GoldFinger1969

On 9/11/2022 at 7:16 PM, MatthewDM11 said:

It makes about $1000 difference in market value. 

What's the change from ?

On 10/10/2022 at 2:33 PM, MarkFeld said:

It looks just slightly different from a genuine example.

It looks like a copy....of a copy....of a copy. 

Maybe the pics are just lousy, but it doesn't even look like gold...looks like brass.

On 10/10/2022 at 1:10 AM, Melior Invenidiste said:

No idea

Look on the sides of the coin and report back. 

On 10/10/2022 at 1:03 AM, Sandon said:

   This is a rather crude imitation that was probably cast rather than struck.  Compare it with the photos of a genuine specimen on the NGC Coin Explorer at 1927 S $20 MS | Coin Explorer | NGC (ngccoin.com) or those on PCGS Coinfacts at 1927-S $20 (Regular Strike) St. Gaudens $20 - PCGS CoinFacts (right click either link for menu to open).  Just about everything is wrong (surface texture, color, weakness of details, size and style of letters, numbers and mint mark). It's probably not even gold.  The correct weight would be 33.436 grams.     The edge of a St. Gaudens double eagle should have the words "E PLURIBUS UNUM" with the words separated by stars.  What's on the edge of this one?

Agreed 100%.....

The pictures aren't that great, but it looks like a plaster cast not a struck coin.  And an AU circulated 1927-S is worth anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000.

FWIW, another MCMVII HR MS-64 is not getting any bids at the $30,000 asking price.

On 10/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, VKurtB said:

I fear our buddy Coel is heading down a verrrrry bad track. Over 90% of people who get into coins as an investment  lose money, LOTS AND LOTS of money. 

Because they tend to learn about the HOBBY during the boom and good times or when people are making lots of $$$.  NOBODY sees news articles or TV spots when the hobby is dead and nobody is making any $$$.

On 10/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, VKurtB said:

I fear our buddy Coel is heading down a verrrrry bad track. Over 90% of people who get into coins as an investment  lose money, LOTS AND LOTS of money. A dear friend ended up dangling from the end of a rope over the bursting of the late 1980’s bubble. His note said he had let his wife and family down. The higher you fly…

Very sad....people blow $$$ on stuff they don't understand.  As a money manager and investment analyst, I see it all the time (thankfully, less nowadays than decades ago).

On 10/8/2022 at 7:37 PM, zadok said:

...u r reinforcing my position...what u buy n when u buy, the big operative words here...if i only made a 10% annualized return id quit buying, id view that as a failure...easy example, just look at the prices eric p. newman paid for his coins, most of his original 2x2s had his price on them...annualize those n see what u realize...n he wasnt even trying to make money off his coins...i at least take it into consideration....

It seems you buy after doing lots of due dilligence with the GOAL of making $$$.  I think most here buy coins based on what they LIKE and LOVE and NOT $$$.  And as I said, Zad, quite frankly you're a very experienced and knowledgeable collector/buyer....most people aren't that savvy.

Also, if you are like me, I want to only buy certain coins that I like (i.e., Saints).  So even if you tell me I can buy a couple of EAC's or 1940's coinage that is almost CERTAIN to triple in 5-7 years, I'm really not interested in making $$$.  I'd rather put that couple of thousand bucks into Saints I enjoy looking at.

JMHO.

Beautiful MCMVII High Relief:   MS-66....Flat Edge....and CAC.  2 weeks to go...wonder if it can get to $75,000 from current $55K.

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1244481/1907-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-MCMVII-High-Relief-Flat-Edge-PCGS-MS-66-CAC

On 10/7/2022 at 7:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I seldom review auction offerings, but this one by GreatCollections Coin & Currency caught my eye:  1907 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle, MCMVII, High Relief, Wire Edge, PCGS-64, and 1950 Franklin Half Dollar,, NGC-PF-68. So what's the attraction? Simply that the Current Bids for both, frozen at a moment in time--right now, are identical:  $17,055, with 51 Bids recorded for the former, and 25 Bids for the latter.

Well, the MCMVII has now pulled ahead by $20,500 to $17,055.  

Obviously, being a Saint fan, I would bid on the MCMVII if I had the $$$.  But if I was given the money to buy EITHER and assuming they finished at the same price a bit higher like when locked at the $17K level....and I was indifferent between the two except as to future value.....I would think the Saint would have less downside risk. 

