GoldFinger1969

Got the Stacks/Bowers Liberty Double Eagle book today.....it's in GREAT shape, basically new except for a slight tear on the book jacket (who cares).

The book is definitely worth what I paid for it but different than I thought. What Bowers/Galiette do is a year-by-year history of the country dealing with major historical events (Civil War, opening of Carson City Mint, etc.) . But it does NOT have a year-by-year detailed analysis on that year's Liberty DE like Roger Burdette's book on Saint-Gaudens DEs does. For $20, it's definitely worth it to me.  For $300, it wouldn't be.  Probably not even at $100. It is on fine glossy paper and well-bound, I must say.  

Every chapter corresponds to a year from 1849 (The Gold Rush) to 1907 (End of the Liberty DE, Hello to the Saint-Gaudens DE).

Typical Yearly Chapter: Numismatic news on coins or paper currency....economic or business happenings, like with Standard Oil....details on the dies being sent to the variou Mints....any changes (i.e, Types 1, 2, 3).....coin collector and numismatic commentaries for that year....plus a picture of that year's coin which can be either small or full-page.

If you have a chance to get this book on the cheap, definitely a beautiful coffee table book (tell Kramer ! ) or reference book.

On 12/22/2022 at 6:51 PM, simonharison said:

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You're not "investing" in crypto....you're SPECULATING or GAMBLING in crypto.  It is NOT investing !!! 

It's like saying you're going to "invest" in the Zimbabwe dollar ! 

On 12/22/2022 at 9:59 PM, Sandon said:

   The "star" grade, which is only used by NGC and is not part of the ANA grading system, when used on proofs, appears to be applied to coins that are one-sided cameos (or deep cameos), as there isn't enough room on the little paper grading service tag to say that the coin is a "deep cameo obverse, brilliant reverse", or the like.  The original poster suggests that a one-sided cameo (or deep cameo) is better than a two-sided cameo or deep cameo.  Assuming, as most collectors do, that a cameo is better than a non-cameo and that a deep cameo is better than a cameo, this position is illogical. For that matter, so is the fad of "low ball" collecting in which some collectors compete to own the most worn coin possible! Collect what you want, but just because it's unusual or "low population" in a certified holder doesn't mean it's really desirable or that most collectors will accept it as such.

Seems like the star grade means exceptional eye appeal or the like, no ?

On 12/22/2022 at 8:49 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive over paid a few times to get a coin I really wanted. If I ever upgrade a few of those Ill probably never get back what I paid neither. 

Think about this, Hog.....how long did it take you to find that coin that you really liked/loved online ?  How tiring was it to click the mouse you are using right now ?

Now...imagine having to drive to 2 or 3 more local coin shops (LCS)....attend a small regional coin show....call a few dealers....go to some further LCS at least 1 hour away....maybe 2 hours.....and then you get the same coin, a few weeks or months or even a year later, for maybe 10-15% less.

Maybe !! 

On 12/22/2022 at 11:19 PM, EagleRJO said:

I see that now, but still $1,443 reserve?  Must be what they want plus the GC fees.

Don't forget, Carson City is RED HOT.....folks want it.  It signifies the Old West.

On 12/22/2022 at 4:12 PM, jimbo27 said:

NGC price guide for 1880/79 cc GSA MS63 is $1100, you are looking at 1880 cc is why it's so low.

Yes, that's what I saw...that's a pretty big differentiator, the overdate. 

Eagle, does NGC list a price for the overdate ?  PCGS ?

I think with PCGS and NGC at the top....with CAC grading the graders and now getting into grading themselves....I just think we're covered enough.

NOBODY is going to be happy with 100% of what we have.  If purists are happy, then dealers and collectors won't be...and vice-versa.  Get rid of all the labeling and marketing and specialization, and folks with special coins will be unhappy.  

I guess the bottom line on Breen is he did some phenomenal work...but he also cut corners at other times....which means you don't know what was legit, what was questionable, and what was 100% made up.

Avoid high reserves.  Set the price to get bids, below FMV, if not $1 or $2 as I sometimes see.

Is it a print or a mouse pad ?  I can't tell.

If he does Double Eagles, I'm interested. 

On 12/21/2022 at 7:06 PM, Sandon said:

I'm not sure to what post in this topic this inquiry relates.  St. Gaudens double eagles aren't usually collected by die pairs or states, although they are known to exhibit die cracks.  I've never seen one with clash marks, but they probably exist. Clash marks occur on coins minted to this day, although they aren't as common as they were on older series.

