GoldFinger1969

On 8/29/2022 at 9:09 AM, RWB said:

It is an improvement largely because the auction companies do not have the advantage of manipulating the stated condition of the coin. The good ones now put more time into better descriptions. But it also greatly reduces the need for buyer knowledge in coin grading. Plastic holders also limit complete examination of coins by bidders.

True, but I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to learn grading...go to seminars...spend the time reading....etc.  Even if I educated myself, I might get caught buying a counterfeit coin that costs me thousands.

So....I do think that TPG grading has expanded the universe for those who simply don't want to become good at grading....or more like me....simply don't have the time.

Same thing with astronomy in a way:  people like myself used to get frustrated having to find objects manually and with maps, etc.  Today, you get a computerized scope or one with tracking/finding and you just punch some buttons and the scope slews to wherever you go.

Instead of having to fumble with maps in the cold and not know where to point the scope when it's late....I hit some buttons and can go to 5 or 6 objects in 3 minutes....then go inside and warm myself. 

On 8/28/2022 at 11:10 PM, VKurtB said:

“Considering he's one of the country's foremost numismatic authors/researchers and has written numerous scholarly books,” Outside of his contribution to the Whitman series for his Peace Dollar tome, he’s a “vanity published” author, nothing more. Virtually ALL of his other scholarly stuff can be learned by going into the The Numismatist archives, but you need to be an ANA member to access that. I really don’t find his posting of personal letters of 150 years ago particularly scholarly at all. As I wrote about a year ago, it’s largely regurgitation. 

Just because YOU didn’t know it before he put it before you, or HE didn’t know it before rummaging through NARA boxes, that doesn’t mean it’s not previously known, and AVAILABLE. There is SOOOO much out there in the literature, but I guess some people need to be spoon fed. Whatever. Go to a Kolbe and Fanning book auction at a NYINC some year. The numismatic books on offer literally fill a room. There is no shortage of information. But yes, most of it is NOT online, and sadly, much that is online is really hard to navigate. The Newman portal for example. 
There was at least one dealer at Rosemont whose booth was corner to corner stocked FULL with historic numismatic books, but yes, you have to hunt the ducks where the ducks are. You can’t sit behind a monitor. 

I’m tempted to start downgrading exhibits with websites in their bibliographies. It exhibits a lack of seriousness. It absolutely speaks to academic laziness. 

Your choice is YOUR choice.  I'm not denigrating it, so why should you denigrate others ?  I disagreed with your legal views on the 1933 Saint, but that didn't prevent me from LIKING your posts that were 180 degrees opposite mine on these forums.  I can appreciate someone's POV even if I disagree with it.  

So even if Roger's style is not your cup of tea, it doesn't mean you have to attack it.  That said, if you want to, fine.  Doesn't negatively impact me.

I think his other books -- most of which I HAVE NOT read -- are very good reads, full of information, and they've gotten good reviews from folks on these and other forums.  And while I am glad you gave him his due for the Peace Dollar book the amount of work on his SAINTS DOUBLE EAGLES book probably dwarfs that (but I haven't read the Peace Dollar book so I'm taking a leap of faith ).  It's a great book and I'd say that even if I didn't have an interest in Saints and/or Double Eagles.   The fact that we have a thread on the book and it's approaching 70 pages (not all the posts by me ) shows that the book and the topic got people talking about coins....and isn't that why we are all here for, Kurt ?

BTW, I found FMTM very tedious by comparision....much more difficult to read...but still a damn good book and if that topic in that detail is what interests you, you're gonna love FMTM.  Just because I didn't like it as much as his Saints book doesn't mean it stinks.  Not every book by a favorite author or every film by your favorite actor or actress is going to get an A+. 

On 8/28/2022 at 11:07 PM, VKurtB said:

Publicly, no. But I will hear eventually. If I had to bet right now, today, I’d bet it was an insider insurance fraud scam. The fact is that PPI Security is one of the top valuable items security firms in the entire nation, not a bunch of part-timers. 

Could be insurance scam, but I'm betting no.  I'm betting higher-end smash-and-grab types looking to sell this stuff on Ebay, Craigslist, or even Alibaba.

I'll wait for the autopsy. 

Wow, I didn't know that Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen had passed away over 5 years ago until clicking around reading articles about the Mantle card sale.   I must have totally missed it, but by then I had stopped writing my newsletter and listing famous people who died in the Off Topics section so I wasn't scanning the obits as much.

