GoldFinger1969

On 12/26/2022 at 6:15 PM, Mike Kleinsmith said:

It just seems coin collecting for anyone just starting off like myself Is about as rigged as the federal reserve. 

This is a hobby, and the Fed controls the money supply. 

If you want rigged, join an off-shore oil crew. 

On 12/27/2022 at 7:08 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Further to my earlier reply, It seems I owe you a debt of gratitude for urging me to give HA a closer look.  I have no idea why that site stymied me off and on for years.  Everything is compartmentalized logically, and the filters work so well that it took me only seconds to realize my presence at NYINC is absolutely not required  No gold Roosters, period. I revisited my set registry at PCGS and reviewed the auction records provided on their site and realized something I only suspected.  Due (I suspect) to manpower shortages, the info compiled is sparce and so old that many coins bought years ago were acquired at below melt. 

I found more information on Roosters.....

On 12/26/2022 at 7:44 AM, olympicsos said:

It's the most well struck Walking Liberty Half you'll find. None of the Walking Liberty Halves in the original series come close to the detail found on the gold centennial issue. 

I'm not surprised, considering the improvements in technology in the 70 years since.  The digital enhancements, micro-lasers, all the other stuff used to make the models and then transfer it to the dies, etc....plus the improved striking accuracy and lower tolerances of the presses.

When you think about it, the quality of the coins in the late-1800's was kind of remarkable.

On 12/27/2022 at 8:40 PM, EagleRJO said:

I have been watching about a dozen Morgans very closely on GC, HA and eBay and the TPG labeled cleaned ones have been going for 2/3 to 3/4 of FMV.  50% might be a good target, but they just are not going for that lately. 

Those are actual SALES, Eagle, not asking prices ?

Interesting.....I'll have to check some of them out.  That's higher than I would have thought. 

On 12/27/2022 at 7:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Sorry for the confusion. Eagle RJO is correct,  I was working on Morgan but I was talking about key date in Peace set ( although I never mentioned it in this series of post). I didn't say but I can now  its the 1934-S. My original question was a general question, not a particular series or coin. I should have mentioned it was a key date though. Thanx for all the input.  PS: Don't judge me but I have a AU-55 already but I want a uncirculated set LOL -- Be gentle with responses  

No problem....I think my general rule of thumb is probably in the ballpark, but I'll defer to a Peace (or Morgan) dollar expert.   I do collect Morgans but don't have as much pricing knowledge there as with Saints and others.  I do believe the general principle on cleaned coins though applies to Morgans, Peace Dollars, etc.

It will certainly depend on the coin, the value if it wasn't cleaned/details graded, and the scarcity.  A Morgan with next-to-nothing in numismatic value (90% of the value being the silver) won't be hurt too much if it was cleaned.  One of those Carson City rarities in a high-grade (if not for the cleaning) will suffer alot price-wise.

I would guess (?) the same principle would apply to Peace Dollars but again, I'll let an expert chime in. 

On 12/27/2022 at 2:38 PM, EagleRJO said:

We are not talking about cleaned Saints.  From past discussions with LDH I believe we are talking about Morgans.  Each series of coins should be addressed separately.

I think others have used as a guide 50% of AU Morgan price for a cleaned/details coin that otherwise would be high-AU or even low-MS.

So....$500 coin if not cleaned, $250 cleaned.  That's what vets have posted in past years for Morgans (and other silver coins).

On 12/27/2022 at 2:24 PM, bstrauss3 said:

I wasn't a fan of the green when NTC used it. Still not. I get the white vs. black for gold, red copper, etc. But EVERYTHING looks TERRIBLE in puke-green.

The 2nd and 3rd Gen OGH by PCGS look kinda nice.  Folks want 'em.

I like NGC's modern black holders for modern gold including reverse proofs.  Nice contrast. 

On 12/27/2022 at 1:52 PM, EagleRJO said:

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

We're talking cleaned coins, right ?  The Details Saint coins have been cleaned and it's easy to see how much of the numismatic premium has been eliminated since you know the bullion value.

Granted, the OP deals with a different coin but same kind of analysis applied to other coins that have been cleaned and/or are Details with no grade.

Raw coin that you are certain has been cleaned probably a bigger discount.

Just curious....they have a 7th Edition of the Morgan RED BOOK out now, was wondering if anybody has that and an earlier version if much changed ? 

And I'm not expecting a complete re-write but was hoping it's a few pages longer and maybe even 1 new chapter, besides changes to prices and more recent sales commentaries.  

I have the 4th Edition and if I'm gonna re-read it, I might just get the new one.

Re-Reading Books:  Just wanted to say that there's something to say about going back and re-reading books you read before. 

As you spend more time in this hobby, stuff that you glossed over and maybe didn't really stand out will now be much clearer.  I skimmed some passages from Bowers' DE book....Roger's Saints book....and FMTM....DEFINITELY understood much more and retained alot more than when I read them all the first time 2-4 years ago. 

I've accumulated so much more information and knowledge and experience -- much of it from these forums -- that it makes reading the books much more enjoyable.  In many cases, I am getting more details on stuff I or others posted about here.

Hope to re-read all 3 of those books and maybe the Akers/Ambio book on gold coins in 2023. 

On 12/27/2022 at 9:21 AM, olympicsos said:

Because those are the ones that Barnes and Noble carries! 

Barnes and who ?  

On 12/27/2022 at 9:35 AM, VKurtB said:

I have about 50-60 rolls of assorted 35mm films in a freezer.

Why ?  Cold preserves film ?  Are they still making 35mm film ?

