GoldFinger1969

More on Barber from the Heritage archives:

"...One theme that runs through the literature on the production of the Saint-Gaudens coinage is the obstructionism of Charles Barber. This is an easy case to make, and much of Barber's correspondence bears out this theme. But Charles Barber was not the one-dimensional character many make him out to be. He certainly was not an artist remotely near the level of Augustus Saint-Gaudens, but he was certainly a capable die sinker who could lay out coin designs that required only one blow from the dies. He also knew that high relief coins were unsuited to mass production. Barber was willing to work with Mint officials and the president to produce first the Ultra High Relief experimental pieces and then the High Relief twenties. It seems unlikely that Charles Barber was the complete antagonist as he is often portrayed. He enlisted the support of the Dietsch Brothers when he knew he needed further training on the Janvier Reduction Lathe. He obviously recognized the inherent artistic merit of the Saint-Gaudens twenties as his estate contained eight "1907 $20 pattern pieces," believed by Roger Burdette to all be Ultra High Reliefs."

I always enjoy your write-ups.   I hope to be at FUN 2024; missed being there this year and my last was FUN 2020.

Why are FUN-LB-ANA so tightly packed together ?  I thought in the past there were a few months between them all.

Glad to see -- in a perverse way -- that it's tough to find coins....combined with your observation that attendance was very good, I think it means that the hobby is on an upswing. 

Get your coins and bullion NOW before the price goes up ! 

On 1/10/2023 at 2:45 PM, jle123 said:

Hello all, My name is Jay and I have been asked to inventory and get a reasonable value for a collection of coins/silver/gold from my late father-in-law.  He lived and traveled around Europe in the 2000's and collected quite a few Thalers as well as some other world coins.  He also collected US coins - mainly Morgans and Peace dollars.  There is also some silver and gold bullion from various places.

If it is like most collections, 80-90% of the value will be in 10-20% of the coins, especially the gold ones.  So concentrate  there.

You might be able to sell individual coins worth a few $$$ solo and then sell the rest all in one group.  You'll get a fair price and also do it without occupying weeks or months of your time.

Let us know what interesting/valuable coins you find.  Good Luck !! 

Latest Wells Fargo 1908 NM population census:  7,768 PCGS...5,546 NGC....11,096 combined (with 40% NGC haircut).

I wonder if the normal "haircut" numbers should apply here since there is a belief that any NGC holder was a crack-out from the PCGS original holders and might be grade-inflated.

On 1/10/2023 at 10:07 AM, olympicsos said:

The rivalry was definitely overstated! I think Barber gets a bad rap for no good reason. 

I don't know that much about any "rivalry" -- I just know Barber was teed off that TR was giving ASG carte blanche to design the coins and the initial designs (MCMVII UHR and HR) were not practical for mass production.

Got the "1921" book yesterday....looks like "easy" reading with 220 pages of that "rough" paper that is easy to turn. 

Maybe I'll create a thread or talk about it here or in another existing thread but I couldn't help but go to one page on the Gold Standard and note that right before WW I started.....30,000 Frenchmen formed a line over 1 mile long to get their gold out of the Bank of France.  "The people knew what their government was loath to admit:  whatever else would come out of this war, the franc would be a loser."   

This goes to the desirability of U.S. gold coins being held in such quantities overseas....aside from the Civil War, America did not have a history of economic and monetary wipeouts that led to complete evisceration of the currency.  Even "panics" were contained somewhat.  Not so in Europe until the end of WW II.

Also from the book....late-July/early-August....with the Panic of 1907 behind them and a war likely in front of them NY'ers took $73 MM in gold from NYC banks.  Credit was tightening, money marker rates hit 8%.

I intend to re-read the relevant passages on the Gold Standard and the time from 1907-1922 in RWB's book and compare how they are written, sources, anectdotes, etc.

On 12/28/2022 at 10:47 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Anyone ever read Don Taxay's "The US Mint and Coinage?" 

This is one weird guy.....disappeared in the 1970's....."friend" of Breen's.....maybe that explains it. 

On 1/9/2023 at 10:24 PM, zadok said:

...majestic reverse yes but basically a refinement of Gobrecht's dollar reverse not a totally original design by ASG....

The tighter angle of the wings on the Saint is much nicer, IMO.  Gobrecht's isn't bad, though. 

Also like that the breast feathers on the Saint eagle are a good "high point" to look for wear/rub. 

