GoldFinger1969

On 11/14/2022 at 3:30 PM, VKurtB said:

I may just have to knuckle under and buy another RWB book. I wish he did hard cover. 

From the thread, I believe that choice was made by HA.  I made the same suggestion.

On 11/14/2022 at 3:05 PM, Morpheus1967 said:

I simply don't care.  

I believe he's the shortstop in Abbott & Costello's "Who's On First" !!   

On 11/14/2022 at 3:00 PM, VKurtB said:

Really? I’d like to read more suggesting it was innocent international trade. 

DEs backed Gold Certificates and were used in international trade (alongside 400 oz. bars).  RWB's book has several chapters and lots of pages documenting specific usages.  You even have specific year and mintages of Saints being tracked for particular uses (i.e, The Dawes Plan and 1925 Saints).

It is believed that the 1908 Wells Fargo No Motto Hoard was originally used in 1917 for some international trade settlement.

On 11/14/2022 at 11:38 AM, VKurtB said:

Interesting way to put it. I get a mental picture of $20 gold pieces randomly staggering drunk on a pier somewhere, and accidentally getting kicked aboard ship by a careless human. Another way to put this is “they were smuggled overseas”, no?

Not smuggled, but international trade for the most part, Kurt. 

And with countries and boundaries disappearing for decades in Europe....local and continent-wide wars....gold coins found a bigger following among banks and the citizenry than over here in the U.S.

SDBs and bank vaults in Europe probably had the bulk of today's remaining Saint-Gaudens coinage.  Can't remember if RWB's Saints DE gave a split, but I would wenture that only a few hundred thousand (tops) were in the hands of collectors, dealers, and Americans using their 5-coin limit....the rest from European and South/Central American hoards.

Because we have a longer Wells Fargo Hoard Thread, I thought I would include some other Saint Hoard findings that I've tabulated in this smaller thread.

I thought a year-by-year rundown of the various Saint hoards might be of interest. Most of this information is from Roger Burdette's excellent book on Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles but also includes snippetts I've collected over the years from various sources. Down the line, I'll probably put it into a nice Word or PDF document if anybody wants it, with more details and commentary than these summaries.

I'll do them a few at a time, unless there's so much information that a sole entry is best.   

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: 

Here's the MCMVII 1907 HR, 1907, and 1908-D Short Ray No Motto:

MCMVII High Relief: The actor Adolphe Menjou supposedly had 250 High Relief coins. A hard-money believer, he told many friends he had lots of gold squirreled away in various SDBs thoughout LA and California in the 1930's and 1940's. He died in 1963 and his coins were sold off in auctions up to the 1970's but I could not find any articles or public mentions of any sizeable 1907 HR stache at that time.

1907: 95% of the mintage found its way to overseas vaults. Most went to Europe where they exhibited marks and abrasions consistent with handling during counting, stacking and re-bagging operations. About 35% may have gone to Central and South American countries where the coins remained in their original bags and were subject to much less moving, bag marks, etc. Survivors from these pieces are the primary source of high-grade examples of this date.

1908-D Short Ray No Motto: No large hoards have been found. Most of the pieces came from European central banks looted by Germany during World War II and eventually stored in the Kaiseroda potassium mine near the village of Merkers. It is probable that most 1908-D SR NM coins came from here.

On 11/14/2022 at 9:20 AM, VKurtB said:

Just for your info, ALL the European 20’s from Latin Monetary Union were and are about 1/5 ounce, a little under. They are similar in weight to a Stella. 

So is the Vatican coin I got years ago. 

On 11/14/2022 at 9:07 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

It's a sad man who places the value of his worth on the number of followers he has.  

How do you even figure out how many "followers" you have ?  

On 11/13/2022 at 11:41 PM, zadok said:

...not even close, .1867 troy ounce of gold....

100 Francs ?  They had to have something closer to 1 ounce, I thought most of the European countries minted larger coins.  But maybe I am wrong.

Yeah, I should have known about the 20 Franc....especially since I have one sitting 3 feet away from me !!!!  

I blame France for dumping the Franc and going with the Euro !! 

