GoldFinger1969

On 8/26/2022 at 3:31 PM, VKurtB said:

ANA shows have at times used guard dogs to err, umm, sniff out people who might try to hide out under draped tables. I haven’t heard of it in recent years. There IS 24 hour security. The thieves seem to have hidden under draped tables overnight. 

Unless a draped table is like a Romulan Cloaking Device....you simply lift the fabric up and see if a couple of hoods are underneath.  

Hint:  they're bigger than a breadbox. 

On 8/26/2022 at 2:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

And the Albanese interviews (yes, plural) pose too much of a challenge for my cataracts. Suffice it to say, per an interview conducted by [I forget who] memorialized by PCGS as Slab Lab 4, a high U.S. Mint official  recognized Fred Weinberg, intercepted him, arranged for a private viewing of the 1933 S-G D.E., and asked him only one question: is this the same coin you saw 25 years ago? F.W. answered honestly: he did not know.

I think someone posted that a few pages back.  Maybe Fred will chime in here.

On 8/25/2022 at 6:08 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Sorry if you touch on this already but I'm not going back through 69 pages of posts. 

You got something BETTER to do the next 2 weeks ?

Get to reading, FM !! 

On 8/26/2022 at 1:33 PM, gmarguli said:

NGC stopped grading moderns supposedly because Albanese thought they were overpriced in the marketplace and people would get burned. 

If this was 1988-90 it was possible modern silvers/golds were getting dragged upward by the bubble in numismatics.  That's all I can think of.

I think JA left NGC by the early-1990's, right ?

On 8/26/2022 at 1:07 PM, RWB said:

There are other things discovered, but they must remain unspoken. Interestingly, no one bothered to contact me about the one coin. Owners of the other coin refused to allow independent examination.

Well, I hope the "unspoken" stuff is eventually published by you somewhere. 

Not contacting you was dumb -- I mean, HA knows you wrote a book on DEs and have a few pages on these coins.  Maybe they lost your phone number.......

As for the owners of the coin saying no to an examination....thanks for nothing, dorks.  Do you think that Roger's eyes are going to generate heat vision and ruin the coin ?  Some people are just selfish.

On 8/26/2022 at 1:07 PM, RWB said:

Read the DE book. That's the last I have to say on the matter.

Going there NOW....just finished the write-up from HA on the coin.

On 8/26/2022 at 12:28 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

This "smash and grab" stuff has to start resulting in apprehensions and swift justice.  Like when a "display case" gets smashed, then the doors auto lock.  Nobody can leave, nobody can enter, and the owners are sufficiently armed — and protected in other ways, too — to defend their lives and property. 

Yes  !!!  Then knock-out gas is dispersed in the room.....the perps are rendered unconscious.....then they are hung over a vat of acid with ropes that are being slowly burned by candles.

Oh wait...that was from an episode of BATMAN. 

Never mind........

On 8/26/2022 at 1:22 PM, gmarguli said:

Then Albanese intentionally tried to kill the modern market and ended up only hurting NGC and helping give PCGS the market edge. Then Hall killed the modern market because he was clueless.

Huh ???????  

On 8/26/2022 at 12:46 PM, zadok said:

...when all else fails the coin speaks for itself n does not need Roger's vote of approval...similar to his incorrect assumptions on branch mint proofs...the coins r their own approval...the absence of documentation does not negate the evidence in front of u...i go with the DISPROVEN crowd, they use common sense....

1 thing we can agree on....the coin(s) ARE unique.  They are not just regular business strike 1921's.

On 8/26/2022 at 11:39 AM, AlaDurham said:

The first step I plan to take in the new year is to look at how much I have earned in 12 months and whether that figure has increased from the previous year.

And then buy a Saint, Liberty, or Indian Head ? 

On 8/26/2022 at 11:57 AM, zadok said:

..."experts"...very ambiguous term...im thinking the answer lies at 221B Baker Street....

Elementary, my dear Zadok....elementary.  

I have enormous respect for Roger but Saint experts like John Albanese were also very definitive in saying if you didn't see the date you'd swear it was a 1909 Proof.

I guess the $64,000 question...or rather, the $2,000,000 question is......if we can never conclusively trace the lineage and whether it is a proof or not....should the coin be marketed or sold as such ?

I think Roger says NO, for good/his reasons....others disagree and probably say unless it has been DISPROVEN as a proof, it gets the benefit of the doubt.

That's the debate in a nutshell as I see it. 

On 8/26/2022 at 10:04 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Over the past several months, organized groups have been targeting coin shows and coin shops. These offenses are becoming serious issues and have resulted in substantial losses.

If this is known, then all the more reason to take preemptive action.

Feds or local cops should also maybe run a sting...have a couple of retired cops pose as an elderly couple dealer with alot of cash at their table and then drive off.  See if anybody follows them. 

