GoldFinger1969

On 11/20/2022 at 10:37 AM, zadok said:

...most colleges n universities r not non-profit nor 501(c)-3 eligible....

My understanding is they are tax-exempt and most/all probably have 501(c)-3 status....certainly, their endowments do NOT pay income taxes.

https://www.aau.edu/sites/default/files/AAU Files/Key Issues/Taxation %26 Finance/Tax-Exempt-Status-of-Universities-FINAL.pdf

The statement on "attempting to influence legislation" is so wide and broad you can drive a fleet of Suezmax and Panamax boats through it. 

On 11/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, zadok said:

...nope its current...

OK, but I'm just saying that the notion that tax-exempts don't lobby or speak out is nonsense.  They do it ALL the time.  Biggest example is churches, esp. black churches.  Synagogues, too (Israel).  

This statement is contradicted by what Kurt posted before it.  It really is saying STOP and GO at the same time:  "Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying.  For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

On 11/20/2022 at 1:16 AM, VKurtB said:

Taking a law enforcement stance, advocating for or against ANY legislation, and THAT INCLUDES coinage legislation

That's preposterous.  That goes to the very nature of the organization.

It would be like colleges and universities not lobbying on educational matters or churches/synagogues not speaking out on legislation or foundations or charities not speaking out.  They do it ALL the time.

Direct endorsements of specific political candidates or lining up with 1 party are the issue, NOT speaking out or lobbying on relevant legislation.  Now, if the ANA decided to campaign in favor of cutting the capital gains tax and using resources and $$$ that would be another thing (although even here if you can prove a link 5-6% was said decades ago to be OK on political spending by the IRS).  But lobbying against sales tax on coin sales -- direct interest and no problem.

On 11/20/2022 at 1:27 AM, VKurtB said:

This is from irs.gov: “An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation.  Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying.  For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

This is boilerplate.  Tax-exempts lobby and support all kinds of legislation all of the time.

Providing direct political assistance to specific political candidates is trickier.  But I suspect your citataion above is outdated or superseded by other clauses.

On 11/20/2022 at 1:16 AM, VKurtB said:

Taking a law enforcement stance, advocating for or against ANY legislation, and THAT INCLUDES coinage legislation, insisting you’re due a seat on a committee whose membership is specified in federal statute, for example. Now EDUCATING about any of those TO YOUR MEMBERSHIP? That is fine. 

I do not believe the IRS is going to have a problem with any of those advocacy positions.  Plenty of 501(c)-3's do that all the time.

On 11/20/2022 at 12:56 AM, VKurtB said:

We need to understand the impact of IRS regulations. Yes, the ANA does pre-exist the IRS, and some of the suggestions Roger made/makes/ad nauseam were ONCE the types of things the ANA did. But when the IRS came up with the rules for 501(c)3 educational organizations, and ANA chose that status, many previously allowed activities had to cease. And so they have. 

Unless it's politics or personal enrichment via excessive compensation, the 501(c)-3 rules are very flexible.

What are you saying is off-limits ?

On 11/16/2022 at 12:00 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I discuss and talk about my collection on here a whole lot. I feel safe talking bout it here. But very few people around home know Ive got it. I got several neighbors who would break into my house in a heartbeat to fund their meth habit. They all know we both work and they brave enough to try it if they knew what I had. I dont think anyone on this forum would come from way off to get my small collection but some of my neighbors could walk down and get them we live so close. They robbed bout everyone around.Stole a brand new four wheeler off me back in 2001. Still owed $5,000 on it. Had to pay it off and never got it back. 

Invest in a strong....tough....HEAVY.....safe. 

On 11/19/2022 at 6:45 PM, RWB said:

Wealth could be concentrated in diamonds and easily concealed (even swallowed). Gold was much harder to deal with.

Yes...and it seems an average 1-kt. diamond in the 1930's was about $75-$125.

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next 3 coins in the series.

1908-D Type 3 / Long Rays, With Motto: Several hundred coins for this particular type came from Central America in 1983. The Manfra, Tordella, and Brookes Hoard (1983) is probably the largest gold coin hoard ever found. Most of the 47,000 coins consisted of U.S. Double Eagles, mostly Saints, but many Liberty Heads, too. The rest (<5,000) were smaller denomination gold coins.

Discovered in Central America -- El Salvador -- more than 90% of the coins were uncirculated. Thousands graded MS64, MS65, and even higher.  Stack’s co-sold the coins and they say they were contacted by a major foreign bank to gauge interest in acquiring a large holding of U.S. gold coins consisting mostly of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles.   It was one of the major banks who received and stored U.S. gold coins as payment from the U.S. government.

There were over 100 MS64, MS65, and MS66 specimens for this particular 1908-D WM LR. Subsequently other uncirculated examples of the 1908-D WM including many choice specimens, were located in Europe and sold in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Because of this increased supply, as many as 250-300 Gem Mints are now known of this previously impossible-to-find issue, although no more than a few, perhaps 12-15 at most, are Superb Gems (MS-67 and up).

