GoldFinger1969

Oh I see...it was ShelHarby.....yeah, I didn't notice the link, Bob. 

Actually, her post had some good points but again it doesn't matter since this isn't a debate on crypto or BitCoin...but on fraud committed by Alameda, FTX, and SBF.  

On 1/6/2023 at 9:52 AM, Just Bob said:

Just so you know: Whenever you respond to a new poster who includes a link to a website related to the subject matter, you are almost always responding to a spammer or spambot. Chances are that they will never respond, or even return to the thread, since the only reason for their post is to attract clicks to the linked site.

Thanks Bob.....I'm not sure WHEN in this thread that occurred, but even spamsters here can start useful/relevant threads.

This thread is of interest to the NGC Forum people....and as crypto is competition for gold, it's relevant, too.

Thanks for your feedback !  

Some of these shows just have the most popular coins, often bullion or quasi-bullion.  If you are into more exotic or rare coins like Flying Cents or Gold Dollars or whatnot, the smaller shows have very little there.  You will find tons of Morgans and some with gold coins including Saints and Liberty DEs.

Remember, it takes time for them to pack up stuff and put it into cases.  They can tell what sells or gets inquiries and if they bring a case of a certain coins and they NEVER get asked about the stuff in it, they're not gonna keep bringing it.

Usually, it's low-to-moderately priced stuff.  Althought at the monthly Parsippany/Garden State Coin Show I saw a guy who had 2 beautiful coins -- I think both were MCMVII High Relief Saints -- and I recall they were pricey but can't remember if they were raw or certified.  But I recall that they belonged to a client or client's family that FOUND them somewhere in their farmhouse in Nebraska or something like that....in other words, long-lost coins.

Damn, I wish I had taken pics (maybe I did ?  Gotta go back at least 4 years in my phone to see) or remembered who it was.  Maybe if I go out to the show again I can find the dealer.

On 1/6/2023 at 7:42 AM, J P M said:

He asked me what I thought and I said the new slabs with the corner pins show the coin nicer.It was a bit scratchy and the soap bar look overpowers the coin a bit compared to its size. Before I could make him a offer he took the slab and a pair of cutters and snapped it out of the holder. I said wow that was quick and he said I trust your judgment as a collector and I will get the same or a better price for it without the slab. So Yes ,,People remove coins from slabs all the time even professionals. 

I dislike that solid soap bar holder, too.  Probably one of my least-favorite holders.  The newer NGC holders are great, but prongs for me are a MUST as I hate having the sides of the coin totally obscured by solid material.

Also, while I acknowledge some people cracking out here-and-there (especially for higher grades or even LOWER grades with a CAC)....it's the exception not the rule. 

On 1/5/2023 at 4:44 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I finally found a local coin club that I never knew existed. They are having a coin show in the next county over from me. I seen pictures from the last one they had. Prob wasnt but 4 dealers.

I live in the NYC Metro area and even some of the coin shows around here that are weekly/monthly are very small -- like 5-12 dealers.  Waste of time -- MAYBE 1 or 2 deal in coins (the rest stamps or sports cards).  I've driven 2 hours round-trip to these shows and spent 5 minutes at the show itself. 

It's the quarterly shows that attract from a much wider regional dealership that are in a nicer hotel (instead of a VFW Hall) that will get you up to 20-40 dealers and be worth it.  Ditto the Big Regionals like the Bay State or Whitman Baltimore or the nationals like FUN/Long Beach/ANA.

I think with the internet/Ebay/HA/GC....folks no longer have to hit all the LCS's and small coin shows like they did 20-30 years ago.  They can save time and $$$ by shopping/bidding online and just goto a larger coin show to satisfy their hunger or find a special coin.

On 1/5/2023 at 4:34 PM, zadok said:

...actually many of the rarities were "piggy-backed" on the Menjou name n many of the common coins were his...i do recall that some portion of the gold coins u r interested in were his?...i do have the same copy that u have n have used it in my tracking of various coins that i am interested in....

Supposedly he had 150 of the MCMVII High Relief Saints.....I've also never seen any label with his name on it, maybe more famous people who picked up his coins got theirs on the labels instead. 

What exactly was the purpose of that stupid plastic token in the plastic wrap ?  