On 8/26/2022 at 10:04 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Further detail on the ANA Chicago 2022 "lunch break" brazen-theft of a display case of Rolex watches. I can't imagine the horror of the dealer/team when they returned from lunch. The following is a list of stolen property: Rolex 68NM8988 Card Submariner 40mm s/s MAYYY  Rolex 50548806 Explorer III 42mm s/s OYYY Rolex Cier Air King 34mm SS Y154239 Rolex Daytona 588u0014 40mm 18kt YG KYYYY Rolex GMT 40mm S/S TIYY E267488 Rolex Subcard 15A71239 MATYY Rolex Black Daytona 40mm s/s AYYY MD88041 Rolex 943YY485 Yachtmaster 31mm 18kt YG/ss IYYY Rolex DJ 18K YG L225047 Rolex 405n559 Datejust 41mm ST/WG OIYY Rolex 74z55203 Daytona 40mm Platinum MYYYYY Rolex 8579069 Day Date 18K yg MMYYY Rolex 1043462 Explorer II Explorer II 40mm s/s NSYY Rolex Datejust IOIY T390114 Rolex A560809 Day Date 36mm 18KT/YG MIOIY Rolex Day date 18k yg 6410355 Rolex K329143 PAP Submariner 40mm S/S TSIY Rolex Day date 18k yg 6 Rolex Explorer II 40mm s/s TAIY F699052 Rolex K358799 Explorer II 40mms/s TIYY Rolex U468886 Yachtmaster 26mm 18k w/g KYYY Rolex t760740 Datejust 36mm s/s CIYY Rolex K132037 Paper GMT Master ii 40mm s/s MMYYY Rolex E619102 Submariner 40mm S/S TOYY 1914D $10 Gold Indian ICG MS65 1883CC GSA Holder 1884CC GSA Holder 1856S NGC AU55 $3 gold 2- $20 Saints PCGS MS63 1850 1$ Gold 1820 Large Cent raw 1865 Five cent raw 1798 1$ pcgs XF Knob 9 1865 2 cent piece 1843-O 50 cent AU raw 2- 1909 D 5$ Indians NGC MS63 Over the past several months, organized groups have been targeting  coin shows and coin shops. These offenses are becoming serious issues and have resulted in substantial losses.  “As was driven home by the recent theft at the World’s Fair of Money, the American Numismatic Association is concerned about increased numismatic scams and crimes across the nation,” said ANA President Dr. Ralph Ross. “The ANA’s Board of Governors will convene a series of special meetings to conduct a thorough evaluation of the Association’s security protocols and take steps to address the emerging threats to the numismatic community’s property and physical safety. We look forward to collaborating with law enforcement, security specialists and members of our numismatic community for purposes of minimizing risks in our community.”

Wait a second....NOBODY was on the vendor show floor when this lunch was going on ?  WTF ?

There should be a person or persons -- maybe armed -- on the floor with all the valuable cases at all times.  My astronomy show has 24-hour coverage and this is with folks probably topping out at maybe $50,000 worth of merchandise (maybe 1 or 2 or 3 of the 100+ vendors have $100K or $150K with very expensive optics).

On 8/26/2022 at 9:02 AM, RWB said:

My opinion is in complete disagreement with the "proof" or "specimen" labels. That is fairy tale-driven absurdity.

I don't think it is "fairy-tale" driven.....I think you could be right but right now WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

What we really need is for all the experts like yourself to list their pros and cons on this coin....participate on a panel discussion or something or on an interactive blog....cross-check each other's arguments and suppositions....and then see if we can eliminate the false from the true and the we're-not-sures.  

JMHO. 

On 8/26/2022 at 9:02 AM, RWB said:

I've examined one of the two 1921 DE in question. 

Before or after your Saints book was published ?

So you think it was struck on a toggle press and not a medal press ?  But that still doesn't answer why this coin looks different and has a different surface.

Also, what do you mean in the book by "strongly clashed dies" -- what does that mean ?  Anybody ?

On 8/26/2022 at 6:44 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

It was published in this month's Numismatic News, THE 1933 DOUBLE EAGLE by R.W. Julian, in it he references the 2021 sale of the '33 so I believe it to be current, although much of the information contained within is rehashed and maybe this comment is as well.  From the article "(There is no proof that the Farouk coin was the one handled by Fenton. The true origin of the coin seized in 1996 is still unknown.)".

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike....I'll have to see if I can get that article.  

On 8/26/2022 at 6:44 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Also from the article, "It has been widely speculated that other 1933 double eagles will eventually come out of hiding even though the government will not authorize a sale in this country. There is little that the U.S. Treasury can do with respect to an auction held by one of the major European numismatic firms, and many think that such an event is only a matter of time.",

You would think now that anybody overseas who had a 1933 Double Eagle would have had a friend or contact make a public announcement OR contact the Treasury/Mint to feel them out.  Or they can just tell them "American court decisions are not binding on Europeans" -- which is true.