1908-D No-Motto: The same MTB 1983 El Salvador Hoard contained many uncirculated examples of the 1908-D No Motto, many of them grading choice to gem uncirculated with some superb MS66. Before the hoard, the 1908-D NM was very scarce in high grades.

1908 No-Motto: The famous "Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard" was comprised of 19,900 coins from Central or South American. The hoard's Saint DEs had been kept in sealed bags since 1917. These bags had been temporarily stored in the vault of a Wells Fargo Bank, to which the hoard owes its name.

The 1908 No-Motto Saints from the "Wells Fargo Hoard" are of nearly uniform high quality, most grading out in the MS65 to MS67 range when they were submitted to the major certification services. Even more significantly, the hoard contained 10 MS-69s, 101 MS-68's, and over 1,000 MS-67's.

There's more details to the story, but Ron Gillio has never given specifics on the nature of the hoard: who owned the coins, which country they came from, bank or private investor or military personnel or govt agency, etc. It's understandable why he would remain quiet when the coins came out in the late-1990's; you would hope he would not be as constrained 25 years later.

On 11/19/2022 at 1:11 PM, RWB said:

It appears that the most common asset conversion was into diamonds. Small, light, easy to transport a lot of value in a small space, easily converted into cash once safely out of Nazi hands.

I would think that even a small diamond -- while easier to smuggle -- would have cost a few hundred dollars in the 1920's or 1930's, right ?

Where did you get it ?  It looks like corrosive damage.

Welcome to the forum.  Hope you stick around a while ! 

On 11/19/2022 at 6:24 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive been thinking real hard on some type of birth year set. I was born in 82 so Ive been thinking about all the varities of the 1982 Lincoln cent. Also the proof. All except the rare one. Id have to sell a kidney or something to get it. That would be a fun birth set to do. Try and get them all in high grades. Ive had many people tell me I should consider doing a birth set. I think I will make an attempt soon. 

Not a bad idea....I believe I have a 1982 MS or PF67 Red Penny that I picked up at FUN 2020 for like $20 when I just wanted to wipe out my allocated $$$ for coins on the final Sunday. 

On 11/18/2022 at 11:14 PM, RWB said:

There is data on the subject of the amount of gold brought into the US by immigrants. It was requested by the Treasury Dept and provided by steam ship lines for multiple classes of passengers. First class had a little gold to exchange in Europe and vice versa, but they used letters of credit for most things. Steerage passengers often carried all they had in the world, with most possessions turned into coins and paper currency; most was paper with a few silver and gold coins, but not a large sum -- $5 or $10. xperiences after landing in America depended on what the immigrant family did for income or by trade. Farmers had almost no cash of any kind except at harvest. Merchants cycles money through the business; wage earners barely paid the bills unless fortunate to have a needed skill.I feel that most commentators give entirely too much credence to claims that ordinary people used gold coins or to its importance in the economy. Most of the stuff sat in Government vaults -- it was not wanted.

European Jews seemed to have an affinity for gold and gold coins.  Probably because many were businessmen and/or involved in the jewelry trade.  Plus, when you needed to travel or flee persecution....gold coins were universally accepted.  Stories abound of many immigrants hiding gold coins inside the linings of clothing, which I am sure you are aware of.

I agree with you on the overall use of gold coinage -- most sat in vaults.  But lots were hoarded by various groups and I think that's why we continue to see a drip-drip-drip out of SDBs in the U.S. and more so European banks.

Doug Winter and others with contacts overseas continue to track a steady flow from Europe to the U.S. of Liberty and Saint DEs.  Nothing compared to decades ago....but enough to impact select pricing in certain dates.

On 11/18/2022 at 7:07 PM, RWB said:

Middle and lower income families  did not have or save gold coins -- they represented too much value to hold on to. For middle class people, a gold coin or two might have passed through their hands occasionally, but again it was too much to keep and not use. Only big city banks had gold coin on hand, and then only for their "premier" customers. Gold was a dead asset neither yielding income nor drawing interest.  P.S: It still is.

You're essentially correct...but still, many people DID keep gold.  You know who did ?  Immigrants like my family....Italians, Slavs, Greeks, Jews, and other immigrants from 1880 on.

I'm not saying they were Silas Marner with a huge pot of gold coins.  A $20 double eagle might represent 2 months of income for some depending on the year we're talking about.  But after working a few years, it wouldn't take much to accumulate SOME savings -- and clearly, many people (esp. immigrants) distrusted banks.

Maybe there were some surveys of small denomination gold coins and how many circulated, I dunno.  I just think from talking to many of my friends today almost ALL of our grandparents/great-grandparents had a few gold coins (and none were higher than lower middle-class or "poor" at the time they worked).  All of us all had those elders turn in their gold in the 1930's....it was considered your patriotic duty....and recent immigrants were afraid not to comply.

