GoldFinger1969

On 11/10/2022 at 12:17 PM, Sandon said:

  Is there any contemporary written record of how the U.S. Mint created each of the non-traditional finishes of the proof coins of the 1907-21 era?

Roger covers it in his American Renaissance series.

Recent article in CoinWeek which I thought was very interesting:

https://coinweek.com/us-coins/top-10-most-controversial-us-coins/

EliteCollection's coin heads the list. 

The 1933 Saint-Gaudens $20 Gold Double Eagle

The Type 1 Standing Liberty Quarter

The 1964-D Peace Dollar

The 1804 Dollar

The 1946 Roosevelt Dime

The 1909-S VDB Cent

The 1793 Chain Cent

The $1,000,000,000,000 Platinum Coin

The 1921 Zerbe Morgan Dollar

The 1913 Proof Liberty Nickel

From CoinWeek:  "...Specifically, the coins’ role of backing gold certificates was of high importance because by law the certificates were redeemable in gold coinage at two-thirds of their face value."

Is this correct regarding Double Eagles ?  What about the other one-third ?  And I believe the book mentioned somewhere the percentage of gold certificates outstanding that had to be "backed" by Double Eagles (I don't believe other gold coins counted) which is different than the percentage redeemed above (I think).

I'm not sure RWB had a section solely on Gold Certificates, I'll look for it or the key sections if he or nobody else doesn't chime in.

Gold and Silver Certificates are a fascinating niche with how they interacted with the underlying metals and coins.

Did anybody correct the "well-known numismatist ?"

I think I see the term "Roman" in descriptions because people brought up on Breen's stuff look for that key word since the new terminology might not "grab" them.

I kept getting the 2 different proofs from that era confused when I read about them in your book and QDB's.  Had to break down all the key descriptives into the 2 camps:  Roman Gold....Matte Proof....Satin Proof....Sandblasted....etc.  The words would change and I wouldn't know which coin the author/article was talking about.

And I believe you told me that the modern "shiny mirror-like" proof appearance that most of us know today didn't happen until a few decades later.

On 11/10/2022 at 9:55 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Thank you my friend. My son really liked it so I bidded on it and lucked out and won.

Where'd you get it ?

On 11/9/2022 at 6:43 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

As one of those clowns 🤡 of which you so eloquently speak, I appreciate your regimented analysis and elaboration.  Now I can add "Gold Expert" to my resume.    

No, not talking about you, QA, or my friends here.  The scamsters cherry-picking starting and ending points.

That's why ROLLING time periods eliminates time bias. 

On 11/9/2022 at 7:57 PM, EagleRJO said:

Buck up QA, I think it was just meant as a pot shot at me, and a pretty childish one at that, since I humorously disagreed with him. Including that markets all go up, with up and down swings ... "at least since the bi-metallic money standard ended" [in 1973].

I believe he forgot that he himself argued something similar in a different thread that relative to evaluating gold prices ... "the price was artificially suppressed for decades prior to 1973. The history of the price is false, since government dictated it" ... So we are all in the "clown" category now, and I will leave it at that as stated.  

No, wasn't referring to my friends here ....talking about the late-night infomercials or dishonest "gold bugs" talking about gold's returns from 1973 to 1980 as "inflation protection" or the annual returns from 1973 to the present or 1992 or 2009 to the present.  The numbers are cherry-picked. 

The 1970's were a once-in-a-lifetime experience.  Gold was unfixed after decades of being price controlled....inflation soared...oil shocks....political upheavel....currencies under Bretton Woods fell apart.  There are so many ways to hedge inflation today that didn't exist 40+ years ago.

As an example....back in 1980, both gold and the foreign exchange market traded about $1 billion a day.  Today gold trades about $50 billion daily.....and currency trades are at about $6 TRILLION a day.

On 11/9/2022 at 7:57 PM, EagleRJO said:

Luckily, I had been dumping as much as I could from the individuals and tax returns into I-Series at ~10% before everything fell apart to soften the blow, as well as buying a bunch of coins which have pretty much held. And all my bullion investments are still up, including moving some individuals into that a while ago to diversify a bit, or for more recent ones just about holding steady even with the drastic price drops we just had. And you are right that the value of our coins have not suffered the same fate as the stock market.  

Good actions ! 

On 11/9/2022 at 12:58 PM, EagleRJO said:

No, that may just be your individual preferred valuation metric. Turn on the news and look at a Dow chart and it's in absolute values. Hold a bar of gold in your hand and look at the chart on the news, and nothing is rolling. 😜 

I get what your saying as a valuation comparison metric, but it's just not how people think or the concensus as you see absolute comparison charts like those posted all over the place.

No, rolling periods eliminates TIME BIAS because otherwise the starting and ending periods for a measurement can be biased.  That's the problem with all these clowns who use 1973 as a starting point for gold.

For those who don't know what I am talking about....for a 20 year time-horizon.....1973-1993 returns.....1974-1994 returns.....1975-1995 returns.....etc.  This is a fair and impartial way of comparing returns over time.

The #1 guy in crypto just lost 94% of his net worth in 1 day. If HE has no idea what is happening, those of you "invested" in this stuff should ask how you do:

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2...-a-billionaire-after-146b-overnight-wipe-out/

On 11/9/2022 at 8:43 AM, EagleRJO said:

Not really true. Historically they all have up and down swings, but all go up over time, at least since the bi-metallic money standard ended. Bond markets (not just individual bonds or classes) have the least amount of swings and lowest return over time. Stock markets actually have the greatest amount of swings, but also the greatest return over time.

