GoldFinger1969

I see that the 62nd HR ball hit by Aaron Judge just sold for $1.5 MM.  The holder was offered $3 MM back in September in a private transaction but thought he could get more $$$ via a public auction.

WRONG !!  

As AI and scanning technology improves I will bet that it will be possible to scan and grade coins within a few seconds using cameras, lasers, etc.  If you did sufficient volume, the cost-per-coin should be relatively cheap, too. 

We may see a CAC-like service in the future that is 100% computerized and either re-grades coins or affirms them with something like the CAC sticker.

Super Expensive GSAs:  Just wondering for those of you more familiar with high-end (GSA) Morgans....are there many that sell for 5-figures and up ?

I saw one the other day up for sale and bidding was over $20,000....was just clicking around, trying to re-find it now....I believe it was an MS-67 CAC DMPL coin, not sure what year or if it was CC or not.

Got me wondering what the most expensive GSAs might sell for.

On 12/18/2022 at 10:58 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

These MS-67 grades routinely pull in over $1,000.  You're probably right, the + may very well supersede professional analysis, except for one small problem.  Somewhere along the way----nobody I am aware of is similarly afflicted----I just can't see myself as going on record that de-slabbing is an incredibly rude sacrilege, and just bring myself to do it. It is a character defect I haven't been able to account for.

Well, in the other thread on Franklins we have the anomaly of lots of 66+ coins selling for LESS than 66's even without FBL.  

Old-timers may also have a soft-spot for the 67 grade since that is the Superb Gem Level and for most of us the highest grade we can afford (assuming many are available to make it affordable) if we do want a coin in that grade.

On 12/18/2022 at 9:47 AM, RWB said:

Keep sending it in until you get the grade your want. Do they tell you the differences between 66+ and 67 --- I'll wager "No." It's also likely they can't differentiate between the two better than 50% -- mere coin flipping (pun intended).

Hopefully with microchips in the holders and the ability to use Hi-Def scans to ID specific coins.....that will soon be greatly reduced. 

BTW, if anybody wants to see that 1908 NM WF MS-66 OGH CAC zoomed-in....I just noticed the pics I attached for size-reasons are not enlarging on my PC. 

If that is the case with yours, you can find the larger ones on the Wells Fargo Thread....or I can post them here, too.

On 12/17/2022 at 8:11 PM, zadok said:

...yes to question number 1...number 2, no...its the absence of a planchet in between....

Thanks Zad.......that makes it clearer.  I guess today's machines will NOT strike if they detect no planchet (metal) in between the dies, huh ?  The machines couldn't do that 100+ years ago I guess.

Why would you use sawdust to do that ? Why not clean, hospital-like linens or cloth or paper ?

What would they use today -- microfiber towels ?

On 12/17/2022 at 6:57 PM, Mikeu78 said:

Why do I have graded washington quarters that don't say type b and they are B 1956 -1964 

What's the "B" stand for ?

On 12/17/2022 at 5:09 PM, World Colonial said:

There is/are also one or two threads about the sale of some FBL Franklin half for $150K+ (mentioned in one of my prior posts on another thread) which I recall later resold for $40K+. 

Wow, unreal.  That looks like the kind of bubble price spike you see with some "First Strike" coins like the 1995-W ASE which went for $86,000 and now pretty much they go for under $20,000.

On 12/17/2022 at 5:09 PM, World Colonial said:

It's a relatively shallow market at this price range for this series.  If you remember my thread covering the relative ranking by price tier from the Heritage archives, between $10K and $50K, Franklin half circulation strikes rank #80 out of 108.

Now that you mention it, I do.  That was some great work you did.

I guess you figure that the folks who play in that rarified atmosphere of Top Pop Registry coins can afford to lose if the coins suddenly have company and their Top 3 or Top 5 suddenly becomes Top 10 or Top 20.

On 12/17/2022 at 1:57 PM, RWB said:

That is the fundamental question. With no standard, no consistency, and pervasive slippage, collectors receive only a temporary and unstable opinion for their money.