I know nothing about European law, but maybe the U.S. government would have to PROVE that the coins were stolen, not rely on this "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

On 8/26/2022 at 6:44 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I don't think the speculation of additional '33 DE's and the potential sale/s of such coins overseas is anything new, I just thought it interesting that Julian worded his comments strongly, IMO, and then to see PCGS slap Farouk on the label. Although the export permit for the Farouk coin was used to legitimize this coin, regardless if it was the original one exported.  EDIT: Maybe the label should read "Farouk Export Permit Used". 

If we assume an even 25 1933's were swapped out, then it's very plausible if you do a count of all 1933's ID'd to date....that there are some overseas and/or still in the U.S.

On 8/26/2022 at 1:27 AM, CaptHenway said:

We were always many weeks behind no matter how many people we hired and trained. I suspect that that was one of the reasons why PCGS and next year NGC got so much business, because ANACS could not handle the load.

Do you think that PCGS and NGC also had more well-known folks (D. Hall, J. Albanese, etc.) so that folks were more interested in seeking out those 2 TPGs ?  ANACS clearly had 1st-mover advantage.

On 8/26/2022 at 12:28 AM, FlyingAl said:

Personally, I think the two 1922 Proof Peace dollars were more important, but that's me. I would place the 1921 Saint in the top 50 category. The SS Central America has to be No.1.

Good points....and yeah, SSCA for the story behind it, the key coins like the 1857-S, the retrieval of the coins from the ocean.....no wonder so many people paid ridiculous prices for the coins 20 years ago.

On 8/25/2022 at 8:55 PM, gmarguli said:

I assume you're referring to modern coins. NGC stupidly restricted them at this time, but PCGS and ANACS accepted them.

You wonder, if with all the pent-up demand for classic coins when they first opened for business, if the 2 TPGSs would have even been able to handle modern coins individually submitted, let alone mass submittances like you see today with dealers sending in hundreds or thousands at a time.

On 8/24/2022 at 10:25 PM, VKurtB said:

The flat out MAJORITY of coins submitted today would not have been ACCEPTED for grading during the late 1980’s. They simply were not eligible. 

I understand how some purists may not like the grading of modern coins and there are certainly some bastardizations that we see with their sales.

But if it helps get NEW people into the hobby and keeps folks, I'm OK with it.  Doesn't affect grading or values of older certified coins.

Heritage said this about the 1921 SP Saint:  "We believe the appearance of the 1921 proof double eagle is one of the most important numismatic discoveries of the 21st century."  

I know they want to write exciting marketing pieces, but come on....maybe say it's one of the most important Saint-Gaudens numismatic discoveries ??

But the entire numismatic hobby ?  How about the hoards, Wells Fargo to SS Central America ?

I'm not an expert or even an experienced numismatist....and even though I am a Saint fan....I would say that this "discovery" is MAYBE Top 20 of the last 100-125 years.  I doubt it's Top 10.

JMHO....I'm re-reading the HA piece and then will hit Roger's book later this evening for his section on the coins in case we re-visit this (it was talked about over on the CAC Forums). 

On 8/25/2022 at 6:08 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

He also seemed pretty certain more '33's will be surfacing in the near future, from overseas sellers. I'll have to go back and reread the article to verify I'm remembering this correctly. 

Sounds like it was from YEARS ago, maybe right after Langbord.  

I heard and read similar stories about overseas 1933's and it MAY be true but I can't see anybody bringing them back now as they would be seized immediately.  We also had 1 domestic U.S. 1933 Saint that was "voluntarily" (!) handed over to the government in 2018. 

On 8/25/2022 at 6:08 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Is the Farouk connection certain, I read an article by Julian and he didn't seem convinced it was the same coin? He also seemed pretty certain more '33's will be surfacing in the near future, from overseas sellers. I'll have to go back and reread the article to verify I'm remembering this correctly. 

Julian is a pretty reputable numismatist, do you have that article ?  It might be dated.

On Farouk....I guess the conjecture is that the current coin owned by our friend EC is NOT the same coin that was actually owned by Farouk.  I guess someone is saying at some point someone "switched" coins which means the real Farouk coin is hidden.  Would someone have done this if the current coin is a higher-quality coin ?  I guess if they had enough foresight to realize only 1 coin would be allowed (and they really couldn't know that at the time), it was a good strategy. 

I believe someone once said that a picture of the Farouk Saint was different from what is the current coin -- or something like that.  Then there was a question of using stock photos vs. actual ones, etc...etc....etc.  Who the heck knows....all I know is that EC has the 1933 Saint and it's the only legal one and he's convinced it's the Farouk coin so that's it. 

Even I had trouble with that "New & Improved" or whatever on the 1921 SP.  That was clearly marketing.

Look, anybody with enough $$$ to bid on that certainly has some people working for him to ferret out the most minute details as to accuracy, that's how I look at it. 

The general public won't be fooled or misled -- unless the general public is bidding on 7-figure coins.