On 11/13/2022 at 11:12 PM, VKurtB said:

Agreed. But where are the valuable coin posts? And valuable to WHOM exactly? Yes, we all get that you are a HUUUGE “Saint” fan. I’m not. I have become kind of a 20Fr Coq Marianne fan. So here’s the problem. 
New YouTube or Etsy “educated” (as if) members are the scourge of the hobby AND the site. EVERYBODY’S site. 

I had never even HEARD of "Roosters" until QA started posting about them here.  Now, I would like to get the 20 Franc (I believe that's a 1 oz. coin or close to it) Rooster down the line.  Have never seen a Rooster thread or post over at CU or CT or anywhere else for that matter.

There's nothing wrong with not having interest in threads here, even lots of them.  If you find 1 or 2 threads that interest you....as a reader, poster, or both.....then Mission Accomplished.  

On 11/13/2022 at 11:07 PM, VKurtB said:

I do know that anything critical of the company that hosts ATS is subject to removal. It’s THAT parochial over there. It’s why I CHOOSE not to post often there. I’m nobody’s “company man”.

Yup, alot of people I wanted to learn from got kicked out from over there.  Outside of Roy Langbord, nobody over there who is must-reading that I have seen even though there are some good threads and good people there.

Also seems to me that PCGS/CU is more akin to a "day trading" operation approach to coins -- lots of trend followers and folks hopping on hot ideas -- whereas here @ NGC we are more long-term investors looking for quality over time.

JMHO, of course. 

I wish we spent half as much time posting on coin stuff and creating interesting threads on classic coins or the hobby in general as we do sniping at one another. 

Ultimately, just like a thread or post on coins I have no interest in, if someone posts something you consider stupid or off-topic or inapproppriate or demeaning or whatever.....you can just ignore it.  The good thing about forums is....if a topic or post doesn't get new posts, it fades away (like alot of the Saint-Gaudens threads I keep trying to keep on life support  ).

Life's too short, fellas.  Let's get back to coins, OK ? 

On 11/13/2022 at 3:44 PM, robec1347 said:

I’m not so sure about the old guard causing the Sleepy Hollow nickname. I started posting here in 2006. Most, if not all, the old guard was posting. I don’t remember any of them driving anyone off then or now. It was also referred to as Sleepy Hollow then, mainly by the PCGS crowd because compared to the traffic they had it was more of a vacation here. This site has always been welcoming and friendly, especially when compared to starting new on the PCGS boards. 

Any idea how many posts over ATS vs. here daily ?

The other coins, with the Indian Head (male).....$5 and $2.50.....ASG designed those too, right ?  Or just the $20 and $10 before he died ?

On 11/13/2022 at 5:02 PM, zadok said:

...no i was referring to the $10 saint gaudens coins, ones with the indian style headdress they r selling for less than half of the asking price of the $20s in common dates n in my opinion much more attractive coin...the $5 incuse indian head is a short set n easily put together if so inclined, one semi-key n one so-called key date but all r available...locally i am seeing the $20 saints selling rite at melt n in some instances slightly below for ms61-62 coins...roosters n other generic bullion coins readily available in unc for melt plus 1-2%, just a matter of which country or design u prefer....

This collapse in crypto won't help with any who are not part of the die-hards.  Lots of other people will go back to PM's or traditional financial investments.

On 11/13/2022 at 12:13 PM, Coinbuf said:

While often coin dealers deal in bullion gold and silver, there is a difference in how they operate between bullion and collector coins.   Yes bullion is bought and then sold almost immediately by coin dealers to the bullion wholesalers.   They then do what they do to move it along the pipeline, all this takes a few hours to a day or so at most.   But collectable coins are different, a dealer who bought inventory when gold was high, (important to remember that most dealers still leave room for markup), he may not have been able to sell all those coins before the price fell back.   So depending on how badly that dealer needs to turn that inventory he may be perfectly happy to sit on it at high prices and wait for the next price run up.

This makes sense, it's an illiquidity premium that numismatics should have.  The bid-ask spread (as we call it) should compensate for this risk.

On 11/13/2022 at 12:13 PM, Coinbuf said:

So depending on how badly that dealer needs to turn that inventory he may be perfectly happy to sit on it at high prices and wait for the next price run up.