My grandfather (mom's father) had a dozen or more gold coins he had accumulated while in the Merchant Marines, travelling around the world.  I don't know if they were Liberty's or Saints (he was active from 1923-41) or foreign gold coins (though I doubt they were those).  I wish I had asked him when he was alive.

On 1/29/2022 at 3:56 PM, zadok said:

...yea ive been meaning to give that bag back but it makes such a good door stop.....

I'm surprised RWB is the only one who has really written about those stolen 1928 DEs to the best of my knowledge.

Cannot recall anything written by QDB,  RWJ, etc....on that rather large theft.  As Roger has said, there isn't much information to go on aside from an old 1928 DE bag that was auctioned off.  For whatever reason, Mint personnel were not grilled about what went wrong when the bill to relieve the Mint Super of personal liability commenced 10-15 years later.

On 11/18/2022 at 5:26 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

For the benefit of those curious as to the reception they may receive when it comes time to sell, I provide, as a public service, the following snippet of dialog regarding a wrist-watch between Louis Winthorpe III (Dan Ackroyd) and a pawnshop owner (Bo Diddley) from the 1983 movie, Trading Places...LW III:  "Fifty bucks?  No, no no!  This is a Rochefoucauld!  The thinnest water-resistant watch in the world.  Singularly unique, sculptured in design, hand-crafted in Switzerland and water-resistant to three atmospheres.  This is *the* sports watch of the '80's. Six thousand nine hundred fifty-five ($6,955.) dollars, retail.  It tells time in Monte Carlo, Beverly Hills, London, Paris, Rome and Gstaad."  Pawnbroker:  "In Philadelphia, it's worth 50 bucks." ote:  To appreciate the gist of my analogy, simply substitute "50 bucks" for "melt."  As always, your experience may differ.  

GREAT movie !!

"Wasn't no cop man, it was COPSSSS...SSSS....plural....9 or 10 cops !!" 

I'm not an expert on these procedures, but I do not believe that with business booming that NGC would have knowingly steered you into something just to make a few bucks.

On 11/18/2022 at 12:13 PM, VKurtB said:

Very few families ever thought actual gold was in any way important. I STILL don’t. 

Well, you can't have a run on the gold coins in your floorboard !! 

On 1/29/2022 at 12:25 PM, RWB said:

By mid-1932 almost all quantities of gold in public hands was in hoards. The general populace - rich or poor - seldom used gold coins. The rich used paper currency equivalents and checks, the poor never had any. Most international corporate payments were by letter-of-credit, transfer note, ear-mark and other non-physical gold and money movements.

I'm surprised more lower-income households didn't keep their savings in gold vs. banks.  After all the "panics" throughout the decades and with FDIC Insurance decades away, you would think little stashes were more popular pre-1933.

On 1/28/2022 at 9:55 PM, DWLange said:

The Numismatic Bibliomania Society hosts an author at its annual meeting during the ANA convention to speak about his or her book or the writing/publishing process. I was the speaker some years ago, but I've not been able to break away from the NGC booth since then to give any programs. I also used to participate at the Whitman booth for its Meet the Authors sessions, but I found that few persons ever stopped their frenzied bourse perusal to chat.

Thinking about this now....it seems to me that one of the reasons Randy's talk at FUN 2020 was so well-attended was the promise of him giving out 10 undervalued Morgan years/mints.

Even at a coin conference, having a talk on "The History of Saints, 1907-33" might not be an attention-grabber.  Better to have something like "Ways To Make $$$ With Saints in 2023" or something like that.

On 11/17/2022 at 5:29 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

You guys were getting me worried for a few minutes here, throwing around NFT without me knowing what it stood for.  Wondered if some of my investments were NFTs.  Checked monthly statements; holdings are ETFs.  NFT:  Non-Fungible Token  ETF:  Exchange-Traded Fund

Yeah, you're OK....   NFT's I know what it stands for but no idea what it technically is.  Art is one thing but NFTs as "digital art" doesn't grab me.

ETFs (beware ETNs !!) are OK though liquidity issues in a downturn do happen.  And I got burned with a few money-market type ETFs which lost bids and declined more than I thought in March/April 2020.  It was a pandemic but it taught me there's no substitute for Treasury bills/notes/bonds and MMFs.

Caveat Emptor ! 

On 11/17/2022 at 2:18 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

You being sarcastic? At least 1c!

No, I honestly have no idea what pennies are worth numismatically.  I actually bought a PR67 Red somethingorother at FUN 2020 for like $20.  Can't remember what year....1982 ?  1983 ?

On 11/17/2022 at 2:42 PM, gmarguli said:

And they did second round financing a little while later valuing the company at $5+ billion.

Who did their valuation, Sam Bankman-Fried !!?? 

They just got bought out, I can't see the value going up that much.

Lot of other partners, including Roc Nation and others.  This appears to be an NFT play:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/9253/

Would not be surprised if CCG/NGC went private again down the line with the original founders/owners if the growth angle doesn't materialize.  We'll see if BX can turn CCG/NGC into a multi-billion dollar market cap company.