I found it interesting that apparently in his best year during the Baseball Card Bubble, Rosen said he did about $5.6 MM in transactions and made about $740,000 in (gross) income.  So basically he made about 12-15% margins buying and selling high-end cards.

Any beginner or newcomer here can simply create a thread...tell us what they have interest in....and then ask where to find information on those coins here, elsewhere, in print, etc.

Heritage just sold a PSA 9.5 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Rookie Card for $12,600,000.  I was at the show when Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen sold the card to the guy selling it for $50,000 back in 1991.  Unfortunately, I didn't have that much cash on me that day. 

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-cards/singles-1950-1959-/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-sgc-mint-95-1985-rosen-find-finest-known-example-/a/50058-53014.s?ic=hero-www-SportsPlatinumMantle-viewLot-50058-082822

On 8/26/2022 at 7:08 PM, RWB said:

Auctions are for selling. Long ago auction companies graded and examined coins before listing them. Today, a glance at a slab label is about it. The rest is a seller's job of building a story and enticing potential buyers.

Don't you think things are BETTER for the buyer and seller compared to when you needed coins graded estimate-wise by catalogers like with Menjou, Price, Eliasburg, etc ? 

On 8/28/2022 at 4:52 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve gotta be brutally honest here, @GoldFinger1969.  You’re REALLY GOOD at making completely unsubstantiated claims and outright lies about the security firm hired by the ANA. I guess that shouldn’t surprise me, being an RWB fan as much as you are. Why let facts get in the way of a good narrative, right? Pffft! Just fricken’ STOP IT, dude. You’re coming off as a horse’s patoot now. 

It's my OPINION Kurt...based on the facts we have to date and the accounts of what happened...so yeah, of course it's not gospel.  But it's not "unsubstantiated" or lies, either.

Having worked security alongside professionals I picked up a few tidbits.  I have friends who perform personal and property security for some of the country's wealthiest individuals.  So it's not just BS, OK ?  But I'm willing to let the ANA and their security firm divulge what went wrong and if I am wrong, I'll admit it and apologize.  How's that ?

What do you want to bet both parties say nothing ? 

And RWB has nothing to do with this issue or my opinion on it, but to the extent you have a professional or personal disagreement with him, that is even more "unsubstantiated" than my opinion.  Considering he's one of the country's foremost numismatic authors/researchers and has written numerous scholarly books, your "opinion" doesn't hold water. 

On 8/28/2022 at 6:50 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Then again, the $500,000 art heist at the Gardner Museum in 1990, to my knowledge, remains unsolved.

With that being said, I want to come clean and acknowledge guilt in participating......

On 8/28/2022 at 2:47 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ever notice how in Illinois its illegal to carry a side arm. And Chicago is one of the cities with the highest crime rate. They need to smarten up and let people defend themseleves from the crooks. The crooks will still carry if its illegal or not. Its the innocent people who cant protect themselves who are suffering from this unjust law. Sorry I kinda went off topic friends. Please forgive me. In no way do I mean for this post to be political. It just burns my hide to see innocent people become victims because theyre not allowed to defend themselves. 

You're assuming the leaders in those areas care about the killings.  Trust me, they do NOT. 

On 8/27/2022 at 6:00 PM, zadok said:

...we got bigger dogs....

Well, my guy above is 15 pounds.

Maybe I can rent him out to the ANA as an attack dog ? 

On 8/28/2022 at 1:17 PM, MarkFeld said:

It’s unlikely he will be banned from that forum.😉

I meant threads get deleted or a server problem where archived material is lost. 

BTW Zad, I've seen very few dog parks/runs that are larger than 900x100.  Most are about 200x100.  The one near my parents in South Jersey has one approximating your dimensions, maybe even more.  But that's the outlier among the dozen or so dog parks I've visited.

On 8/27/2022 at 9:35 AM, zadok said:

...thats 900' by 100'...i know people with dog runs bigger than that....

My major point remains:  hire TOP NOTCH security people and this incident never happens.  They stole the ENTIRE case in broad daylight....it's not like someone helped themselves to a 5-finger discount of a watch or two.  There is no way an entire case (which can't fit into a pants pocket) should leave on motorized vehicle past security.

You can also have cameras rigged to take pictures of anyone who crosses an electronic beam.

