JKK

When you do, consider it tuition.

When you post a question about a coin or coins, it's worth remembering that the people giving you answers--unless it is specifically about an NGC policy matter or submission--are volunteer hobbyists who do this for fun. They are not speaking for NGC; they speak only for themselves, and they want to help people. When you do a good job of posting your inquiry, you increase your chances of helpful replies, because you show respect for the volunteers' time.
Please do:
Ask a question, or multiple questions. We need to know what to focus on. Authenticity? Grade? Identification? Value? All of these? Think about your questions. "What would this grade at NGC?" and "What grade would you give this coin?" are two very different questions. If you ask the first one, only people who know a lot about NGC's ways have much to offer you. "How much is this worth?" is another nebulous question. Better: "What would a dealer pay me for this?" Or: "What would a dealer sell this for?" Post clear photos of the entire obverse, reverse, and if necessary the edge. If need be, add zoomed photos of specific features, but always clear shots of both full sides. Post all pictures of a given coin in the same thread. Accept that if you have photographic limitations, and you keep posting badly photographed coins, you'll keep being told they're not good enough to use to answer your question. You can't expect everyone to read all your threads and know your circumstances, be they poverty or Parkinson's or can'tbebothereditis. It's not their fault your photos can't or won't get better, even if it is also not always your own fault. Use a thread title that describes the coin(s), so that people who know the subject matter are likelier to read the thread. If you just inherited Bampaw's silver dollar collection which you can see spans the period 1850-1921, you could title it "Evaluating silver dollar collection 1850-1921." People who know a lot about those silver dollars will see it and be likely to help you. "Grading advice" is bad; everyone wants grading advice. "Morgan dollar grading advice" is good. "Is this fake?" is bad. "Is this Chinese silver coin fake?" is good. Post only once per coin. (If you have received a huge collection, and you want to start with a picture of the whole hoard with zoomed shots of parts, that's no problem. This guideline is intended to keep people from slamming multiple fully photographed coins into a single thread, making it difficult to figure out which one the answers are talking about. So if it's a hoard, and you single out some for close scrutiny, go with new threads for each of those.) If the picture files are too large in terms of data, learn to make them smaller without losing necessary information. Paint.net is a free image editor for Windows. Open your pictures in it, crop them, and save them as .jpgs. Look at what sizes they are now. This is too easy. If there is any question of identification or authentication, include weight in grams and diameter in millimeters. If you don't know the metric system, use an online converter. Weight is one of the key diagnostics of authenticity and unless the coin is too obviously bogus to bother, you will be asked for it. Just include it with your first post. Tell us what you know, or what you believe to be the case, about the coin. It's okay to be incorrect. Understand that the term "melt" does not automatically mean someone plans to melt the coin down, nor is anyone suggesting you should. It refers simply to the value of the metal for its own sake. Do not freak out when someone says "melt" about Bampaw's Morgan dollars. We really do not want or expect you to throw it in a blast furnace, all right? Use punctuation. Being easy to read works to your benefit. When you write a twelve-line paragraph with no periods or commas, people tune you out. For those who need reminders, this , is a comma. You use it to separate phrases, more or less. This . is a period. You use it to end most sentences. Hitting Enter will insert a paragraph break. You use this between series of thoughts. Live them. Love them. Use them. because ill tell u what really suxors is when some1 posts sententses like this 1 4 about half a page its impossibel 2 read and some people including me will prob not finish readin it which means u arent gettin as many respontses think about it ur only hurtin ur own cozz notice how stooped this reads ur in affect makin urself ten times harder 2 help and frankly its disrespectfull 2 assume entellegent people should do all that extra work 4 ur sake now kinely clean up ur act and rite like u at least got thru 6ixth grade im glad we had this little talk Come prepared to accept responsive answers. Brace yourself to learn that Bampaw or Opa, always considered the family's Great Numismatist, may not have been so great at this. No one seeks to offend your relative's legacy, but the coin must be called what it is. Be patient. No one who doesn't know the answer is going to post "I don't know." It can take days to a week for someone to notice. Remember that some inquiries may require research, for which volunteers are not being paid, and are doing as they have time. Expect that opinions may vary, even among experienced numismatists. Realize that if you're rude and/or difficult, your problem is not the people who take time to fight with you. Your problem is the people who, without a word, mark you down as someone not to bother with in the future--because you have no idea who or how many they are, and thus have no power to alleviate that diagnosis. Kindly do not:
Just post pictures without giving any indication of what you want to learn. Post glare-obscured, blurry, or otherwise poor photos. Post only partial pictures of errors or damage. Complain that your pics are too big to post. Use an image editor to crop and save them as .jpgs. Get defensive when told your pics are not good. Maybe you're bad at photography; maybe you don't have a good camera; maybe the photography gods just don't like you. If you can do better, do so. If you cannot do better, than just accept that this limits how much we can help you. Post a new thread for every photo of the same coin. Post new threads in the same forum, or other forums, with reference to the same coin. Once suffices. The shotgun approach makes one look impatient and immature. Use a meaningless thread title like "looking for advice" or "no idea what 2 do" or "plz help." Those tell people nothing about the discussion except that it was begun by someone who picks meaningless thread titles. Omit weight and diameter, unless they are completely irrelevant to your question. Get annoyed if you don't like the answers. If you disagree with them, fine; act on your views. Ask us to tell you how we know it's a counterfeit. While that's a legit question on its face, the problem is that even if you didn't mint the fake, those who make them are always looking for ways to improve. We frown upon supplying helpful feedback to criminals, and so should you. So no, don't ask us that. And if we tell you politely that we aren't going into detail, don't get annoyed because you don't like that answer. Grouse about not getting any replies. No one knows everything; no one has unlimited time; sometimes no one knows the answer. Come in telling how many Youtube videos you have watched about coins. This will lower your credibility. Use Photobucket links. If you do, don't anticipate that people will use them. Photobucket has been connected with numerous malware and virus infections. Spell 'nickel' as 'nickle.' Whether referring to the element or the five-cent coin, this misspelling is a very bad look. If you take the time to do this correctly, you can learn a lot more here than if you skip important steps.
If you do not take the time to do this correctly, some posters may decide that their time is better spent helping other people.
Lastly, here is a Cliff's Notes version that would take care of 95% of the most common disappointed inquiries. If you want to post yours anyway, fine, but just please kindly do not engage in a protracted and dullard debate when you are told that:
Your 1804 silver dollar is a bad counterfeit. Look up authentic examples and compare closely. Your 1776 Continental dollar is a bad counterfeit or a souvenir replica. Many were churned out. What you think is a double die is almost surely mechanical doubling, which carries no premium. What you think is a mint error is likely post-mint damage, and your coin is worth face value. Your "silver" non-1943 penny is plated, replated, has had the plating come off, is altered, or somesuch. Your "bronze" 1943 penny is altered somehow, and is worth very little. Your Greek "silver" coin with flanges sticking out of its edges is a bad cast counterfeit. Your cheesy-looking brass token is not gold, and is not a coin. Any clown can mint brass tokens with bad designs. Cleaning your coins is a stupid idea. Yes, even for you. You, too. If you ask how, listen to the people who tell you not to do so. If you cite Etsy as an authority, people will laugh their heads off with good reason. This is horrible for your cred. If you cite a Youtube video as an authority, people will laugh with good reason. This is bad for your cred. If you have more than three supposed error coins you found in change, and plan to post them all, the odds are overwhelming that none of them are mint errors worthy of note. If you keep posting these without seeming to learn, people might conclude that learning is not your thing. There, that rounds up the usual suspects. I'm not saying those answers are automatically always right. However, as the strongest probabilities, they should be presumed correct unless they can be proven wrong. If you have one child and something is broken in the house, not by you or your spouse, typically the child did it. If you can prove the kid innocent, fair enough; but you know the kid almost surely did it. If you argue about a "double die" at fatuous length when it's clear you don't know what one really is, you will look like the kid with soot all over him insisting he didn't really dig around in the fireplace.
Don't be that kid.
===
Opinions, comments, additions, suggestions?