On 1/5/2023 at 2:17 PM, Sandon said:

@EagleRJO--The GSA Carson City silver dollars were sorted into two groups. Although nearly all were uncirculated, those that were considered to have too many scratches and other abrasions or to be too "tarnished" were culled out and except for the 1878-CCs sold in hard GSA holders lettered with "CARSON CITY SILVER DOLLAR" instead of "CARSON CITY UNCIRCULATED SILVER DOLLAR".  Whereas in the 1972-74 sales 1882, 83, and 84-CC dollars in the holders marked "UNCIRCULATED" were initially sold for the minimum bids of $30 each and 1880, 81, and 1885-CC dollars in those holders for $60 each, all of the coins that were in the other holders were sold as "Mixed Years" for $15 or so each.  (Some of the later sales realized somewhat higher prices.) These "Mixed Years" coins were mostly 1882, 83, and 84-CCs but also included over 58,000 1880, 81 and 85-CCs, and several hundred each of the more valuable 1879, 90, and 91-CCs!  All told, 2,123,857 "CC" dollars were sold as "Uncirculated" and 687,956 as "Mixed Years". Some coins in the "Mixed Years" holders have since received higher MS grades than some in the "UNCIRCULATED" holders.   Before the GSA sales the 1878-CC was considered the most common (and least expensive) "CC" dollar. The 13,426 1878-CCs that were culled out due to abrasions and tarnish were placed in GSA "soft pack" holders along with over 84,000 circulated or culled non-CC silver dollars of various dates and sold, as I recall, for $4 each.  The GSA sold an additional mixed 27,980 non-CC silver dollars in hard GSA holders like the 1885 in your photo lettered with "UNITED STATES UNCIRCULATED SILVER DOLLAR".  Source: Van Allen & Mallis, Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars (3d ed. 1991), pp. 399-400.  

So during the original sales...the government knew about valuable years and mintmarks and raised the prices accordingly ? 

On 1/5/2023 at 1:12 PM, Sandon said:

I know an advanced collector who has purchased four figure coins that have been certified and cracked them out to put in albums. I also know a dealer who refers to slabs as "coin prisons".

I cannot believe any "advanced collector" does that.   As Estelle Costanza would sady.....it's INSANITY !!! 

On 1/5/2023 at 1:12 PM, Sandon said:

 A significant number of collectors continue to dislike the appearance and bulk of certified holders and prefer to collect uncertified coins and display and store them in albums and Lucite frames or other plastic holders. I dislike them myself but consider certification a necessary evil for more valuable or very high-grade coins.

Whatever one thinks of the grade or the aesthetics....the modern holders are THE BEST for preserving a coin.  As one veteran collector/dealer said....every time an expensive coin travelled to FUN or Long Beach in a 2x2...it picked up hairlines.

On 1/5/2023 at 1:00 PM, World Colonial said:

I believe most if not all of the coins you specifically listed most collectors (including you) will consider "rare" and if not, certainly "scarce". It's an inference only but maybe as opposed to now and recently where estimates are intentionally low, it was set too high.  Or another reason is that they just didn't know due to lack of data and a less predictable sales history.

If you haven't seen this catalog it's about 125 pages long.  Sometimes a page has 2-4 items listed when there is a pricey coin with a description of a few paragraphs....other times, it's just 20-25 rows of inexpensive small denomination coins costing about $10-$15 on average.

All stuff I never had interest in :  Flying Eagle Cents.....Gold Dollars....Carson City dimes....etc...etc...etc.  As Roger and others said, in retrospect, it's clear that the bulk or most of this stuff was owned by others who "piggy-backed" on the Menjou name to more easily sell their coins.

The total raised was just under $135,000....I'll guestimate about 1,500 to 2,000 individual items auctioned off.

1802 Half Dime Listing In 1950 Menjou Catalog:  "The Excessively Rare 1902 Half Dime....The 1802 half dime is one of the prizes of American Numismatics.  There are said to be only 16 pieces known and many leading collections appear on the market lacking this coin.  As early as 1907 a specimen in very fine condition brought over $700.00 and an equally fine coin is still difficult to obtain.  In fact, the Standard Catalogue does not value the type for better than fine in which condition it is listed at $500.00.  This particular specimen may easily be called very fine; the date, stars and lettering are all perfectly clear with the obverse a bit stronger than the reverse.  The popularity of this coin should send it over"

He meant over the $750 price I presume.  In fact, the Estimate listed was $750 but the Selling Price came in at $425.

I noticed that lots of coins, except for a few higher-priced coins and gold rarities, sold for LESS than the estimated price (not surprising, sellers are prone to give high estimates).  I didn't tabulate, but actual Selling Prices above the Estimates were definitely fewer than vice-versa.

On 1/5/2023 at 11:24 AM, World Colonial said:

The grades weren't stated, so without this info, probably the Liberty Head gold, 1819 half eagle, and 1802 half dime are five figures.

1950 auction.....36 years before the TPGs started.

Grading Of The WF Hoard:  I just realized that I have NEVER seen a definitive statement on whether all or just some of the 19,900 Wells Fargo Saints were graded and certified.

My understanding was that ALL were graded as the numismatic premium plus the Wells Fargo pedigree made it worthwhile to grade them all, even those below Gem Quality (MS-65).  But based on the numbers I see for MS65-69 coins....and a statement that of the "graded" coins only 1 was below MS-65 (a sole MS-63), I'm not sure.

The statement ATS implies that of about 9,000 that were SUBMITTED FOR GRADING, only one was an MS-63.  It doesn't say out of the entire 19,900 that only 1 coin was graded as such.

