GoldFinger1969

Who or what is the "CrazyHounddog" collection ?

On 10/19/2022 at 11:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

Not sure what an MS 5 Rubles coin has to do with the worn 10 Rubles coin the op is asking about,

I missed the ruble difference. 

On 9/27/2022 at 12:00 AM, EagleRJO said:

PCGS and NGC took completely different approaches to the massive price spikes earlier this year, with PCGS ending up with egg on their face (no matter what they do at this point) and NGC coming out looking a lot more reasonable not going with a lightning-fast knee-jerk reaction to that spike. Savvy dealers realize the current market conditions and are being flexible on prices or auction reserves, and even going with break-even to clear their inventory quickly which becomes even more important with market conditions falling. Less savvy dealers who hold out hope to get top of the spike PCGS values (plus a markup sometimes) will just end up with stale overpriced coins which just sit as prices continue to drop and their inventory continues to lose value.  Sellers stuck in the past with stale overpriced inventory are becoming easy to spot using NGC values and when the listing was posted as a guide, and I just immediately move on or just switch to bidding the coin on Great Collections if there is a reasonable reserve.

Has this been confirmed by others you've talked to ?  Dealers confirming it ?

I guess the difference is that when the price of gold fell and bullion and numismatic coin prices needed to be adjusted downward....those with NGC coins lowered while those with PCGS coins did not....is that correct ?

On 7/10/2022 at 11:11 PM, Cat Bath said:

Simpson had the best overall set I've ever seen. Unfortunately, many of his TrueViews have been taken down. A great loss and something that makes me very angry with PCGS.

Why would they do that ?  I believe lots of TrueViews were taken down from many collectors, many non-famous.

What gives ?

On 10/19/2022 at 7:02 PM, RWB said:

There are version with a fin rim and with a flat  (normal) rim --- no US coins were ever made with a "wire rim" or "wire edge."

I guess people understand "wire" not "fin" in relation to "flat."

On 10/19/2022 at 7:07 PM, RWB said:

I feel the key question is whether the bubble gum is still good.

I'm not sure they include it anymore...ruins the glossy pics. 

I think mine is about 0.2 oz of gold.  Gold was about $1,600 when I got it at FUN and I believe I paid $500 or so.  

Gold getting hit as the 2-year Treasury and 10-year Treasury soar.  Tough to hold precious metals when you can get 4.5% in a risk-free asset for 2 years.

Here's my MS-65 coin from 1902:

It's a bit OT, but since we are talking about investments in gold/Saints and alternatives, here's what has happened to baseball cards:

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/news/sports-card-market-values-national-sports-collectors-convention

On 10/17/2022 at 6:05 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

How so?  There are trophy buildings, like New York's Plaza Hotel (now gone condo) and trophy coins, like the '33.  They transcend the hobby and garden-variety collectibles, no?  I see them as long-term investments, separate and apart from collectibles subject to the whims of the marketplace. The only way trophies falter is if they stagnate----no downside---- and fail to deliver any "return" on investment.  

(1)  You are dealing with a HIGHLY illiquid investment when talking coins.  People are more likely to splurge on art.

(2)  Returns, as we have documented on these threads multiple times, RARELY exceed mid-to-high single digits, which is nothing compared to the total returns from real estate (plus the tax benefits).

On 10/17/2022 at 8:19 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Don’t I know it! All in spent about $1,300 pgcs values state about 2,400

believe it or not the hardest one to obtain was the 2020 set, with the “w” proof nickel

Congrats...you bought these because you like 'em, right ?  Not for appreciation or gifting ?

On 10/17/2022 at 7:37 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

In reading about “outgassing” no offense VkurtB, but I did find this article on line at a collectors site. Maybe there is merit to what Coinbuf has said. So how , would you suggest I Store them humidity free?

From the Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver's Judy Greenfield, Conservator of Objects - "Building a Better Case":

"True African mahogany is reported to be one of the least corrosive woods, but it's expensive and difficult to procure, and other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield). Additionally, mahogany is resistant to termite attack. There is disagreement over the benefits of seasoned wood. Kiln-drying (seasoning) wood helps break down and drive off some inherent acids, though it may depress the wood's RH-buffering ability (Miles). But Werner cites the Department of Industry's statement that "[seasoning] wood...accelerates the production of free acetic acid and formic acid. Most of the acid, however, remains in the wood." 