On 12/27/2022 at 7:53 AM, EagleRJO said:

That was addressing the OP's comments who stated ...  "PS: Please remember patience is not my strong suit in my OCD mind LOL".  The OP was previously advised by some that it's better to save up and put some more money into problem free coins.

I actually see some MCMVII HR's Details getting nice action compared to problem-free coins asking too much.

On 12/26/2022 at 6:36 PM, JKK said:

My general rule of thumb is that a light cleaning docks one grade in value, and a nasty cleaning docks it two.

I think it would also matter if the coin had bullion AND numismatic value, right JKK ?

On 12/26/2022 at 5:26 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Watch a restored version (Blue Ray) of "Out Of The Past" with Mitchum, Greer and Douglas (1947, B&W) and the clarity and depth damn near blew my eyes out of their sockets, it was amazing! The restored B&W films are well worth revisiting if you have the time.

They must be remastered or enhanced for TCM and other HD cable channels, right ?

On 12/26/2022 at 3:27 PM, RWB said:

There appears to be a continuing interest in film and home darkrooms. The range of products is small compared to the 1980s, and there's no product improvement pressure, but people continue to want hands-on control and the ability to "see' much deeper into a film negative than almost any digital image. I've mentioned before the old lunar photos made on film and their much superior tonal performance compared to "modern" NASA digital images.

Yes, I was surprised to learn that there is alot of richness in those old classic films we see on TCM and other stations.  The old films and CinemaScope and B&W and color films from the 1930's thru 1960's had lots of depth that doesn't lose much in resolution when you digitize it today.  You'd think it would be hard to go much over 480p with the old stuff but not so as I am told.

I guess a Blu-Ray of "The Wizard Of Oz" is as rich today compared to 4K or Hi-Def as it was back then compared to the prototype early TV sets or simple projectors used in theaters.

On 12/26/2022 at 3:31 PM, RWB said:

? Haven't seen that....or did I misread?

Page 5....."Roger W. Burdette, has provided much hitherto unseen information about the illustrious 1907 coinage of Augustus Saint-Gaudens, the making of the Ultra High Relief double eagle, the procedures for creating Proofs, and more, based on his own research and information from the National Archives."

On 12/26/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

Bowers' book were, and are, mostly assembled by assistants. 

He must be approaching 90 by now.  God Bless ! 

On 12/26/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

Bowers' book were, and are, mostly assembled by assistants. I've edited several and it's a well organized, efficient process.

You got Acknowledged in the Red Book with some detail and mentions of proofs, UHRs, and National Archive research.  And of course your own Red Book dealing with proofs. 

I guess it would depend on how the cleaned coin would grade if it hadn't been cleaned...the pricing for a coin 1 grade higher and/or lower....and then an appropriate discount.

I think the discount on the NUMISMATIC (not bullion) premium for Morgans and Saints that I've seen is usually 40-60%.  So a $12,000 Saint selling for $6,000 give-or-take.

On 12/26/2022 at 11:40 AM, zadok said:

...true but i liked it better when i was buying rolls of DE for $72 a pop....

I was too busy watching the original Scooby-Doo on Saturday mornings back then !! 

On 12/25/2022 at 4:48 PM, RWB said:

This is consistent with the Bowers book approach --. Nothing bad about it as long as one is looking for high-level "headline" context. Others prefer a more tightly focused approach, but -- heck, Bowers' books are good sellers....Most others aren't.

You nailed it....I just would have liked having updated information from his Whitman DE book at the front of each new chapter (year) similar to what you had in your Saints book with mintage, estimated MS and non-MS survivors, etc.  But they went with a different approach.

Since that part would have been mostly data-driven, I would think it could be done with minimal effort, maybe with staff help, as opposed to writing the prose for each year/chapter with 5-7 different sub-topics.

On 12/25/2022 at 12:46 PM, zadok said:

...i see nothing adverse with flat prices on virtually anything...its called stability....

But nothing with monetary value stays unchanged for long periods of time...except currencies in a fixed-exchange rate regime. 

On 12/26/2022 at 7:40 AM, Zebo said:

Go for it - it’s a good series to collect.

But require$$$$$$$ something to do it. 

LIBERTY DOUBLE EAGLE BASICS:  Just under 103 MM Liberty DEs were struck (102,801,420) with 142 different years and mint marks.   This compares to 53 varieties for the Saint-Gaudens series (including the MCMVII UHR and 1933 but not the 1909/08 overdate) which had just over 70 MM coins struck.

Saints were struck for 26 years (but off for WW I); Liberty's for 58 years. 

I believe the surviving coins for Saints was just over 3.7 MM (I'm travelling, so don't have my trusty RWB Saints bible with me if I'm off on the Saint numbers  ).   Here's where it gets interesting.....for survivors, if you use Bower's upper-end of his estimate for total Field Population (which dwarfed the numbers for Certified in his 2004 book), you have over 5 million Liberty Double Eagles in AU and lower grades (5,153,067) and just over 1 million in Mint State (1,156,564).

If you go by the latest population census by PCGS and NGC....you have 755,082 and 772,203 grading events respectively (total = 1,527,285).....estimate out the resubmissions from NGC holders at 40% and you have 1,218,404.

Net-Net:  Lots of Liberty DEs graded and probably many more out there.  If I had the time, a good experiment would be to add up Bower's Field Population for the Saint-Gaudens in his 2004 book....compare it to the PCGS/NGC Certified Population in 2004 at that time.....THEN....compare those to the actual Certified Population in 2022.  That would give you an indication of how many more actual verified graded events have transpired in 18 years for the Saints and see if directionally it's similar for Liberty DEs.