The High Relief probably has more deep-pocket buyers and has been tested over a longer period of time.  At a minimum, it's got the value of 1 ounce of gold which admittedly is probably only about 10% or so of the value of the coin.  But the numismatic premium on the Franklin is huge, with the face and metal value less than 0.1% of the market cost of the coin.

My understanding was that Franklin Half Dollars had really taken it on the chin from about 2013-2020, along with most U.S.-centered coins, as sellers from decades ago simply swamped the lack of new collectors .  Not familiar with the series, just a couple of threads here and at CU, so I'll let an expert chime in.

On 10/7/2022 at 8:59 PM, zadok said:

...it all depends on what u buy n when u buy...correctly purchased coins have outperformed all stocks n bonds over the past 30 years by multiples...regardless of dividends n interests....

That is the rarity and exception....very few are as smart and savvy as you, Zad ....by any stretch, a hobby does not usually provide competitive investment options.

Maybe a niche sector -- like toned Franklin Halfs -- because of the recent spike will find the annualized return competitive.  And our older posters here who were active in the 1950's and 1960's certainly have many coins that went up 50 and 100-fold (or more !) that helped out their financial returns. 

But for most people starting out in the 1970's or later -- ESPECIALLY after the 1973-80 metals bubble and the 1988-90 coin bubble -- it's miraculous if someone was even in the ballpark with stocks, bonds, or other financial assets.  If the trophy coins I cited above can't hit 10% a year, what can ?  I guess if someone is prescient and can tell the future they can realize that buying some penny or nickel or commemorative for a few bucks will be worth $300 in 10 or 20 years, I guess.  But most people can't predict the future.

Ancients & Foreign coins are hot right now....do we KNOW with certaintly they'll be hot in 2 or 5 years ?  Are U.S. coins turning the corner or is it just a blip ?  Even the experts can't say for sure.

On 10/7/2022 at 8:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

It just takes 2 people who really like one and they don't know when they might see another similar one, and you can easily see the price going through the roof. Add to that higher grading than in the past for those, an older holder and a sticker and I don't even bother reading the listing. 😉

Yes, toning is unique...no 2 alike....you can find pretty clean MS-67's or MS-68's or Proofs that are clean.  Tough to replicate "monster toning." 

On 10/7/2022 at 5:56 PM, successwithcoel said:

This is an incredible coin! It's mindblowing how unaware people are of the opportunity to hold valuable tangible assets long term.  The more.the word spreads more people will see a prosperous future 

Please be careful....collect because you LIKE IT and can AFFORD what you put into it.

DO NOT consider your coins "investments" or even tangible assets that will appreciate or even hold their value.  They may...they may not.  They don't pay interest or dividends and they have with very few time periods turned out to be mediocre to poor "investments" over the long haul.  We have a few threads talking about that here.

Even trophy coins like the 1933 Double Eagle and the 1908-S Saint-Gaudens MS-68 return mid-single digit returns over most holding periods.  Probably the same for other bullion and non-bullion coins.

On 10/7/2022 at 10:56 AM, VKurtB said:

Oddly, when I do an internet search, I get references to a clown. Is that ironic or what?

Only clowns I know are Bozo The Clown, Krusty The Clown, and Eric The Clown (from Seinfeld). 

On 10/7/2022 at 6:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

The coins were toned Franklins where they were discussing resubmitting some themselves in the past and getting essentially the same grade. They previously sold the coins and then saw them with a higher grade and being sold for a lot more money. Keep in mind that thread was from a while ago when toned coins were starting to be graded higher by the TPGs (previously viewed as an undesirable appearance that knocked it down in grade) and also becoming wildly popular, and not just for Franklins or nickels.

I can't recall if I made it to the complete end of the thread -- it was very long -- because that would be a legitimate explanation.  It sure wasn't coming in clear through the first few pages, that I distinctly remember.

On 10/7/2022 at 6:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

Sacks Bowers has a webpage from a while ago about a rainbow toned MS-68 1880-S Morgan valued at $5,000 that sold at auction for $23,000 with no change in grade.

Wow, that's unreal.  Wonder how the price guides will treat toned and non-toned coins. 

My favorite coin(s) are the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles, as you will probably learn from all the threads I've contributed to on those coins.   

I like both the obverse and reverse...fascinated by their history in international trade....the stories behind the hoards....how so many (or so few) came to survive to this day....the mysteries involving the bag of 1928 Saints or the entire stash of 1933's (excepting the one our fellow poster EC has ! ).