So, even if you are lucky and your cabinet is actually made out of true African Mahogany it is still only a lesser evil. While Mahogany is much more stable than red oak, particularly dimensionally which I imagine would play a role in cabinet making, none of this this alters the fact that wood is factually not the best choice of material in which to store coins. I continue to quote from Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver, and this information is specifically in regard to display/storage cases - not so terribly removed from coin storage. And remember, display cases in museums are often temporary and yet these matters are considered. Many of the displayed items cited in the article were metal

"Although some woods are worse than others, all emit a variety of acids, aldehydes and other lignocellulosic degradation products." (Miles). Wood emits mostly acetic acid; formic acid is produced at 1/10th the amount of acetic acid(Blackshaw). Moisture hydrolyzes acetyl groups in the hemicellulose (a form of cellulose, the "building block" of wood) to produce acetic acid. Elevated temperatures appear to foster acetic acid production (Werner)." I don't know what to make of the claims about sanded mahogany - it is also agreed among conservators that all woods must have a barrier between the wood and the display case interior. "No wood can ever be completely sealed to stop emission of organic compounds, though sealants can impede emission." At least one case I saw made by Mr. Nichols appears to have the coins "exposed" to the inside finish, which IMHO should not be inside the case at all. You don't need physical contact for outgassing problems, and we know PCGS slabs are not "sealed" and plastic is gas permeable anyway. Also, the PCGS boxes are "cherry wood finish and are lined with black felt" - I don't have any idea what wood is used, what adhesives, what finish (oil /Varathane?) or what fabric. To me, once closed, the environment in a wood box is concentrated - and the wood just sits there outgassing with the adhesives and finish, waiting to absorb large qualtities of water...now if the box is in a safe.....

Someone mentioned Varathane - "Even after 18 months' drying time, oleoresinous (oil) paints corroded lead in an experiment cited by Miles. As oil products dry, they undergo oxidative degradation which yields volatile organic acids, aldehydes and carbon dioxide (Miles). Oleo-resinous products include oil-modified paints and varnishes, one-component polyurethane varnishes (e.g., Varathane), alkyd paints, epoxy ester paints, aluminum paints, silicone paints and most varnishes (Miles)."

The information just goes on and on...and on - ESPECIALLY about the harmful glues and adhesives that might be used in construction (perhaps more important than the wood and as important as the finish), the fabrics - fabric should not be used where humidity is not controlled (someone mentioned a tarnish retardant cloth - these can be bad - as can certain dyed felts etc.!)...all can be injurious, and usually are unless care is taken. All I am saying is that wood in not an ideal choice, or even second choice for long term coin storage. Yes, this data is about storage/display cases in museums, but most of the problems above seem are mainly influenced by humidity and temperature - variables found in every deposit box and safe. And those are concentrated environments, more than the cases in the above discussion.

(1)  For a sealed coin, how much "gas" can enter the coin holder compared to nearby furniture that might be near one's coin collection ?  I think we are talking such minute amounts that it is microscopic and can't really harm (sealed) coins.

(2)  Maybe this is for raw, unsealed coins/stamps/papers where something can react to "gas" much easier than a metal ?

On 10/17/2022 at 12:24 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It just seems every time I turn around, there is yet another auction, and yet another top price realized at auction.  I was curious to know whether Asian money has been parked to any noticeable extent in collectibles, generally, and Saints, specifically. It was noted many years ago that 50% or more of commercial real estate in New York City is owned/managed by Asians.

Some of our veteran collectors here might know otherwise, but I am unaware of foreigners showing ANY interest in ANY U.S. coins, including Saints.  Now, they might be buying GOLD and maybe a few people here and there bought U.S. bars, modern bullion coins, or some pre-1933 U.S. gold.  But I see no major trend, no.

Real estate -- residential or commercial -- is for income and appreciation which is much different than spending big $$$ on a hobby.

On 10/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Does any of that figure in the stampeding prices?  

QA, what prices are you referring to as "stampeding" ? 

I can tell you the bubble in SPACs, NFTs, crypto, and other "new" assets has been wiped out.  Prices down 50-75%.

On 10/16/2022 at 12:09 PM, centinel said:

What is a problem is the slab is older and I would one day like to upgrade to an edge view holder, but doing so would lose the CAC sticker.

I think there's a way around that as explained by Mark and Coinbuf.

On 10/15/2022 at 4:16 PM, gmarguli said:

What exactly is the value of the bean? Long before there was CAC, nicer for the grade coins traded at a premium. 

Pre-CAC, if there were 10 coins of the same grade in an auction, they'd sell for $800 (dogs), $1000 (average), and $1400 (high end). Post-CAC, if there were 10 coins of the same grade in an auction, they'd sell for $800 (dogs), $1000 (average), and $1400 (high end, but has a CAC sticker).  Fools jump up and down to say this is proof that CAC coins bring a premium.  Beans may help people who can't grade or aren't onsite to sort the nicer coins from the average, but whether or not the bean creates a premium is debatable.

There are plenty of studies which confirm that the Green stickers DO create a premium price (rightly or wrongly).  And while viewing coins with a sharp eye pre-CAC might have resulted in the 3 price ranges you cited, it's debatable if the high-end premium was as high as you state.  The price range might have been $800, $1,000 and $1,200. 

On 10/15/2022 at 4:16 PM, gmarguli said:

Nope, that's just something old fogies like to say. Just like in the 1950's you had to walk to school uphill in both directions....

I don't think anybody doubts that there are more ways to occupy oneself as a teenager today than 30 or 50 or 70 years ago.  It's self-evident. 