I don't think this is a question of those things, Roger.  This is just pure greed and sleaze.  You almost wish Ebay had an automatic limiter that said you can't ask more than 5-10x the most recent sales price for a comparable coin.

I can live with a guy overcharging on the ask price because the coin has other qualities that maybe the TPG didn't see.  I can live with a coin that is a 66 TPG-wise but the seller says is certainly a 67 (maybe it is, maybe it isn't).  I can live with someone asking $400 for a coin worth $250.

But I can't bridge any gap to a coin worth $300 give-or-take and the seller is asking 5-figures.  Unless it's to find that person I hypothesized above who thinks if he gets it for a few thousand dollars he thinks he got a steal.

It would be a steal.  For the seller !! 

On 12/17/2022 at 12:22 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Exactly. Thats what caught my eye in that listing. Thats why I posted it to have a little fun with it. I got a good little laugh out of it when I came across it last night. Just wanted to share it with people who were interested in it last night. Maybe a new collector will see this post and see what kind of sellers are out there. 

We can laugh at it...but someone just starting out in this hobby who THINKS he knows the Franklin price market from years ago can be hurt financially or just emotionally even if they "steal" the coin for $2,000. 

You get burned like that, you don't know who to trust.

On 12/17/2022 at 12:00 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I may have missed something myself and was quick to post on it last night. If I did I apoligize and would like to learn the truth.  

Not only did you NOT miss anything, Hog, you actually uncovered what happens at the intersection of hobbyists, grade kinks, price kinks and registry players...combined with Ebay pricing stupidity.

Someone will offer the guy $3,000....they'll negotiate....and the buyer will think he got a great deal at $4,500. 

On 12/17/2022 at 11:59 AM, robec1347 said:

There was also an NGC 66+FBL that sold in May 2020 for $52,800 with the fees. Even in MS63 a 1953-S with FBL sells for over $17,000.  The PCGS MS66 53-S sold this month for $1359 wasn’t FBL.

So clearly....it's the FBL that will determine if you get the Big Buck$$$.

I guess you can have an MS-66 or even MS-67 coin and yet NOT have FBL....you would think that not having FBL would limit you and if you only have 1 or 2 lines of the FBL that maybe you can't get over a 64 or whatever.

It's almost like the FBL is an additional grade being reflected in the $$$ price. 

ROBEC: "One oddity concerns the price difference between the MS66 and MS66+ non FBL. There are 6 of each listed in the GC archive. With the exception of one 66+, which sold for $853, all six 66’s sold for more than every other 66+. Even the lowest priced 66 sold for more than the 2nd highest 66+." 

That's beyond weird ....unless all the 66's have more lines of the Liberty Bell than the 66+ coins.  I've never heard of 66+ costing LESS than 66's from the same TPG unless a coin or two was grossly misgraded or someone bid stupidly. 

But you said ALL 6 coins. 

On 12/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, numisport said:

One offered right now at David Lawrence for bidding starting at 28K. Do you think it merits MS 65 ? Do you think it merits FBL ?  Given that the coin hasn't sold yet is it fair to comment ?

Is it graded ?  Is it an MS-65 FBL ?

On 12/17/2022 at 10:44 AM, Simple Collector said:

So. Which grades are correct? I see a couple also had cac stickers prior to regrade.

You're asking the wrong guy.   I am not an expert or even knowledgeable about Franklin pricing, just fascinated by the thread itself and what happened to these top registry players.

I just know prices should NOT rise or fall for the same coin by 80-1,000%.  Not unless NEW SUPPLY comes out from hoards, SDBs, slow trickles, etc.

