EagleRJO

If you do a YT search for "Get Rich with Pocket Change" the enlightenment you seek will likely be found.

I actually like the modern gold coins more as (at least until recently) they were better struck with more detail, like the 2021 1 oz. gold eagles.

Thanks for looking at your VAM book Sandon and confirming the known varieties. I did look at the VAM-3. It's close, but enlarging and overlaying the marks so that I could switch quickly to directly compare them revealed that the posted coins have a CC mark tilted to the left slightly compared to that VAM. I am going to pass on this one as I am not at least finding a match with a known variety, but just out of curiosity I may post to the VamWorld site since I did find that certified example match. [It is also rubbing my funny bone that there is no VAM-1 normal die, but there is a description.]

I agree JP, even though there are a limited number of dies for any year/mark. I have come across a number of Morgans that looked completely legit (matching details, shapes, fonts, locations, spacing, alignment, etc.) but with a date or mark that varied from listed VAMs as those are hand punched in the dies. Some I have posted or seen here with ppl thinking it may be a new variety and others possibly being a counterfeit. I always pass on those and will leave it up to the variety enthusiasts to take a chance on submitting them. But this is the first time I have come across a date/mark that didn't match a known variety where there was a matching certified example by one of the big boys. I was thinking of posting this to the VAM site like RWB suggested but wanted to post it here first so hopefully someone, maybe with the VAM book, could check what I'm seeing. And I am curious about what they mean by a VAM-1 (which is typically the normal die and may be a match for these from the description) "Does Not Exist".

See the post above by Sandon who provided some very good advice as well as sources for pictures of the coins you are interested in. I think the books become a little less important if you are not trying to find diagnostics for super rare coins, but check with your local library (you know, that big building with all the books in it ... 😆). If they don't have a copy, which they prob don't, they can usually arrange to get or borrow one with a little time.

I am just curious about the profound interest in such a rare coin with a virtual zero chance of finding a raw one in the wild. Take any YT vids of hitting the jackpot finding a raw one with lumps of salt (not just grains). 😉

Doing a complete set with all dates and marks can be tough, particularly if a few dates/marks are less common. I am running into that with a complete Morgan Dollar set I have been working on with a few of the CC marks and some in the mid 1890's being less common, combined with the price spike earlier this year. But I am just being patient plugging away when I can get them in a decent grade for a good price, as prices come back down to reality, and I have had a little more success with Great Collections recently.

I was looking at the attached raw 1880-CC Morgan Reverse of 79 (close to Fine condition) with a mint mark that doesn't seem to match any of the varieties on the VAM World site (www.vamworld.com/wiki/1880-CC_VAMs). However, I did see a certified F-12 on PCGS CoinFacts which I was using for the grade and overall appearance that looks like a pretty close match, including the mark which is probably a "Large CC" tilted left slightly. I think the closest one is a VAM-9, but the mark is farther away from the "DO" of dollar so that VAM isn't a match. VAM-3 is also close, but the posted coins appear to have a mark tilted left slightly more. VAM World lists VAM-3 thru VAM-10 with none of them matching either one. Are they missing a VAM with a Large CC mark? Also, I see a note below the VAM World list indicating that there was a past VAM-1 described as "Slanted Arrow Feathers, Large CC (Does Not Exist)". Was the CoinFacts F-12 slabbed before that VAM was removed, possibly as not being a legit coin?

Note the dramatic pause!

Yea, I wasn't sure if it was surprise at there being such a good counterfeit for what is a common lower value Morgan. And a good chunk of what I have picked up doing that set has been through this board kicking around coins with more experienced collectors like yourself, Sandon, Coinbuf, OldHoopster, etc. That has been invaluable and much appreciated. I agree the 1900 Shawn posted is just a common circulated coin, but what better coin to start off with doing a little digging first to get your feet wet if you are going to go down that raw coin road like I did where you really do need to be careful with more valuable ones.

Found a scam artist on eBay selling a cheap Chinese proof copy as "1889 CC MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR MS/UNC BU" (eBay item number:175441701928). It's not marked as "COPY" on the coin as required by the hobby protection act and they only note it's a copy in the fine print description, and already have ppl bidding $375 for it. Wow don't be fooled.