On 10/15/2022 at 3:42 PM, MarkFeld said:

No, I wouldn’t agree that it will be a “niche, focused high-end servicer..”.
I think they anticipate grading lower grade, as well as lower value coins, not just “high-end” and high value examples.

But I think JA acknowledged finding quality graders right off the bat will be difficult, no ?

Speaking of beans....anybody here seen any Saints with a Gold Bean ?

On 10/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Your point is well-taken. Bullion. And, for lack of a better word, lack of low-ball mint-states.  There was a tremendous influx of Asian money in real estate and high-end collectibles in recent decades.  Does any of that figure in the stampeding prices?  Anyone?

Haven't seen ANYTHING mentioned -- and I scan all over -- about foreign $$$ moving up U.S. coin prices.  Just a lagged reaction to the bubble with baseball cards, crypto, and NFT crappola (apoligies to one A. Bunker  ).

It is also the lower-priced stuff that has made the biggest move, stuff costing under $500.  Then the high-end where the super-rich play.  The broad middle has moved up but nothing extravagant.

On 10/15/2022 at 2:59 PM, MarkFeld said:

The so-called “biggest challenge” you mentioned probably won’t be much of a challenge, at all. Almost everyone who actually knows John, likes him as much as or more than his “worshipers” from afar. I say that as someone who has known him for more than 40 years, as a former employee, a friend and someone who has seen him interact with dozens of collectors and dealers. 

Mark, it appears that the new grading service is going to be a niche, focused, high-end servicer of U.S. coins.  Would you agree ?

Granted, they can always grow to include lower-priced, modern, and foreign coins....but that seems years away.

On 10/15/2022 at 12:13 PM, zadok said:

...u dont see many collectors putting together a set of st gaudens in ms61....

Hey, Zad, you blew my surprise announcement !! 

On 10/15/2022 at 10:56 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not wish to interrupt the momentum of your thread chugging along now for over 2-1/2 years, but at what point, off the top of your head, did S-G double eagles become largely the province of investors as opposed to collectors who've largely been priced out?

Excellent question, if you read the BOB SIMPSON thread over at CAC Forums you'd see who us peons are up against.  Not that they aren't fine people -- like our own EC (who also posts over at CF) -- they just play in another stratosphere.

Investors vs. Collectors....for high-end pieces, sure.  When you are dealing with super-wealthy people and billionaires who are -- or could be -- completely price-insensitive, there is nothing you can do about it.  Coins that cost 4 and 5-figures 30-40 years ago today cost high-6 figures and even 7-figures....with the high-end going for 8-figures pretty soon (to join the 1933 DE).

And the demand for some of the super-rare coins or patterns can be higher than that for the 1933 DE (though the prices haven't eclipsed it yet).

If Simpson had decided he wanted the 1933 DE, imagine what it would have cost him -- or EC.  

At least we can still play in our little sandbox of bullion to low-60's MCMVII HR's or about $2,000 to $20,000 or so.

I'll do what I did with that freezing pool my mom used to send me for lousy swimming lessons....I'll stick to the very shallow portion of the pool/coin prices, thank you very much. 

Liberty Pattern Judd-1776:  This pattern/coin is apparently called J-1776 but also J-1905, I'm not sure why.  Anybody know ?

I believe this coin is in the hands of either Bob Simpson or the anonymous CT collector who has 3 UHRs.  The book says East Coast collecot/CT collector....but maybe it was sold since to Simpson.

On 10/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, Sandon said:

   Somehow many people enjoyed coin collecting long before grading services existed.  Indeed, I would submit that it was more enjoyable and more of a true "hobby" before one worried whether a grading service coin would grade a coin 65, 65+, or 66, which service had graded a coin and when, and whether some other company had placed a sticker on the holder.  I certainly enjoyed it in the 1970s when I began collecting, and the 1985 ANA convention which I attended was a great success and memorable to me as the last one without "slabs". (ANACS certificates, their precursors, were, however, abundant.)  Authenticity was more of a concern than the exact grade of a coin, and I thought that third party certification would be of value only for high value coins that are frequently counterfeit or altered.  I couldn't have imagined that millions of modern collector issues would be ripped from their mint packaging and sent to grading services for mass marketing to "collectors" who have little or no interest in really learning anything about coins but think that one graded "70" is really better than one graded "69"!

It's the nature of society.  People used to gather around a radio -- nobody is doing that today.  Demands on people's time are much greater today than 25 years ago, let alone in the 1970's or 1950's.  Kids aren't reading coin books or spending time at the LCS....they're on the Internet with an iPhone. 

I agree a rudimentary appreciation for grading and other skills is nice.  But others just want to collect and farm out the DIY approach.

On 10/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, Sandon said:

Regarding the proposed new "CAC" grading service, I understand that CAC, unlike the current grading services, buys and sells coins it has stickered.  Will the new grading service buy and sell coins it has graded?  Wouldn't such activity constitute a conflict of interest and make the new service more of a dealer than a third-party grading service?

I don't believe they will be making a market in their own coins, like they did with CAC stickers.  More details will come out...and things are fluid...so what they say now could change in 6-9 months.