On 8/27/2022 at 9:26 AM, zadok said:

...and this security detail covers just how many acres of ground?...a few hundred sq ft?....

90,000 square feet. 

On 8/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, gmarguli said:

Albanese supposedly felt the modern market was crazy priced and the prices would eventually drop and people would get burned. Coins that were not rare were selling for a lot of money. There was only perceived rarity because so few had been submitted. So a 1964 Kennedy in PR66 should not be selling for $159 and a PR68 definitely should not be selling for $895, even if there were only 30 PR66 and 3 PR68 graded. So NGC stopped grading them. While possibly a magnanimous move by Albanese to kill the modern market, it was an incredibly stupid business decision as PCGS said screw that and continued to grade them. At this time it was still debatable as to which company would come out on top. PCGS clearly became the modern coin winner around this time. I don't recall when, but NGC realized their mistake and started to grade moderns but clearly way more liberally than PCGS.

Maybe NGC's "liberal" modern grading gave it the reputation for gradeflation in that area.

If Albanese knew more supply in "rare" moderns would be coming and thus dropping the price....it's not unlike what some expect with sportscards and memorabilia as more supply gets graded/certified.

On 8/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, gmarguli said:

Hall killed the modern market by getting rid of the PR70 grade. Whether his decision or not (he blamed Rick Montgomery who had left PCGS for NGC), he was the head of the company and he takes the blame. There was a time when PCGS PR70 coins actually sold for really good money. It was because PCGS was extremely tight on that grade, while NGC was much more loose. I recall selling PCGS PR70 state quarters for $150-$300. NGC PR70 would bring a small fraction of this. But everyone knew the deal.

Interesting.......

On 8/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, gmarguli said:

The market for modern proofs is pretty thin at the high price points. Only a few people will pay $300 for a PR70 when there are few of them graded, but you can make your money, and a lot of people will be happy with a PR69 for a fraction of the cost. However, when there are a ton of PR70s graded, most people will buy them at $25 instead of a PR69 since the cost isn't that much different. Since then, the 70 grade has only become more common and I believe this is only partially due to mint quality. Now a 70 brings little more than slabbing cost and a 69 may bring you $5. Even with the highly discounted bulk grading fees, there is no financial incentive to submit most moderns anymore. So when I say he killed the modern market, that's what I mean. There is no incentive for 99.9% of the people to submit moderns when you can buy a PR70 for less than you can make one yourself. Clearly the TPG still grade millions of NCLT, but I believe they do so with massive submissions from a few dealers at greatly reduced rates. Today, most slabbed and raw generally don't sell for much difference in the aftermarket. 

Agree with your excellent points.....I usually find myself bidding/buying on PR69's rather than paying another 50-200% for a 70.

Does your 70 vs. 69 analysis also apply to ASEs and Silver Commemoratives (i.e., National Park Saint-Gaudens stuff)....gold Eagles and Buffalos and other gold modern coins (including commemoratives) ?  Or are you mostly talking about Quarters and mass-collected stuff like that with much lower price points ?

On 8/26/2022 at 10:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Here’s the worst part. The thief most likely not ONLY had dealer credentials, but dealer-only pre-show credentials AND a photo ID badge. Hard card plus a yellow and a maroon ribbon. I make cards for EVERY person who hands me the receipt for having paid, whether on-site, or previously. There were two guys on cameras that Monday, me and the Host Committee Chairman of the show. I’ll bet ANYTHING either Steve or I shot this dude’s photo ID, and they ARE all digitally stored. Step one? Grab ALL the Monday photos and scan them for previously unknown folks. The entity to which they were affiliated is also stored. 

Sounds like if they snuck in as dealers it should be easy to catch or ID them.  I hope they had cameras there !

On 8/26/2022 at 10:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Here’s the worst part. The thief most likely not ONLY had dealer credentials, but dealer-only pre-show credentials AND a photo ID badge. Hard card plus a yellow and a maroon ribbon. I make cards for EVERY person who hands me the receipt for having paid, whether on-site, or previously. There were two guys on cameras that Monday, me and the Host Committee Chairman of the show. I’ll bet ANYTHING either Steve or I shot this dude’s photo ID, and they ARE all digitally stored. Step one? Grab ALL the Monday photos and scan them for previously unknown folks. The entity to which they were affiliated is also stored. 