Needless to say, I've bough most books on Saints/Double Eagles including RBWs book (which led to a very active thread here) and scoured the web for other articles, posts, stories, etc.

Just wish I had more time -- and money ! -- to spend on them. 

Can a Mod or someone at NGC move this thread to the right section ? 

On 10/7/2022 at 12:22 PM, EagleRJO said:

I did find the Franklin Gradeflation thread and it was about toned coins, including the follow up posts and the ones that upgraded, which is what I recalled. So those crazy numbers make sense since they were toned Franklins which people were going crazy over.

But if they EACH had toned coins and they were submitted and re-submitted within a short period of time, then upgrades shouldn't have occured.  Or these vets would have realized that toning was the key and gotten that response right away.  I have to find the thread again and go over the first few pages...but I don't recall that was the case.  Maybe you can confirm.

It wasn't like the OP said he submitted the coins a few times in the late-1990's and 20 years later he found the coins 2 grades higher.  I think we are talking about a few months or a year or so -- but I'll double-check.

On 10/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

Yea, I'm pretty sure those were toned coins in older holders where the desirability of those along with grading standards have changed over time. In general, you can get a grade bump resubmitting an older holder (not just resubmitting in the same period hoping for a different outcome). I don't think that relates to the effect of any CAC sticker or crossovers.

I'll check later and report back, I don't recall if they involved toned coins.  But I am sure they weren't toned for the ones who got the upgrade and not for the ones who was posting on the threads.

On 10/6/2022 at 2:23 PM, VKurtB said:

Likely NOT due to gradeflation, and more likely the result of naked corruption. 

Can't say definitively you are wrong....but there's no proof to that conclusion. 

And you ALWAYS say something needs to be backed up, right ?

On 10/6/2022 at 7:16 AM, JT2 said:

sounds to me like you didn't apply yourself and go the distance. Or did y ou just run out of gas trying to make the circuit around the 1000 tables!!!   hahahahah  i usually come home from FUN needing to work overtime for the next month!    hahahahhah 

It was years of savings and pent-up demand.  I think I had started looking at 1923-D's in 2015...so I waited about 5 years to pull the trigger. 

I think with my few remaining $$$ I was scraping the bottom of the barrel and bought a Walt Disney World Mickey Mouse certificate from 1971 when it first opened.   I stayed through the end (mistake) and by Sunday lots of dealers had packed up.

On 10/5/2022 at 11:03 AM, JT2 said:

i have been know to spend upwards of 4K for a real nice cent and 8K for a very nice nickel; these were actually more expensive then most of my halves and dollars.

Graded...or did you have faith in your ability to spend that money above face value with your grading skills ?

On 10/6/2022 at 2:01 AM, EagleRJO said:

I recall something about those coins. But that was a while ago and I thought it related more to a different view on toned coins combined with diff standards, plus newer ppl over-grading some of those, and not about crossovers or CAC.

Basically....some savvy Franklin collectors had nice coins in PCGS holders....they resubmitted them hoping for a higher or even "+" grade....got nothing for their efforts....sold the coins for a few hundred bucks...later on, they see their same coin in a new holder with 1-2 grades higher, sometimes with CAC, coins now worth 10-20x what they sold it for a a few years earlier or less.

On 10/5/2022 at 10:52 PM, EagleRJO said:

Sounds like a very limited group, maybe a few higher grade less common gold coins, that doesn't really apply to a general discussion and may have more to do with the age of the orig holder.

No, that was for Franklin Half-Dollars.  It was an infamous Franklin Gradeflation Thread that apparently had many victims, maybe some here. 

"I have seen that happen too with some CC Morgans and a few older half dollar coins, typically an OGH with a CAC, mostly at the spike earlier this year. Collectors seemed to go ga-ga over them even if they paid more of a premium than a grade bump would give you, so I avoid those like the plague.  I think it may be more to do with the older holders and change in grading standards, and it may be happening less often now with ppl pulling back on what thay are spending.

The OGH might indicate that a coin by itself was conservatively graded decades ago and might deserve a grade bump, with or without a CAC.  But OGH and confirmation by an experienced grader, with or without CAC, I could see the price jumping to the next grade level for some coins.  Don't doubt it hasn't happened.

I just haven't seen it for the Saints I track closely.  But most are recent holders, not OGH.  OGH + CAC (I don't think you'd see OGH and a "+") might be enough to get you a 1 grade bump.  But if that was the case, wouldn't the Gold Bean be there to indicate too LOW for the grade instead of just SOLID for the grade (as a Green Bean indicates) ?