Thanks for the info, Sandon....I have actually been reading about Liberty Double Eagles of late (gonna be meeting a few friends/relatives who collect over the Holidays and wanted to be able to converse with them ) and it was regarding shipwrecked vs. non-shipwrecked coin surfaces on some Liberty DEs:

"....I don’t believe that the original surface coins are from a different die pair than the seawater coins; just a different die state."

Can someone expound on "die pair vs. die state" ?

On 12/18/2022 at 9:47 AM, RWB said:

Keep sending it in until you get the grade your want. Do they tell you the differences between 66+ and 67 --- I'll wager "No." It's also likely they can't differentiate between the two better than 50% -- mere coin flipping (pun intended).

So why even come up with the "+" or star designations in the first place ?  You'd have LESS gradeflation if there no plusses, IMO.  Much easier to upgrade a 66+ than a 66.

On 12/21/2022 at 11:50 AM, World Colonial said:

The 1857-S is now a hoard coin.  I don't remember when SS Central America supply became available.  Admitting a hoard coin lost value is hardly an example of objectivity. I haven't read his website commentary, though I presume it's the same as Coin Week.  I can't imagine he writes different material for both. I can't say he's never expressed a non-positive opinion on any coin, but it's not going to be often.  Look, I wouldn't expect him to do it.  He's in the business of selling coins.  Same thing for the hyperbole expressed by other dealers.  I just ignore what I consider to be marketing.

The SSCA coins came out about  2000-2003.  The 1857-S really opened up the Type 1 Double Eagle market as lots of people wanted an 1857-S and if they did get one (or not) they learned about other Type 1's (and 2s, and 3s, and even probably Saints) and branched out.  This is how I got interested in the SSCA and later bought a re-strike (should have paid more for an actual coin  ).

The 1857-S showed in some rare instances that a new amount of supply CAN create demand and spur interest in that coin as well as others.

I think what has hurt pricing since then isn't the supply, it was just that the coins got ahead of themselve and the premium valuations had to come down a bit.

FYI....looks like the lowest-price Ebay 1908 Wells Fargo No Motto (with or without OGH and/or CAC) asks are about 20% above what completed sales go for at HA and GC even after fees.

On 12/21/2022 at 1:43 PM, RWB said:

Nice find!

Thanks Roger....I could be wrong, but this looks more like a coffee table book with glossy pics rather than one with extensive research.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Whatever, the price was right.

If it IS a coffee table book, maybe I'll reach out to Kramer.....

On 12/21/2022 at 1:43 PM, RWB said:

Do you realize that the used book allows you to evaluate only circulated, "used," coins.....? 

On 12/21/2022 at 2:41 PM, disme said:

Prior to that the Mint had asked one of our mutual friends (Harry Forman) to find out what I knew so that it could counter my testimony; Harry called to tell me and he thought it was funny. 

Yeah, I saw postings by folks on other forums that they had Mint/Treasury investigators calling on their ex-wives, neighbors, co-workers, etc...for any dirt on them (them being folks who I believe were going to be called to testify or submit evidence on behalf of the Langbords).

On 12/21/2022 at 2:41 PM, disme said:

After the auction I was told by one of the defense attorneys that I could not publish what I had found (the Froman letter, for example) as I might be facing a lawsuit. I published anyway, in the Numismatic News noted above. Because of this dispute I was not involved when the Langbords found the 10 extra pieces. 

Why would YOU be facing a lawsuit -- for uncovering evidence that was already made public ?  I never heard of that.  Who would be suing you, the Mint/Treasury or the defense people ?  Unreal......

I am not a lawyer but it seems weird that something mentioned in a trial could not be published after the fact.  Unless the (defense attorneys/Langbords) considered it "their property."

Glad I didn't go to law school....

On 12/21/2022 at 1:37 PM, RWB said:

The continued sequestration of Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine (by Amos Media) is a major research impediment and (my opinion) a personal slap-in-the-face of Mr. J.

I'm unaware of this...NSM is not making their archives/copies of their magazine available to numismatists and/or researchers ?

On 12/21/2022 at 10:26 AM, disme said:

The 1933 Froman letter was discovered in the DC archives in March 1996. It was first published in Numismatic News, issue of October 1, 2002. 

Awesome !!  Thanks, Disme ! 

Did it get any publicity when found in 1996 ?  Probably not, as the whole saga with the 1933 DEs hadn't started yet.