They didn't sneak it out....according to Charmy, they literally took the entire case.  Sounds like some camera may have caught them.

These venues which are regularly used for conventions or get-togethers should have Hi-Def/4K videos running from multiple locations with zoom-ins.  Recorded in a control room.  Costs a fraction of what it did 20-30 years ago. Thousands of dollars an hour then; maybe $200 an hour today.

On 8/26/2022 at 11:22 PM, VKurtB said:

This is 100% false. PPI is a thoroughly professional security firm. They got beat this time. Simple as that. 

Beat by a distracted guard ?  By people blending in ?  Sorry, that is amateur hour.  This is EXACTLY what you pay a security firm to prevent.

Nobody is coming through the skylight on a rope like Tom Cruise in MISSION IMPOSSIBLE.  My friend works security for one of the Top 50 wealthiest people in the U.S.....their procedures are all geared to stop this stuff and consider it 1st Level entries.  They are prepared for 2 levels higher, much more sophisticated, like professional military and/or security folks.

On 8/26/2022 at 10:57 PM, zadok said:

that is a very small show by comparison, our local flea market has more vendors, some of the larger coin shows have 10 times that number n encompass acres of space...but as u say, its all in the pudding if u want better security some one has to pay for it...organization, vendor, dealers or attendees....

Then you adjust personnel numbers....FUN is 600 vendors or so.....you might need more personnel for a larger forum (I would say OCCC was 3x the size of the Field House we use)...but the principles are the same.

Point is, this theft wasn't even well-planned....it wasn't Ocean's 11 or even Ocean's 8 (good movie with a female cast ! )....they need to hire a PROFESSIONAL security company, the ones that safeguard billionaires and art shows.

On 8/26/2022 at 10:38 PM, zadok said:

...re the security arrangements...its much more complicated at a major convention site n comprised of many different vendors n subcontractors, significantly different than a local astronomy show where security is very basic n simple to arrange n secure...to implement all the various lock down n employee n contractor personnel registration n background checks would be cost prohibitive n the convention costs for dealers n attendees would exceed all revenues n void the convention...not to mention the unimaginable bottlenecks n long lines for everyone entering n leaving the complex, the convention would come to full-stop if it ever opened at all.... 

Our astronomy show has 100-120 vendors coming from across the country with hundreds of people going in-and-out....trucks, cars, vans.....helpers and dealers....people coming from Europe, California, and the Tri-State area.

Procedures are procedures.  Basic stuff applies to any show.  From what Charmy wrote, some of the "procedures" look like they were grabbed off the internet.

On 8/26/2022 at 9:43 PM, VKurtB said:

It is. But what is it telling? It’s telling me that coin shows are going to have to “up their game” regarding security, because the thieves are pros.

Yeah...and you can't hire a couple of kids and some ex-bus drivers looking to pick up some PT work as "security."

Let me tell you a story when me and a guy were working with the professional security team for my astronomy club (we are probably the largest amateur expo in the country with 100-120 vendors with stuff costing tens of thousands at most tables).  Obviously, selling stolen astronomy stuff (scopes/eye pieces/meteorites/etc.) is tougher than selling coins or jewels or Rolexes but you are still talking about thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars even.

We're at the entrance to the field house....things slow down....we are on both sides of a huge truck door entrance (12 feet high; 15 feet wide).  Nobody gets IN or OUT without a dealer badge and/or the highly visible security windbreakers.  We are to look at each other across the entrance....out towards the parking lot....and then inside towards the vendor floor.  No talking, no BSing, no nothing.  My eyes are on my partner....the parking lot....the vendor floor.  Wash, rinse, repeat....

Well, my partner takes out his smartphone...checks some text messages.....I was looking out at the parking lot....all of a sudden, the security professional is screaming at 200 decibels: "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?   WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?  WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?"  I nearly had a heart attack as the place was quiet aside from people milling about and forklifts moving (no cars or people through the entrance). 

He slightly lowered -- slightly -- and said you don't look anywhere other than at me, the parking lot, and the vendor floor.  You don't reach for your smartphone.  You don't read a text message.  You don't take a phone call.  If somebody collapses and suffers a heart attack or stroke on the floor or you get a call about that.....you CALL HIM (the security head).  It was a scene out of "Full Metal Jacket" with the Marine Drill Seargant ripping the new recruits.