No....you have to use rolling time periods and when you do stocks are the best-performing asset class with medium volatility and drawdowns.  Bonds are 2nd and gold/commodities bring up the rear along with cash/money markets.

Bonds are having their worst year in a century this year.

On 11/8/2022 at 7:34 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There is one promise I never had difficulty keeping. Strolling thru Grand Central back in the 1970's, observing scores of people fixated on moving tapes with letters and numbers, I mused to myself, "I'll never be like them."

I have never paid much attention to price. What goes up must come down, and vice versa. It seems to me, right now may be a good time to buy if the availability is there.

Precious metals/commodities tend to have big cyclical moves....stocks move UP over time, in the aggregate....bonds are capped by Laws Of Mathematics (duration, credit losses).

So it's more than just "what goes up must come down."  Depends on how much of each !! 

On 11/8/2022 at 6:55 PM, EagleRJO said:

Even though that was about gold coins with a possible derailment, back to "investments" ... how about those infomercials selling gold portfolios that show gold shooting up to a unicorn $2,050/oz where it was earlier this year (right before is subsequently completely tanked), and then cutting away to the box of shiny 1-kilo bars (~$55k ea) that are lit up like a Christmas morning smile. Yea, that is what you are going to get when you call.

My understanding from clients/friends/family -- I wasn't into gold/coins at the time -- was that decades ago firms like Blanchard used to sell you the bullion coins and then try and get you to move into the numismatics.  My uncle for one bought a few dozen Saints (after buying bullion coins), though I've never seen them (I think I told him to catalog them for me a few months ago ).

In retrospect, it turned out OK for him as most of the time he bought gold was probably $400-500.  While more gains were to be made by buying bullion, even paying a rich premium for numismatics turned out OK (to what extent I don't know).

The Zimbabwe Dollar is more stable. 

On 11/8/2022 at 5:46 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Think about that a moment... seems like now is the time to:  buy!   Buy!! BUY!!!  BUY!!!!  BUY!!!!!

What are you buying ?  It's like buying cheap stocks, but not being sure if the exchange or transfer agent or brokerage firm will be able to credit you the shares. 

This would be comical if not for the $$$ losses for small investors.

Crypto got slammed today because one of the "saviors" of all the stablecoins, exchanges, etc....needed to be bailed out himself.

BitCoin was down at the open...rallied on the merger/bailout news....then fell back to down 12% or so at the close.

If the exchanges and individuals backing this stuff are shaky, how can the underlying cryptos and coins inspire confidence? 

Until you get some super-deep pocketed billionaire like a Musk, Bezos, Buffet, etc.....this thing is shaky.  It's like putting  huge $$$ into a bank with no FDIC insurance and the bank owners tell you "Trust us." 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/08/cryptocurrencies-slide-as-worries-about-ftx-fester-in-latest-crypto-liquidity-scare.html

On 11/8/2022 at 12:00 PM, Ray Tatum said:

My question is answered, banter is okay now? Right?

Back-and-forth and learning is why we are all here.  But when someone posts something that is CLEARLY or OBJECTIVELY not the case, people here will note it.  No exceptions....we're tough on newbies or vets. 

I'm surprised they could track it down back then....and surprised they retrieved it.  Even with the lower prices then prevailing in the economy, a few thousand dollars in gold given the volume of gold coins minted (from $20 down to $2.50 or whatever) would seem a rounding error.

Interesting, Roger...thanks ! 

On 11/6/2022 at 9:15 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Been too much nonsense and irrelevant posts, and other than the research posts from RWB, there just seems to be too much worthless junk to wade through. I'm sure Ricky Rooster can step right up and provide accurate info to the new collectors who really want to learn (at least the few of them that aren't trolls or alt users).  I'm sure his posts will continue to be as useful as always.  Best of luck to you all Outta here

Because of more total posters, I see more relevant threads of the kind you seek over at CU, CT, etc.  But they have their share of downtime and OT threads.

I've done my best to resuscitate old threads while creating new ones on coins I have interest in (Saints, Morgans) and topics regarding the intersection of our hobby and financial markets.  Sometimes I get a winner (73 pages on Roger's book) and sometimes it's a clunker (threads of 1-2 pages over a few years).

I hope you stay and just are more selective in what threads you open and/or read.  I enjoy your commentary.

On 11/7/2022 at 12:12 PM, RWB said:

Gold and silver evaporated during melting and were annually recovered from flues and chimneys -- even from the roof of an adjacent building.

You're telling us that gold went up in smoke.....vaporized....then re-constituted itself as gold flakes on houses across the street ?   And they tracked down that minute amount ?

Wow...unreal. 

On 11/6/2022 at 9:57 PM, VKurtB said:

There is a HUGE phalanx of newbies out there with hubris and confidence faaaar in excess of their experience’s ability to cover it. They’re swarming here like locusts. 

Yes, I'm waiting for one to show up here offering me authentic MS-65 Saints at $1,200 a pop. 

On 11/6/2022 at 3:15 PM, Ray Tatum said:

I want to see his skills in a slab if he has more skills than ye whom he informs. I have opinion without authority, I shoot my foot aiming at the thread. I regret that my text caused your unease, that is not what I wanted.—Craig.

Craig, what do you want to bet that not only does the coin NOT get the designation OR grade he seeks....but that he never posts again here and/or doesn't post with the TPG grade he receives ?  

On 11/6/2022 at 6:44 AM, Ray Tatum said:

Thread reeks of envy, I hope that it gets the grade that you deserve. Good luck.

If someone states something that a bunch of people -- most of whom do not know one another and haven't met at all or many times and thus have no coordinated benefit to all taking 1 side of a debate -- "reek of envy"......couldn't it just be that they are RIGHT ?????