Sometimes being on this forum feels like being one of the old guys working in a mill. Someone new shows up to clean up around one of the planers, and immediately stands in a spot where they throw the broken boards off. Old guy says, hey, not a good place to stand, good place to get clocked in the head with a flying board. New guy says nah, I know what I'm doing. No, really, says old guy, this could get you seriously hurt, that's why we don't stand there. New guy looks at old guy, basically hints that he's an old fogey who doesn't get it, and decides to stick around. Old guy says, okay, when you get hit in the head and your memory comes back, hope it includes that we tried to tell you not to stand there, and that the only way you would learn is by getting hit. Then he walks away.
We're like if the old guy stood there and kept after the very_unwise_planer_handyman_novice for half an hour pleading with him to save his own braincase from impact, and the VUPHN insists on showing the level of wisdom that is probably a result of many other past kindly meant guidances ignored about where to stand. I would rather we all walked away sooner. Once three people have told someone it's nothing, and they still insist, let's just tell them to send it in without remorse. Some already do say that. There's no point debating with someone whose mind is made up to be wrong and only wants their decision confirmed. They hear only what confirms.

Who cares why?
Not saying this to be rude to you, of course, just being very candid and offering some critical thought. When someone comes here to waste our time and demand confirmation of their pareidolia, I don't care if they did it because they had a nosebleed, found a parking lot nickel, or saw something on allwetsy and decided they could get rich. I don't care and I don't see why anyone does. Once they prove this, why waste time trying to convince them? Who benefits?
Not them. Not us. Not NGC. No one. They should be put on ignore posts and left to scream into the void.
If you actually do care on reflection, for real and for true, then that's a personal decision and not for me to critique. I might not understand it, but I don't have to understand, and I accept that. But if we really don't care, let's show it. And I'm proposing that after a certain point, we should seriously consider ceasing to care. Or rather, I've already stopped caring and I hope others will join me in apathy. There are other people worth bothering with who are not pareidoliacs. I see nothing gained by taking attention and teaching from them and giving it to ingrates. This board wastes so vulgar_term_for_copulation_in_present_participle much time on ingrates, it's the functional equivalent of giving drug addicts free money.

Who cares why?
Not saying this to be rude to you, of course, just being very candid and offering some critical thought. When someone comes here to waste our time and demand confirmation of their pareidolia, I don't care if they did it because they had a nosebleed, found a parking lot nickel, or saw something on allwetsy and decided they could get rich. I don't care and I don't see why anyone does. Once they prove this, why waste time trying to convince them? Who benefits?
Not them. Not us. Not NGC. No one. They should be put on ignore posts and left to scream into the void.
If you actually do care on reflection, for real and for true, then that's a personal decision and not for me to critique. I might not understand it, but I don't have to understand, and I accept that. But if we really don't care, let's show it. And I'm proposing that after a certain point, we should seriously consider ceasing to care. Or rather, I've already stopped caring and I hope others will join me in apathy. There are other people worth bothering with who are not pareidoliacs. I see nothing gained by taking attention and teaching from them and giving it to ingrates. This board wastes so vulgar_term_for_copulation_in_present_participle much time on ingrates, it's the functional equivalent of giving drug addicts free money.

Sometimes being on this forum feels like being one of the old guys working in a mill. Someone new shows up to clean up around one of the planers, and immediately stands in a spot where they throw the broken boards off. Old guy says, hey, not a good place to stand, good place to get clocked in the head with a flying board. New guy says nah, I know what I'm doing. No, really, says old guy, this could get you seriously hurt, that's why we don't stand there. New guy looks at old guy, basically hints that he's an old fogey who doesn't get it, and decides to stick around. Old guy says, okay, when you get hit in the head and your memory comes back, hope it includes that we tried to tell you not to stand there, and that the only way you would learn is by getting hit. Then he walks away.
We're like if the old guy stood there and kept after the very_unwise_planer_handyman_novice for half an hour pleading with him to save his own braincase from impact, and the VUPHN insists on showing the level of wisdom that is probably a result of many other past kindly meant guidances ignored about where to stand. I would rather we all walked away sooner. Once three people have told someone it's nothing, and they still insist, let's just tell them to send it in without remorse. Some already do say that. There's no point debating with someone whose mind is made up to be wrong and only wants their decision confirmed. They hear only what confirms.