Yeah, but what if we are talking YEARS ?  What did dealers who bought in 1980 or 1989 or 2011 do ?  I guess many eventually folded and sold, right CB ?

On 11/13/2022 at 12:13 PM, Coinbuf said:

Also collectors and speculators who bought gold coins at full retail from a coin dealer or auction site while prices were at the top might be trying to sell now through places like GC or Ebay and setting high reserves to try and recoup all or most of the purchase price and fees.   And fees are a big consideration for higher priced items like this, if you don't have a store on ebay the fees will be 5-8% higher.

The gold coin market has lots of nuances and players with different motivations and considerations when it comes to pricing collectable and bullion gold coins.   Add to that the seemingly endless strong demand for both bullion and collector coins and it's really no surprise that we are still seeing high asking prices.   I also think that many sellers believe, as you have predicted in some of your replies on gold, that the spot price still has some upside potential.   Thus, if they believe that then there is no reason to take a loss unless the cashflow becomes an issue.

Makes sense, thanks CB !! 

Anything of interest in them as far as you know ?

Even if undergraded, original GSA holders are going to be like PCGS and NGC holders from their first few years of operation...worth more in the original holder with a lower grade than being cracked-out and given a higher one. 

On 6/29/2021 at 6:05 PM, Conder101 said:

I wonder how NGC identified it as coming from the hoard considering the hoard was disbursed almost ten years before NGC existed and as far as I know no company used any special holders for them.

Continental-Illinois got into trouble in 1984 (right after I got out of college).  So I guess the coins hit in 1983 or 1984 or 1985.  That would have been only a few years before PCGS and NGC started up.  But I am sure they didn't do special labels for various collections for a few more years after start-up.

On 6/23/2021 at 7:05 AM, Jack Corso said:

Found a 1883 O NGC MS63. Overpaid for it but it completes my hoard collection.

Can you post the pics ?  I've never see the label.

Viet, did you get any of the Redfield Morgans ?  Have you also looked at original GSA coins ?

And thank-you for your service to our country !! 

Funny story involving 1929 Saints and England....a couple of guys joked that 40 of the coins had been found in England (this was the early-1980's I believe) and it reached Walter Breen who took it and ran with it apparently.  Steven Fenton (of 1933 Saint fame) and a few others were the jokesters and for a while folks assumed it was real. 

Not sure if it depressed 1929 prices for a while.

On 9/15/2021 at 2:27 PM, Vess1 said:

  Ok?  Lol That’s all that is known?  What casino?  What year?  Why did it warrant its own special label?   I’m just trying to understand the significance of it.   Usually there’s a proper name or place associated with a hoard. That info would be nice to know if looking to purchase these and possibly pay a premium over it.

Some of that information might be sensitive and so I could see someone wanting to get the label but not give out too much information that might lead back to him/her....the specific casino...or other individuals that got tipped off that they missed out on a windfall.

On 11/13/2022 at 8:23 AM, zadok said:

...n here i thought an arbitrage was something u wore around ur neck when the ship is sinking...i guess that could still be rite if ur ship is the USS Crypto....

I think the crack-out game is understandable if you have a coin YOU LIKE..and you think it's undergraded and re-submit....but that's different than deliberately going after coins you intend to sell solely because you think they are undergraded.

For veterans and experts like yourself, maybe a niche sector can be exploited, Zad.  Clearly, alot of coins -- including Saints and Indian Heads -- were undergraded when they were raw and without a TPG holder in the 1970's,1980's, 1990's and early 2000's.  Especially high-end coins found at auctions.  David Akers used to find coins 2-3 grades too low that were given by dealers or the estates.

On 11/12/2022 at 10:37 PM, Coinbuf said:

One reason for the continued high gold coin prices is that many bought them at the height of the price bubble and are reluctant to sell at a loss.   And gold is just in high demand even now.

I guess I've never understood this because I've never run a business...but much like a bookie not caring who wins or loses....aren't dealers in numismatics (like bullion dealers) supposed to buy and sell at prevailing MARKET rates ?  If they buy high and sell for a loss it should be offset by the times they bought cheap and sold for a windfall, no ?

No way a bullion dealer could buy gold at $2,050 at the highs in recent years and then try and sell it for that price (plus a markup) when gold fell back to $1,800-$1,900.