On 1/9/2023 at 10:38 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I looked through at some of the sold prices his coins brought. Looks like he may have a little spending money in his pocket right now. Looks like they brought some very high prices. Thats an impressive collection. He had some very impressive coins in there. 

Very impressive collection and his name is on the labels.  Nice ! 

If he started collecting right after he retired from the Houston Oilers (1985), then he bought right into the Coin Bubble of 1989-90 and the Commemorative Bubble of the 1980's.  Hopefully he deployed cash in the 1990's and 2000's when coins were cheaper. 

On 1/9/2023 at 5:25 PM, olympicsos said:

I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

Well, Barber must have loved what ASG eventually designed as he grabbed 8 of the MCMVII UHRs !! 

Nothing about the $20 Barber in the Saints book, Olympics.  But if you search the internet there's some stuff here-and-there like the PCGS link I posted above.

Thank God TR hired ASG !! 

On 1/9/2023 at 5:25 PM, olympicsos said:

Since this is related to the Saint Gaudens series in some capacity, question for @RWB, is there any background on the 1906 Barber $20 pattern. I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

Looks like the only pattern created is in the Smithsonian:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1906-20-j-1773/62230

Interesting pattern....the obverse isn't as appealing to me as the Saint obverse (or even the Liberty obverse which is also dominated by a facial portrait)...the reverse is not as good IMO as the Liberty reverse and WAY BEHIND the Saint reverse, which to me has the best eagle:  in flight...majestic...soaring.  Just beautiful !!

On 1/8/2023 at 8:12 PM, RWB said:

Counting authentication quantity changes of this date/mint over time -- I don't remember the interval -- at NGC and PCGS. Then comparing rates against earlier and later periods.

I get 193,957 authentication events at PCGS...169,567 at NGC.....discount the NGC by 40%, it sums to 295,697.

So...in just about 8 years the number of events went up by just under 40,000 or about 15%.  

Is that telling you anything ?

On 1/9/2023 at 5:25 PM, olympicsos said:

Since this is related to the Saint Gaudens series in some capacity, question for @RWB, is there any background on the 1906 Barber $20 pattern. I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

Interesting....Roger's book has lots of information on the Barber vs. ASG conflict, drawn from his RoAC book.  I'll check it out later and report back in case Roger doesn't beat me to it (even if he does, he'll have more info than the book alone ).

On 1/9/2023 at 12:43 PM, RWB said:

Then he can read only only those three chapters - he has to buy more coins before you can allow him entrance into the Great Mysteries.

He's been telling me for YEARS he had Saint-Gaudens....I used to do his taxes in the 1990's and I remember introducing him to Blanchard when he wanted gold....so over the years he mentioned the Saints but I never paid any attention.

After I got into the coins, I asked him about them from time-to-time but it was only recently I asked him to give me a list so I could give him information on them.  I thought most of the coins he got from Blanchard/Monex/etc. were Saints, but in fact most were straight bullion and he has only a handful of Saints. 

There goes my inheritance.....

On 12/8/2022 at 12:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Importing and exporting is a pain in the backside. It always has been.

Yeah, George Costanza confirms this.....

On 1/3/2023 at 5:41 PM, Pisca said:

I am always interested in learning new things regarding coins..or anything else.  

Do you intend to pursue a particular type of coin ?

On 1/3/2023 at 5:41 PM, Pisca said:

Thank you all for your opinions. I have not actually bought any of the coins I have. Either they have been gifted to me or I aquired them from a store. I am always interested in learning new things regarding coins..or anything else. 😊 

We're happy to help you, Pisca. 

If a coin has SENTIMENTAL value, then even if it might not be worth it from a monetarily POV to submit to grading and the resultant fees.....you can make a case for doing it to preserve and protect the coin.  Of course, you'll also be paying for the grading plus the holder...and you can always just buy a protective holder solo if you prefer.

When you decide how serious you are going to pursue this hobby, and you determine what coins you will be seeking, you can check the price guides to see if you should be buying raw or graded coins.

On 1/8/2023 at 8:12 PM, RWB said:

Counting authentication quantity changes of this date/mint over time -- I don't remember the interval -- at NGC and PCGS. Then comparing rates against earlier and later periods.

Interesting....I'll keep an eye on this going forward since yours was based on 2015/16 data.