Sometimes being on this forum feels like being one of the old guys working in a mill. Someone new shows up to clean up around one of the planers, and immediately stands in a spot where they throw the broken boards off. Old guy says, hey, not a good place to stand, good place to get clocked in the head with a flying board. New guy says nah, I know what I'm doing. No, really, says old guy, this could get you seriously hurt, that's why we don't stand there. New guy looks at old guy, basically hints that he's an old fogey who doesn't get it, and decides to stick around. Old guy says, okay, when you get hit in the head and your memory comes back, hope it includes that we tried to tell you not to stand there, and that the only way you would learn is by getting hit. Then he walks away.
We're like if the old guy stood there and kept after the very_unwise_planer_handyman_novice for half an hour pleading with him to save his own braincase from impact, and the VUPHN insists on showing the level of wisdom that is probably a result of many other past kindly meant guidances ignored about where to stand. I would rather we all walked away sooner. Once three people have told someone it's nothing, and they still insist, let's just tell them to send it in without remorse. Some already do say that. There's no point debating with someone whose mind is made up to be wrong and only wants their decision confirmed. They hear only what confirms.

It only takes one sucker to make someone's day.

I hope Katrina got her phone back.

Well, thanks for having the honesty to admit that you are contributing to the problem and damaging the hobby.

Okay. Just checking. What I can't wait to see is how someone listens to you by not listening to you. I suspect that's how Daoist thinking would approach this.

I wonder if it's occurred to you that anyone reading posts on here (yours included) is engaging in INTERNET-BASED LEARNING. Does this mean that you have an EXTREMELY NEGATIVE VIEW of anyone attempting to learn from your posts?

Well, this isn't going to be much use to you, but very well.
I look for ancient and medieval world coins that are interesting to me. I am bored stupid with Constantine, Gallienus, Constantius, and other very common ancients that can be had for $8 each. I like ancient Roman and Greek, the Islamic world, Crusader coins, Byzantine, and any coin I just think is interesting for whatever arcane reasons about the way my brain works. In post-1600 coins I like world in general, especially if it's something new to me and especially Italian/German/Indian pre-unification states as well as colonials.
These aren't easy to find. There are probably a dozen local coin shows a year if one is willing to drive an hour and a half each way, and there are few ancients vendors. There are even fewer worth a billon antoninianus. In the end I end up blowing most of my annual savings at our club's coin show, where there are at least three quality ancient/world vendors each year.

Well, this isn't going to be much use to you, but very well.
I look for ancient and medieval world coins that are interesting to me. I am bored stupid with Constantine, Gallienus, Constantius, and other very common ancients that can be had for $8 each. I like ancient Roman and Greek, the Islamic world, Crusader coins, Byzantine, and any coin I just think is interesting for whatever arcane reasons about the way my brain works. In post-1600 coins I like world in general, especially if it's something new to me and especially Italian/German/Indian pre-unification states as well as colonials.
These aren't easy to find. There are probably a dozen local coin shows a year if one is willing to drive an hour and a half each way, and there are few ancients vendors. There are even fewer worth a billon antoninianus. In the end I end up blowing most of my annual savings at our club's coin show, where there are at least three quality ancient/world vendors each year.

It's worth questioning whether the coin would be FS even without that season-ending injury. As I understand it, there are 5FS and 6FS designations. I'm not sure this one would even make 5 without the ding, and I can pretty much assure you it wouldn't make 6. Not to worry; everyone who collects Jeffs at some point confronts this small but important hurdle in evaluating them. It takes a really sharp strike for the steps even to have existed when the coin was freshly minted, and the high ones wear off quickly in circulation even if they ever had full definition.

It's worth questioning whether the coin would be FS even without that season-ending injury. As I understand it, there are 5FS and 6FS designations. I'm not sure this one would even make 5 without the ding, and I can pretty much assure you it wouldn't make 6. Not to worry; everyone who collects Jeffs at some point confronts this small but important hurdle in evaluating them. It takes a really sharp strike for the steps even to have existed when the coin was freshly minted, and the high ones wear off quickly in circulation even if they ever had full definition.

