GoldFinger1969

On 9/4/2022 at 11:20 AM, World Colonial said:

Which ones are actually rare, aside from printing errors?  Are any for actually prominent players especially from one of the teams with a hard core following?  Or someone hardly anyone remembers other than from the card?  I ask because presumably the best known card by far (Honus Wagner T-206) purportedly has 50-60 known though the highest graded is or seems to be an "8".  This number isn't even close to actually rare, but the distinction is that the card is the equivalent (for a baseball card) of any "famous" coin and probably better known.  I'm also assuming it was worth more than this 9.5 Mantle card back in 1991 ($50K) before everything became really inflated during the mania financial era.  

As with coins, you have to go UP in quality to separate price/value.  Stars from the 1950's and 1960's are popular:  Sandy Koufax, Ernie Banks, Roberto Clemente, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan.  For some reason, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron aren't -- maybe because they didn't have the number of die-hard followers once their teams moved from NYC and Milwaukee, respectively.  Ditto Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams cards -- not enough, not enough in mint condition, not enough cards covering most of their early/best years.  Those cards were never the "hot" cards at shows or in sales auctions even though the players were among the best ever.

When I was collecting and going to card shows, the Nolan Ryan Rookie card (with fellow Met Jerry Koosman) was the #2 card behind the Mickey Mantles from Tops and Bowman.  No doubt because of the twin records for K's and No-Hitters.

I think the Honus Wagner would be more sought-after in all grades IF more collectors knew who he was and/or had seen him play.  Wagner, Nap Lajoie, Christy Matthewson, Walter Johnson, even Babe Ruth -- nobody saw them play when cards got popular (well, very few if any)....AND....there weren't enough cards in sequence to make their cards attractive (i.e., Rookie card, 2nd Year Card, 3rd Year Card, etc.).  You had very few of their cards survive in Mint Condition and not from historic years (i.e. Babe Ruth in 1927 when he hit 60 HR).

I grew up reading about these players from 1900 - 1960 when I was a kid flipping and collecting cards in the 1970's.  I don't think the younger generation like my young cousins (b. 1976) did.  They knew who Ruth was, but if not for the T-206, they'd never know who Honus Wagner was...or Pie Traynor....Walter Johnson....Christy Matthewson.    You might as well talk about players from the 1880's when the rules for baseball weren't like today.  Even players from the 1930's (i.e., Dizzy Dean) and beyond -- no knowledge and not enough cards.  

On 9/4/2022 at 1:04 PM, Jnorales said:

Thank you everyone for the feedback. My father-in-law was an avid coin collector, and we are just now trying to determine value, if nay.

Single out silver and gold coins for starters.

I might want to spend speculative $$$ on a rare baseball card as opposed to Bitcoin or cryptos ! 

On 9/3/2022 at 6:47 PM, Sandon said:

Die breaks occur when coinage dies crack after becoming stressed from use, causing metal on the planchet (coin blank) to be pushed into the crack as the coin is struck, leaving a raised line.  Another possibility is "clash marks" that result from the coinage press operating without a planchet in the press, causing the dies to strike against each other and parts of the design from one die to be transferred (reversed and incuse) to the other.

Why would the press strike and create clash marks without the planchet inserted ?  You would think if there wasn't a blank that the process would stop, no ?

Applause for a great explanation of die breaks and clash marks, Sandon. 

On 9/2/2022 at 11:04 AM, World Colonial said:

From what I know, this card isn't actually rare, not even close.

It's the condition.  The MM 1952 sold was graded 9.5 out of 10.  There are supposedly three 10 cards out there that would command a premium but apparently the sellers have no interest in selling and are wealthy enough for that to not be considered a bluff or a selling strategy.

No more "hoards" either, as the 9.5 MM was found in an attic in Massachusetts in 1985.    A real fluke.

On 9/1/2022 at 6:49 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

....or all the best doctors in America not in Big Pharma's pocket, were disappeared per plan, I ain't buyin' it!   

Smart move.  I think if all the "best doctors" were in Big Pharma's pocket, their stock prices wouldn't be flat over 2 decades.

Also "Small Pharma" hasn't done much to create life-saving drugs and other wonder drugs so God Bless Big Pharma. 