In other words....I can't tell if about 10,000 coins were clearly circulated (I don't know why half would be circulated and the other half pristine) and not worthy of being submitted for grading.  If you knew a coin was going to get an AU grade or even a grade from MS60-62, maybe you held it out.

Does anybody active in coins in the 1990's recall if they graded all the coins or only a part of them ? 

On 1/5/2023 at 7:57 AM, J P M said:

I think what VKurtB said is relevant if he is taking a certified coin and removing it from it's holder. Others may do the same thing and that would change the numbers in the future. If the coins get graded and end up in someone else's collection   

Why would someone remove a cetified coin from the holder ?

Pleads Not Guilty.....

https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/01/04/why-did-sam-bankman-fried-plead-not-guilty/

Basically, until the 1850's from what I read (maybe a few years or a decade or two earlier with the transition)....lots of foreign coins, especially gold coins, were basically accepted and traded and used in the U.S.

Spanish doubloons, British gold/silver, etc. 

Seems like about the 1830's the U.S. started to steal-back market share.....and then when the Double Eagle and California Gold Rush hit, all the U.S. gold coins really took off.  By the late-1800's, I doubt anybody NOT using paper money was eschewing U.S. gold or silver coins for foreign.

Wow.....Frank Reynolds...and the 3-headed ABC World News Tonight.....interesting, up to 1981 apparently half the demand had to be met by recycling old silver.....and that 65 million ounces for photography is probably down to 5 million today. 

That cigar box looks like the kind I used to see around my grandparents in the 1960's and 1970's.....might even date to earlier. 

On 1/4/2023 at 12:54 PM, VKurtB said:

We CAN know how many submissions have been made. The top two firms brag on that incessantly. But how many coins they actually represent? Dream on. Unknowable. Every time I crack out a coin to place in my son’s literal Dansco 7070 album, the label gets taped onto the inside back cover, not reported to the TPGS. I also put together a 5-coin Morgan dollar “one per mint” set (P, D, S, O, CC) all in mint state in a Capitol Plastics holder. Two of those are crack outs, too. The labels are right there between the two lucite covers. 

I'm talking knowing the parameters of high-quality coins for the type.  Nobody is concerned with Dansco or Capitol coins unless they have the only remaining members of a total population of a few dozen or few hundred.

Read the Winter article.  If we know if a coin series is 65% graded or 90% graded, that's enough.

On 1/4/2023 at 8:28 PM, World Colonial said:

 I commented earlier but missed this post.  This is quite interesting.  My understanding is that someone (I think the author of the die variety reference) identified 35-40 specific coins, in 1935 or near it.  Not sure how this reconciles to the comments in this catalog.

I'll check my catalog and if there's more "meat" I left out, post it verbatim here.

Off the top of your head....all those quotes and sales prices we both referenced...that was from 1950....where would most of them be today ?  10-fold increase.....100-fold increase ?

From the CDN Monthly Greysheet, thought this would be of interest to some of you.  It's from December 2018:

https://www.greysheet.com/news/story/a-lighter-shade-of-grey-1960s-silver-dollar-hoard-holds-bagfuls-of-memories

If anybody wants to see the article in question from Doug Winter...it's called "What Percentage of Classic Rare U.S. Coins Have Been Graded by the Services?"  dated February 2013

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog?offset=1365440715000&category=Market+Blog

Scroll down about half-way to get to the article. 

Probably deserves it's own thread....

On 1/4/2023 at 12:19 PM, VKurtB said:

You are seeking information that can never be accurately found. Between crossovers and resubmissions, and tight-lipped collectors, it can never be known. The crack out culture is far more prevalent than you could ever imagine. 

I'm not looking for perfection, just some guideposts and numbers that are within the ballpark, instead of out in the fringes of the auxillary parking lot. 

On 1/4/2023 at 7:11 AM, ShelHarby said:

There are only so-called cryptocurrency exchanges where all transactions with this type of asset occur. However, these structures cannot influence the rate of this cryptocurrency. Based on this, it is wrong to say that bitcoin is a scam.

Yes, I think most people understand that what happened with FTX and SBF was fraud and could have happened with ANY asset class.  The fact that it happened with an unregulated, uncharacterized coin/token/security/commodity is irrelevant.

In theory, co-mingling and fraud/theft can happen with blue-chip dividend-paying stocks. 

But it doesn't...... 

On 1/3/2023 at 11:45 AM, VKurtB said:

The ANA is NOT A TRADE GROUP!!!!! Some people think it should be, but they’re wrong. 

Whatever they are, they represent numismatists, dealers, etc.....they can certainly start to provide useful information.

I was reading an article by Doug Winter from almost 10 years ago...even a well-connected guy like him had to guestimate and speculate on how many coins have been graded since the start of the TPGs.  We may not have exact numbers, but we should have SOME foundations upon which to work with.