On 12/17/2022 at 2:46 PM, RWB said:

Dollar varieties had been identified by collectors for many years. There are occasional articles in hobby publications. Seven and eight tail feather coins were identified in 1878.  Van Allen and Mallis, took things further (following examples such as Crosby, Sheldon, etc.) and compiled both background and detailed listings of individual varieties. Some varieties have become popular and bring significant premiums. But most are barely distinguishable and not very interesting to any but hard-core aficionados. As authors of initial research or variety book often do, they used their initials "VAM" to differentiate their varieties from those identified by others. "VAM" varieties caught on among Morgan and Peace dollar collectors because the coins were cheap, widely distributed, and readily available over a long span of time. The "system" itself, is something of a cobbled mess with pieces added and removed almost ad hoc.

If the Morgan afficianados like it, who am I to tell them it's a waste or not worth it ?  But some of the varieties do tend to deal in minutae.

But hey...anything that keeps interest in the hobby I'm all for it.  

On 12/17/2022 at 4:03 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Will I forgo NYINC?  It'll all boil down to whim.  I even have a strategy frequent show-goers may find off-putting:  Arming myself and my quiet-as-a-church house mouse with a photograph of a F20FGR, and a simple query:  Top-Pops, Yes? or No? Simple.

As it is looking unlikely I can get down to FUN 2023, NYINC may be a consolation prize.  If others from here or in cyberspace are interested, maybe we can all get together during the gathering. 

On 12/16/2022 at 12:37 PM, VKurtB said:

Do you have a theory as to why that is? I do. When did the idea of VAM’s begin? I believe VAM’s were a cynical ploy to make otherwise uninteresting coins laying around by the millions that nobody wanted, “artificially” interesting. 

I just assumed it might be related to the fact that MSDs are the #1 or among the top collected coins by Americans.

On 12/17/2022 at 10:42 AM, Simple Collector said:

A 1953-s ms65+ fbl in NGC holder sold for $42,750. With fees in March 2019. A 1953-s in ms66 PCGS just brought $1,359. This month. Both auctioned on GC. I must be missing something.

The PCGS MS-66 was not FBL ?  That's a key component of the $$$ value as I understood from the CU thread.

What is "clash removal" ? 

As I understand it, when the coin is being struck....the obverse and reverse dies come together.....would a "clash" be each imprinting on to the other's side ?  If so, is that a function of the dies or the striking mechanism ?  Maybe the tonnage is too high ?

Eagle, if you are here, this is the link to the infamous Franklin Gradeflation thread over ATS.  I know we talked about it in another thread but for now I can't find it.  So since this is a Franklin-related Thread, I figured I'd post it here:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/937859/rampant-gradeflation-in-franklins-is-why-i-stopped-collecting-the-series

Skimming through.....it does NOT appear that the upgrades after-the-fact were a result of coins being more valuable because of toning.  The coins were already toned and apparently not a contributing factor in the upgrades.  Plus, toning was already a positive when the original owners submitted and re-submitted.

The 1st page has pics of the coins submitted and they look unchanged.

So, Hog, let me get this straight....this coin is worth maybe $300 and the Ebay seller wants 40x that amount ?? 

1908 Wells Fargo No-Motto MS-66 OGH CAC:  I have it in the Wells Fargo Hoard Thread, too, but this coin is so lustrous and with great eye-appeal I felt a 75-page thread about Saints had to have the pics, too. 

Maybe it's the lighting -- because the 1908 NM's are supposed to lack in strike and luster and overall eye appeal unless you get up to MS-67/68 level -- but this is one of the BEST-LOOKING Saints I can recall, next to the MCMVII UHRs and the 1908-S MS-67 CAC Norweb Saint.

I'm not surprised that CAC and JA signed off on this Wells Fargo coin, a group they've got a low sticker rate on.

On 12/16/2022 at 9:42 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Don't look at me!  I'm still trying to figure out the Great One's reference to "Water displacement formula # 40," and its significance to PL. 

I actually think I understood RWB's 2nd explanation.  I'm not sure this was covered in the DE book but it might be in FMTM1 or the upcoming FMTM2.

I have to check out YouTube and look for some classic and modern coin presses in action with close-up shots of the various mechanisms.  It's tough to comprehend from READING about them...you need to SEE it.