This is what the coin shows need to hire....PROFESSIONAL security people, not folks looking to make some extra income wearing SECURITY jackets with no knowledge of procedures.  You have to pay up -- but it is worth it.  My club went cheap 20 years ago and paid some outfit like $500-$750 for half-a**** "security" and someone stole some stuff from a vendor.  Then we anted up for a few thousand dollars for 48 hours of perfection and nobody has lost anything since.

No reason to go cheap.  It's a small expense in the scheme of things.

Some comments and questions on Charmy's intro:

On 8/23/2022 at 12:39 AM, The Penny Lady said:

Most dealers felt that having Heritage and Stacks auction lot viewing off site was inconvenient, but that was because GreatCollections is now the official ANA auction company (for which they pay a hefty fee) so it was my understanding that the other auction companies were not allowed to have onsite auction lot viewing as they were no longer "paying" for this privilege.

So does this mean that HA and Stacks can't be anywhere in the convention center -- or just on the bourse/floor show ?  I remember at FUN 2020 (last show I attended) that I believe HA may have been the official sponsor and they held their 1927-D Saint and other auctions in a nice little room not far from the convention entrance doors.

On 8/23/2022 at 12:39 AM, The Penny Lady said:

As others have mentioned, the dealer day is an important part of a large show for dealers and will occur with or without the host show's participation. And as a collector, I can understand the frustration with feeling like all the "good stuff" may be gone before the show opens to the public. But as you all know, along with auctions and some other avenues, this is one of the major ways we dealers acquire inventory. It is also especially convenient and generally more secure to have the dealer tables on the bourse floor rather than in separate rooms or at off site hotel rooms. It's also a significant additional revenue for the ANA - when the PNG ran dealer day, they charged $500 per table rather than $250 fee the ANA charged. For me personally, it is also nice not to be rushed to set up and get organized, and much easier to be able to view other dealers' inventory without interfering with their retail business.

So in addition to having Dealer Time before the show opens on the 1st Day to the public....there are Dealer Days before the official start of the show -- is that correct ?

I'm curious....I've heard that 80% of many dealers business is these dealer-to-dealer transactions...it's where they get inventory....where they make money.....but....

How are they making money if they sell their stuff to other dealers (who presumably have to get it below the retail price to sell it themselves)....or....charge full retail price which is no bargain to the other dealer buyer ?  I guess this is why I never owned my own business.

On 8/23/2022 at 12:39 AM, The Penny Lady said:

One more thing I thought I'd address briefly what I know about the theft at the show that some of you may have heard about on dealer day where a case full of Rolex watches was stolen and the group of thieves (all caught on camera) just picked up the locked case, placed it upside down on a cart, and just walked off with it (the dealers had just taken a brief lunch break). They headed out some doors that were "guarded" by a convention worker but they distracted her and when her back was turned, the others pushed the cart out the door. It is believed they blended in with the other workers who were still on the floor moving/placing show cases at dealers' tables, etc. Believe me, we were all in shock over this brazen and well-orchestrated theft and I'm sure there will be changes made all around as a result of this. Even though this was a terrible event and very frustrating for all concerned, I know it is being handled by all the parties and authorities involved, I really would prefer not to have this show report derailed or focused on this incident.

This is amateur hour.  The place running the show CLEARLY doesn't have security people, they just have some young people or folks looking for some PT work who get a 2-week training in Security Procedures and get badges.  I can't believe that ANYBODY could be allowed to "blend in" when a show is being set up and people are coming-and-going. 

You need ALL entrances and exits locked....just one place for folks to come in-and-out.

No professional security guard gets "distracted" -- you're on the lookout for that.

Nobody "blends in" -- you have specially made highly-visible fluouresent orange or yellow windbreakers with the specific show's name blazened front and back.

Yes, I know these procedures -- I was an overnight guard for our club one year and worked alongside professionals who taught me alot in the few days of the show.

On 8/26/2022 at 9:07 PM, VKurtB said:

Security on the night in question seemed far more intent on making sure the exhibitors were ejected from the hall than doing ANYTHING about actual security. In truth, the opportunity for the crew emptying trash bins to engage in larcenous activities is pretty considerable. On floor overnight security is focused about not letting people GET IN, and precious little about who might already BE IN. That needs to change. “Release the hounds!”

The dealers need to hire 1 or 2 of their own key security people and not rely on the convention place.