Funny story....ordered a copy of your book for my uncle...thought he had like 30-35 Saints...turns out he has 3 !! 

On 1/8/2023 at 2:26 PM, RWB said:

What I learned was reported in the DE book. It appears efforts were taken by all involved to hide or misdirect information about the coins and their acquisition. Unless a principal participant comes forth with a verifiable disclosure, we will never know the truth.

Understood....and you said here (not sure of in the book, I'll have to checK) that there were over 260,000 "authentication events" which (discounted by 40% to account for double-counts) leads you to think it might have been as large as 150,000 coins.

How did you find out 260,000 authentication (grading) events ?

Roger or Anybody Else: do you know if the entire 19,900 of the Wells Fargo Hoard were submitted for grading to the TPGs (PCGS)........or only about 9,000 coins with the rest deemed circulated and not worth getting graded ?

I can't find evidence that the entire amount was graded based on the grading totals cited but I can't believe that 1/2 the hoard was pristine and 1/2 was circulated.  I guess it's possible, just hard to believe.

For instance, I find a post from veterans ATS that only 1 coin was graded below MS-65, a sole MS-63.  But the TOTALs given don't sum to 19,900 just over 9,000.

I wonder if I contacted PCGS if they would provide an answer.  I'm assuming they graded 100% of the coins originally and the NGC holders represent crack-outs.

On 1/7/2023 at 6:37 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s far more “the rule” than you can possibly imagine. And I disagree that NGC and PCGS holders are the best home for preservation purposes. They’re meh, average, at best. Remember, GF, some of us have been at this hobby since long before TPGS even existed. Sixty years now for me. 

You're saying if you travel with coins that having them in an album or tissue paper or 2x2 is better than an NGC or PCGS (or even ANACS/ICG) holder ?  

On 1/7/2023 at 4:38 PM, RWB said:

No. It was part of normal behavior. Much like silver dollars, paper equivalents were much more convenient. And...paper was a precise quantity -- wear did not matter.

Gold demand in foreign trade dried up when trade and economic conditions turned south...that was what I was wondering about domestically with the 1921's....if their late release wasn't needed because demand was down....and/or..... if the lack of gold DEs itself could have been a depressing factor.  It's both a cause-and-effect thing sort of.

The beauty of the gold standard is that the economy does good when gold is plentiful and not as well when supplies are tight.  While the gold supplied from DEs was small relative to other forms of monetary easing, I think it could have been a small factor.

I'll know more in a few weeks. 

On 1/7/2023 at 3:26 PM, RWB said:

The only demand for DE was for export, so it didn't matter if they were "held as reserves" or not. This is much like the D and S mints later on.

Agreed.....I wonder if the lack of demand for gold in general and DEs in particular was a result of the economic downturn that year.

I'll know in a few days/weeks once I get/read the book. 

On 1/7/2023 at 1:05 PM, RWB said:

According to T Louis Comparette, Curator of the Philadelphia Mint Cabinet, 1921 DE were struck only for reserve purposes, and not intended for immediate distribution. (He was able to get a few in December 1921for Godard and others for whom he supplied new coins direct.) The situation changed a few months later and by spring 1922s were available to Comparette for private distribution to museums and large private collections. 1921s trickled out later.

Yeah, those DEs were struck in late-December 2021.  I think the latest batch ever struck.  

I'm awaiting my copy of James Grant's "The Forgotten Depression, 1921:  The Crash That Cured Itself."   This is one of the least-covered and researched downturns because it follows WW I and pre-dates The Roaring Twenties.  It's possible he will say something about gold and maybe even Double Eagles in the book as Grant is a hard-money advocate.

Restricting the issuance of (gold) Double Eagles is akin to tight money policies though I don't know if it was more cause or effect back then as the FRB had been formed only 8 years earlier.

On 3/18/2022 at 7:43 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

"....Breen may have confused the 1931-D group with a hoard of 1928 double eagles (25 pieces in an original bank bag) that surfaced in 1985 in Elyria, Ohio."

For those of you who didn't go back 20-plus pages but were interested in that entire bag of 1928 Saint Double Eagles (250 of 'em) that got stolen from the Philadelphia Mint in 1933....that mini-Hoard reference above is VERY intriguing.

I know of no other hoard of DEs that was found in original bank bags (even the Wells Fargo 1908 No-Motto hoard had been re-bagged in the 1960's).