On 9/2/2022 at 5:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Herewith, an authorized sneak peek of the Threadmaster's obsessive compulsion, at the height of his acquisition craze:

In the immortal words of sportswriter Oscar Madison...."What are these, plans for Apollo 15 ??" 

Nice going, and thanks for spending time contributing to these forums !!  

On 9/1/2022 at 11:27 AM, World Colonial said:

I understand your point but the first (not only) reason for the outcome you described is that buying supposed collectibles in bulk has nothing to do with collecting, whether for coins or something else. That's the same principle with this fractional ownership.  It's not actual collecting because it serves no recreational purpose.  It also has no economic usefulness which is why it's just another form of speculation and not investment.  In different threads here and on the PCGS forum, I have also provided my explanation for the current US collecting culture since it makes a lot more sense than the consensus perception.  It's very unpopular because it's contrary to the preferences of practically anyone with a "meaningful" financial commitment in their collection.

No argument, WC....but that 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle -- and I am fully willing to say it is an outlier -- went from $50,000 in 1991 to $12.6 MM today.

That's 20% a year for 31 years !! 

Now, let's see what happens to all those NBA and MLB collectibles, cards, NFTs, etc. that went from a few hundred or few thousand dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars practically overnight.

I think the speculative element in cards and collectibles can sustain price rises for authentically rare cards like the 1952 Mickey Mantle and some others, but NOT for hundreds or thousands of various cards.

On 9/1/2022 at 4:00 PM, wadiihindu said:

Proponents of conspiracy theories think that cryptocurrency is bad, but I think that cryptocurrency really gives people the opportunity to earn money. Investments are always a risk, so before you invest your money anywhere, it is important to learn everything about the project.

Warren Buffet thinks cryptos are bad and he's not a conspiracy theorist.

It's about intrinsic value and whether these things can deliver what they promise.

On 9/1/2022 at 8:34 AM, World Colonial said:

The subject covered by the title of this thread is a complete farce, but apparently that escapes some people.  Not the OP for starting it, but that this concept even exists and is considered viable.  It's utterly absurd but due to recent experience is considered "normal".  

I just find it interesting that all the bball cards bought in bulk -- the moderns -- from about 1988-1994 are STILL underwater as I understand it.  I remember my young cousins stockpiling them in their closets.

The rare stuff has made a spectacular comeback.  The stuff made during the bubble has not.

Might be a good lesson there for coins. 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:49 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Reader Beware Although a few good posts occur in this thread, the vast majority of it is repetitive back and forth tripe. (4 pages of it; torturous, unending)

I think that is true of LOTS of threads here that many of us don't read.  This thread is no different.

OTOH, it does analyze the intersection of low-interest money, hobbies vs. investments, NFTs and baseball cards vs. coins, and other variables that affect our little niche.

On 8/29/2022 at 10:31 PM, EagleRJO said:

I am in no rush and will see where things go from here. In the meantime, I already have the 2021 and 2022 1-oz gold coins from the US Mint ordered when spot prices were pretty low.  I think they actually did an amazing job of reproducing the Saint obverse and improved the strike quality. I have posted the attached pics in another thread, but they just don't do these coins justice like having them in your hand to look at.

Beautiful coins, enjoy.

There's something to be said for the moderns, but the reverse of a Saint-Gaudens with the eagles' wings double-imposed with a side view is breathtaking to me.

On 8/29/2022 at 8:39 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@GoldFinger1969: Again, with the OP's indulgence...Fine, now how do I explain that to a French-speaking woman with the mind of a child. As it stands, my wife is going to insist she should be able to feed them into a Laundry machine and the Chinese owner who understands very little English will insist otherwise. [Unless, of course, he decides to volunteer to exchange each gold Rooster for four (4) quarters. Hmm.]  

I just noticed that the 20 FR Rooster is about the same size as the quarters that we need to put into the slot on Pac-Man, Space Invaders, Defender, and all the cool games I grew up with !! 

Either that, or use that plastic protective device that was on many household products like Pledge, waxes, cleaners, etc.  It was the same size as a quarter and if you slipped it up the change slot it would trigger a credit for a free game. 

Unfortunately, the pinball operators wised up and put some gizmo on the slot so after a few months they wouldn't work. 