Not sure how it is where you're at, but my experience in three different places has been that once the dealer knows you as a regular, and that you consistently pay with something other than a credit card (the fee can really cut into their margins, especially on stuff near melt), you are likely to start getting better deals.
How those relate to the red book, I don't know. Dirty secret: I've never owned one. But I do get Coin World magazine, and I find its values to be on the high side. So if that's what the dealer is charging, on my first visit or two, I might pay that, and might make sure I always bought at least something, just to establish some optimism on the dealer's part. But then if I came on a bigger shopping trip, I might ask if there were anything s/he could do for me, and see what the dealer said. I typically get about 20% off the marked prices with established dealer relationships. Of course, if even one time we negotiated that, having not talked about payment methods, and then I stupidly whipped out the plastic, that'd be a major step backward in the relationship because by then the dealer has come to make certain assumptions about my intentions, and it's up to me to keep demonstrating that I'm good business (and should therefore continue to get good deals).
A lot of finding a great dealer is learning the fine art of being a good customer. At my dealer back in Kennewick, one day they were slammed and I sort of stepped up to help a lady and her teen daughter, who were interested in the same world coins book I was looking at. I went through it and told them some specifics about pieces, including a 1787 Connecticut copper that they really liked. I ended up basically selling them about $100 worth of coins (and they paid retail). They were very happy. The dealer didn't say anything, but I also had my own haul. Most of it was silver and had not been repriced for some time (Ag having gone up quite a bit). Without a word, the dealer rang it all up at the marked prices, rather than at the 20% higher he could have legitimately asked. I understood exactly what had happened. The savings were, in effect, a commission--a nice thank-you. When the dealer likes having you around, lots of good things can come your way.

I think everyone's pretty clear on what it says and does not say. You provided photos, after all.
Looks to me like a common bullion round, private mintage of some sort, and unlikely to be worth more than the value of one ounce of silver--whatever that's going for nowadays. You should not refer to it as a dollar because it isn't one.

I did a little looking, enough to satisfy myself that what it's supposed to be is a half follis (aka 20 nummi), a common bronze coin of the early Byz era. I would start looking on Wildwinds, choosing to view thumbnails, and use the reverse as your primary cue. You can skip forward past Justin II, unless you want to make sure I didn't miss something (quite possible).
I don't see any seams along the edge that you showed me, but it does look a little too disclike to make me very comfortable. In any case, first find what it's supposed to be, then use that info to look up known authentic examples.

Just because someone painted it doesn't make it a counterfeit; paint isn't that common on coins. Replating is more common. I'd like to see a photo of the edge plus weight and diameter.
My own guess is that it was cast as a necklace and the little loop broke off, but the edge is the next place for us to look.

It's not silly. For someone without much background in coins, it's a completely natural question. Stang and Buf offer likely explanations. In 1982, when the penny's composition changed, it really exposed flaws in the process in my opinion.

It's not silly. For someone without much background in coins, it's a completely natural question. Stang and Buf offer likely explanations. In 1982, when the penny's composition changed, it really exposed flaws in the process in my opinion.

Not.

I have this weird notion that the whole coin must conform to the grade specifics; if it misses even one, I look to the next lower grade. I realize that this seems almost quaint around these parts, but any other stance or outlook simply cheapens the value and meaning of the grade. I am not sure where anyone--including TPGs--got the idea that it was okay to blow that off in any situation, but most people seem to feel so. That's fine. They don't have to bother following the actual standards, and I in turn don't have to respect their grading opinions. I'm certainly not planning to adapt mine to the pariedolian consensus.

EF-40 is what I'd expect the accumulated masses here to grade it, on the grounds that they do not actually consult an ANA grading standards book. I find this forum's grading positively pariedoliac, which is why I rarely say anything or offer grading help--no one's listening to the blockhead/killjoy who actually looked it up in the book. I wouldn't be surprised if some eager beavers proclaimed it AU. (Nauseated, but not surprised.)
VF-20 is what I'd grade your piece, solidly and with great confidence. I think 30 would be a stretch. Not that I expect this to influence anyone--any more than I expect persons_of_impaired_testicular_sensation to stop giving helpful hints to counterfeiters, another source of my disenchantment--but just because something solidly meets a given grade criterion and is maybe slightly nicer does not f-bombing mean that it automatically merits the next increment upward. A good G-4 is a G-4, for example, unless it really truly is a G-6.