side. I lost a bid on a $20 Gold Saint I liked by waiting just a hair too long on Sun. It didn't register my bid in time. Oh well, maybe I will get the next one I like for even less.

What year, grade, and price range was it ?  I know you've been looking, fingers crossed. 

On 8/10/2022 at 10:55 AM, VKurtB said:

Except that a “settlement” on other coins was PRECLUDED by the settlement on the Farouk/Fenton one. The one outcome that was NEVER going to happen was a settlement/split solution. 

Which the government also said was illegal, and they threw coin collectors in jail, until someone informed the clowns that their own Treasury had approved the transaction decades ago.

Because aside from that, the government NEVER makes mistakes. 

On 8/9/2022 at 3:04 PM, Oldhoopster said:

All the more reason to write a book to document it.  How many of those 150 people that heard your impromptu 3 minute explanation remember some, if any of it.  If you don't document it, then its lost to history. Unless you're waiting for people to seek you out and personally ask for your story 

Nah, it's not lost...that's what these message forums are for !!!  At least if you back-them-up as I have urged in case a key thread or the site ever goes down or information is accidentally/purposely deleted.

The Omega Counterfeit Mafia Thread over ATS is a lesson nobody should forget. 

On 8/9/2022 at 3:04 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Or give a presentation at the ANA or FUN.  The worst that can happen is that you've provided a baseline of facts and data that can be used for any future debates

I love this idea.  Should make for a GREAT debate and would probably be of interest to the ANA or FUN crowd.  

On 8/9/2022 at 2:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Why in the heck would that EVER be seen as important or even relevant? 

Ummm....they think the government is WRONG ?  

Has nothing to do with democracy, has to do with whether you think the stronger arguments were with one side or the other.  Even if you believe BOTH SIDES cases had merit and their arguments were both true (or partially true), you might feel a settlement/split was fair or that one side had stronger arguments.

On 8/9/2022 at 2:05 PM, VKurtB said:

That’s what probably annoys me most - people, even coin people, take advocacy positions on a lawsuit without having ANY knowledge of the applicable law. That grinds my gears more than you can ever imagine. It makes me fear for our judicial system generally. 

Don't forget that there are other coins with similar pedigrees and dubious release histories similar to the 1933 Double Eagle.  While nothing has happened with them....and while multiple transactions have taken place...the FDR EO and actual statements by Treasury/Mint officials that they should or could be seized probably resonates with hardcore goldbugs and collectors.

Myself, I see the differences in the 2 cases but you can also draw a not-so-straight line between the various possessions.

I grew up with a Tristram !!  And wasn't that the full name of Tris Speaker, the baseball player of the early-1900's ?

On 8/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, VKurtB said:

Says the impartial guy who has no particular interest in a specific outcome. At the 2016 Anaheim ANA show, Scott Travers tried to bring up the Langbord case as a topic at his Money Talk. He asked for a show of hands as to whether the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals got the Langbord case wrong. About 3/4 raised their hands (amateurs). Keep in mind I was a staffer for the Pennsylvania House Judiciary Committee Chairman at the time. Scott asked for a explanation why we felt as we do. I gave an impromptu 3 minute explanation why the court got it exactly right. Nobody else then wanted to oppose my view. Not one of the 150+ in the room, not even Travers. 

But you HATE gold, all other things aside. 

And no, I have no particular interest in the outcome.  I own no 1933 Double Eagles -- at least I don't think so... let me check my loose chain jar. 

As for the show of hands.....I am not surprised.  Most coin collectors never accepted the government's arguments, and my reading of threads on multiple sites showed that this was without regard to political party affiliation or ideology.  I would say at LEAST 80% of posters opposed the government's actions, and it may have been as high as 90 or 95%. 

As for why nobody opposed you, they probably weren't comfortable on the minutae of the case, the legal arguments, past cases, etc.  I'm not a lawyer like you but I am (or was, at one time ) pretty up-to-date on the rationale and arguments for a settlement or continued possession of the coins. 

I'd certainly have debated you at that show.  I might not have WON the argument on the merits, but I think I would have held my own.