On 8/29/2022 at 6:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

I have been looking at MS60 to MS62 like the one above, but they have been going for over $2k (with a BP) or about 15% over spot, even with a damaged holder. I am keeping my eyes open and just being patient for prices to come back down from the unusual price spike earlier this year.

Or....wait for gold to move UP and maybe the price boosts here lag.  Good Luck !!

P.S.  I don't think the asking prices are outrageous but I agree wth your being patient.  Coins -- like stocks -- are always there (unless you are chasing a unique coin).... so you can always buy....so patience is worthwhile. 

On 7/29/2022 at 6:26 PM, EagleRJO said:

Are the first year 1907 Saints with no moto and the roman numerals on the edge worth a good premium of a little over $500 on top of a typ early 1900's Saint? And yes, the small numerals on the edge, as I think there is only one know version with the large numerals on the edge.

Eagle, this question of yours never got directly answered.  I'm just going by the price matrix in Roger's book, not recent auctions.....but I am seeing the 1907 getting scarce in MS65 & above.  If you stick to MS63-64, it should trade at a 20-25% premium to lower-rated or bullion coins that track gold.

Go lower in grade and you can probably pick it up for a 10% premium to spot I would think.

On 8/29/2022 at 5:49 PM, RWB said:

I've outlines a short segment in FMTM-2 to discuss these early samples.]

When is/was the 2nd Edition of FMTM put out ?

deleted

On 8/29/2022 at 12:39 PM, The Penny Lady said:

Thank you so much for understanding!

Since you want to steer this back to the OP (a valid request)....let me ask you if you are seeing more beginners/newcomers who got into coins during Covid at these big national shows like ANA ?  What about at more local shows you might attend in Southern California ?

I'm sure you talk to other dealers...are they finding out that the Covid boom has some staying power as folks stick with it as things return to normal ?  Initially, everybody said 2020 and 2021 was GREAT for business -- probably the only ones besides stay-at-home stocks/businesses that benefitted from the shutdown of 2020.

Interested in any feedback you can provide, Charmy. 

On 8/29/2022 at 2:02 PM, World Colonial said:

That's mostly because of what you buy and the inflated price level.  The risks you describe were mostly much lower or not a consideration at all, depending upon what the bidder was trying to buy.

Exactly....if I was a teenager buying inexpensive Whitman-type coins, no great risk.  I buy commemoratives, Saints, other gold coins, Morgans, and other silver coins.  Greater risk of being burned for me without TPG certification.

December 8th, 1948 ?  So the SanFran football team should be called The 48'ers ? 

On 8/29/2022 at 9:55 AM, RWB said:

But....near-frostbite is part of the fun of astronomy !

You don't want to handle an $800 eyepiece with thick gloves !! 

On 8/29/2022 at 9:48 AM, zadok said:

...im not sure that market or venue can continue to climb, would scare me to be that heavily invested in a baseball card, n it probably doesnt still have the bubblegum....

Yet that card produced a 20% compound annual return the last 31 years.  Wow.....

Let's see if this sale drags up the price of my Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan cards. 

On 8/27/2022 at 9:56 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

but the Roosters...?  @Woods020 @RWB @VKurtB: What say you all? A TPGS recently informed me my Best French Set, is again Best French Set, but I have no clue as to what to do. I had a dream. I walk into Stack's pushing a walker. The guy in front catching a glimpse of what I have reaches for the phone to the guys in the back, and says soto voce: "Guess what? September's rent just walked in." Then I wake up in a cold sweat. It was all a dream. It was just a dream. Whew!

I think you make it known you want a trusted friend who will either spend the time OR already knows gold coins/Roosters so that your loved ones/estate see a fair liquidation/sale of your more illiquid assets.

Providing specific instructions on how to dispose of a collection -- in pieces or whole -- would also help.  An estimate for bullion value and also a range for market value can't hurt, either.

On 8/29/2022 at 4:38 AM, CoinJockey73 said:

This thread is great! 

All credit to the great QA !!  

On 8/29/2022 at 6:11 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Congrats GF, she's a beaut! 

Thanks Mike, I'm poking around the internet finding out more about these beautiful coins.  For instance, I just read WHY the coins have roosters....dates back to their Gallic past.