@Shawn1984Even though it looks pretty good take some basic steps as a matter of evaluating any raw coin to help protect yourself and get in the habit of doing that, no matter what the coin cost. Keep in mind that even though the coin is not that valuable there can be contemporary fakes to watch out for, including that 1900-O Morgan (see attached which is about a 1900-O Fine condition counterfeit Morgan). First go to resources like PCGS CoinFacts or auction sites (e.g. Great Collections or Heritage Auctions) and pull up some examples of certified coins with about the same condition (like the attached) to get at least a descriptive grade match and compare the details of the coin. Then if something doesn't look right, or just as a matter of practice like I do with raw coins, go to sites like VamWorld for varieties of Morgans or NGC Variety Plus, etc. to dig a little deeper. Like that one appears to be a VAM-3 with a "near date" and the correct C3 reverse with a narrow left facing wing gap and an O mint mark tilted right (www.vamworld.com/wiki/1900-O_VAM-3). The pics are a little blurry and don't always tell the whole story, so if you do buy it make sure they have no questions returns and look at it carefully when you get it in hand. Like checking to make sure it's a match, if it's been harshly cleaned and that there are not any of the indicators for the known counterfeit. Also. for future reference it's always better to start a new thread about any coin you have questions on as it's less likely to get buried and you are likely to get more direct responses to questions you may have. Btw, welcome and good luck with that Morgan if you go for it.

I hate when that happens ... note to self, have coffee before posting anything [duck].

Well at least you knew to look for that info and posted it, which is half the battle, however unlikely it's a match. I hope he does get to say he "foundit".

Pretty funny stuff, and impressive knowledge about a very particular Ike. I know who to ask if I have any questions about Ike's in the future.

Yea, that's fine, I was just curious what errors or variety it may have been. I'm still curious what the evaluation meant in reference to the 5.

I don't agree with that logic. The value of something is less than anticipated which is a loss any way you slice it. If you buy an impaired coin at an appropriate discount with eyes wide open that's fine. But finding out there is a problem after the fact and just passing that on to someone else isn't a solution or negate it being a loss. I would just sell it as is and get an unimpaired coin if that's what you really wanted, or just keep it if you are happy with the way the coin looks and okay with having a Details coin in your collection.

So, with the description "lamination flap through the 5 of date" does that mean a lamination flap from another coin ended up on the die which was then struck thru on that coin resulting in a depressed area at the 5 of the date, or does that mean a lamination flap from that coin which was through the 5 coming off later? Also, weren't you guys discussing a raised area at the 5 previously. And I am just curious what error or variety that you thought it was which isn't a production issue to send it out for an evaluation

Looks like the op is long gone as this is a revived thread by someone with a single axe-grinding cryptic post. Also, if the coin only had partial luster as the op stated that would indicate to me a lightly cleaned uncirculated coin or minor circulation rubs. So, you either end up with an Unc Details or AU coin with essentially the same net effect. Sounds like a crack out resold on eBay as uncirculated so it ends up someone else's problem, with hapless buyers coming along thinking they can cherry pick eBay garbage getting burned. You are lucky or cautious to get a straight buy from there. And wouldn't a dealer have slabbed a nice Unc older seated half dollar that hadn't been cleaned to make some money on that if they could. I take the position that coins on eBay are over-graded, cleaned and/or counterfeit unless proven otherwise. And older raw coins in general have been cleaned unless proven otherwise, not the other way around imo.

Hmmm, lower than the fields so yea die break is out. What does that leave? Strike through or capped die? But with those raised areas remaining? Alien ray gun blaster damage? I give up ... until I try to go to sleep later. Thanks JP. 😜

I'm trying to think this through and not really comming up with many suspects for the "crime". PMD? Possibly in a few small spots where the core is exposed, particularly if the cladding was thinned in those areas by another cause. But I just don't see how that is mostly PMD without exposing more of the zinc core. Struck Through? Maybe, but struck through what? Not the usual "suspects" like grease, feeder fingers, screws, cloth, etc. Maybe a broken off piece of metal from the press, but with that profile? Die Break? Seems like the more likely suspect if a piece of the die broke off leaving a very uneven fracture surface. Particularly since it's in an area prone to die cracks, so maybe it progressed a little further to a broken off piece before it was caught. I think you have a really interesting puzzler there JP.

@LDH Coins & Memorabiliasorry about the toning sidetrack, but at least it didn't blow up which seems to happen sometimes with that topic. Did you decide to go with the less expensive coin with the CAC sticker and cross it? Also, I am just curious what complete date/mark set you are working on where you were having trouble with a given date and mark.

There are a lot of sellers on eBay that don't know the series for coins they list. I have seen quite a number of fakes there and usually send the seller a quick message and report it. A few get defensive, but most didn't even know or are selling it for someone ... or at least thats what they claim. You realized something was off and posted it. Some buyers there are not so lucky.

I'm not that into toned coins, but I do have a few mostly with a slight golden like color with a rainbow hint, and one older half dollar with kind of a blue-green tone, which is more my style. Then there are the more heavily rainbow toned coins like in that thread which tend to be somewhat unique that some ppl more recently go nuts over. It just takes 2 people who really like one and they don't know when they might see another similar one, and you can easily see the price going through the roof. Add to that higher grading than in the past for those, an older holder and a sticker and I don't even bother reading the listing. 😉

That should be the first clue.