On 12/20/2022 at 8:58 PM, RWB said:

The are no digital archives for this stuff, and certainly nothing with key words. I found it by following the trail of evidence to a nondescript folder. It helps to have a general idea of what subject you are looking for ("Double eagles" 1933, 1945, USSS, etc.), then you go in and start requesting boxes and volumes that come close to those subjects. Most results are useless on one things but might be good on another, so I copy almost everything.

Fascinating....I commend you on your dilligence.  Some of the stuff you find is really interesting...obscure but interesting ....and obviously that Bartholomew Letter which advanced the striking date by 13 days was CRITICAL. 

Just the fact that the other side didn't even know it while talking about their "spectacular record-keeping" shows they have egg on their face. 

On 12/20/2022 at 9:02 PM, RWB said:

Metal crystals move and deform differently under different conditions.

Metal press or Medal press ?   I've seen both on this forum.

If it IS "medal" press I presume it was used primarily for all the commemorative medals they struck. 

Or maybe not....

On 12/20/2022 at 9:34 PM, World Colonial said:

I've read Doug Winter's articles on Coin Week but never on anything other than US classic gold.  The 1870-CC DE and 1875 eagle are somewhat well-known rarities in US collecting (mostly from the Red Book).  Usually, he writes about low mintage dates or dates with relatively low survivorship which he considers underpriced.  Much of his presentation is based upon the TPG label and he's also big on CAC stickers since both are a big financial driver.

Mostly, I have never read him give an actual reason why these coins should be worth substantially more.  Since he writes on so many coins, apparently, he thinks all of these should be worth (a lot) more.  On any list of potential "trophy" US coins that should or deserve to sell for a lot more, mine will have little if any overlap with his.

He says that many coins are overpriced, including ones he bid on but dropped out.

He wrote a really good piece a year ago that revisited a column he wrote in 2010.  Basically, he went over what he said at the time and checked how accurate his comments were.  I personally LOVE columns like this, they serve as a kind of Truth-O-Meter on your posts.

Here's what he wrote on the 1857-S in 2010 and then again in 2021:

1857-S/2010: The discovery of more than 5,000 high quality examples on the S.S. Central America is what really jump-started the market for Type One double eagles. There are hundreds of collectors who started out buying a single Uncirculated 1857-S and then became hooked by the Type One series. I've noted some confusion about proper valuation for these coins. As an example, there is a CDN Bid of $7,200 for MS64 examples. This bid represents the value of a coin in a gold foil holder with the original box. An NGC MS64, which is clearly a coin that was broken out of a PCGS holder and likely upgraded, is worth less than this; in some cases as much as 10%. As a collector, if you pay a strong retail price for an Uncirculated 1857-S double eagle, try to be patient and wait for a nice quality piece in the original PCGS holder.

1857-S/2021:  I can’t add much to what I wrote 10 years ago about this date. It is interesting to look at very high-grade SSCA 1857-S double eagles. In 2010 a CAC approved PCGS MS66 in its original packaging would have cost around $35,000. Today, a similar coin would cost around $30,000. There haven’t been a ton of PCGS/CAC MS67s which have sold, but the most recent APR was just $96,000; down considerably from a 2014 auction record of $152,750 and even $120,000 in January 2020. A remarkable $282,000 was paid for a wildly toned PCGS/CAC MS67 in May 2019. In my opinion, this was a huge overpay for a coin which I felt, at the time, was worth around $150,000. 

Complete article here:

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/articles/san-fsan-francisco-double-eagles-a-date-by-date-analysis-part-one

On 12/20/2022 at 4:48 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I've read a lot of stuff from Doug Winters over the years about Saints,

I've followed him for a few years....he talks about Double Eagles (more Liberty's than Saints) but he seems to really save the bulk of his commentaries for Southern Gold coins and gold coins smaller than double eagles. 

That was the first column solely on Saints/High Reliefs (as opposed to mentioning them in a blended article) that I can remember in years. 

Doug Winter, from his blog piece on The Million Dollar Liberty Eagle:

"...Before the Trophy Coin Era (which really began in earnest around 2020), the price of rare coins went up incrementally. A coin like an AU 1875 eagle was worth $150k in the 2000s, $250k in the early 2010s, and $350k in the early 2020s. Given its price history, one would have expected the next price increment for this date to have been $450k (maybe even $500k) in 2022. But this isn’t how values work today, and as a result we have yet another record price which is multiples higher than the previous peak of $372,000.

I will freely admit that I was stunned by the price."