EagleRJO

Thanks, some of the toned circulated Morgans do get a little bit of that "belt-sander" look with the high rims and very pronounced high points at the cap and hair on the obv as well as the eagle's breast and head on the rev, particularly the breast. Looks like a decent circulated coin on the surface that may be a VAM-1 normal die, but I have to do a little more digging now and then see if I might be able to pick it up for a reasonable price.

The coins were toned Franklins where they were discussing resubmitting some themselves in the past and getting essentially the same grade. They previously sold the coins and then saw them with a higher grade and being sold for a lot more money. Keep in mind that thread was from a while ago when toned coins were starting to be graded higher by the TPGs (previously viewed as an undesirable appearance that knocked it down in grade) and also becoming wildly popular, and not just for Franklins or nickels. Sacks Bowers has a webpage from a while ago about a rainbow toned MS-68 1880-S Morgan valued at $5,000 that sold at auction for $23,000 with no change in grade. Exactly, and add to that the demand craze for toned coins that also developed, particularly with nicer rainbow-like colors. But I am more curious about the impromptu analysis about crossover submissions I saw. I will have to keep an eye on that one to see if the OP completes that.

That is an unusual looking penny. I agree it doesn't look like delaminated metal and if those were post mint gouges you would expect there to be more indications of that on the rim and shield [and zinc showing]. Also looks like a chipped die at the shield. I vote for deteriorated or damaged die. Is that a keeper for you or just a curiosity since it doesn't look like an error.?

I could go with VF-30, but not XF. I see some wear of the rim dentils, particularly on the obv near the bottom, but it doesn't look flat. Which areas are you referring to JP?

The attached 1892-CC Morgan was listed by a dealer as XF grade, but I'm not buying it. A little too much wear of the hair on the money side (all lines not defined) and a little too much wear of the eagle's upper wing areas and head. Maybe VF-25 or VF-30. Thoughts?

Funny stuff, and great movie. I have had my share too. Like "left wing of an eagle" on the reverse of a coin. Did I mean the wing on the left side of the coin or the left facing wing (wing on the right side of the coin). 😜

I did find the Franklin Gradeflation thread and it was about toned coins, including the follow up posts and the ones that upgraded, which is what I recalled. So those crazy numbers make sense since they were toned Franklins which people were going crazy over. I also saw a recent thread there asking for information on crossover submissions to compile an impromptu database. It will be interesting to see the results of that analysis.

Don't take it personally. He is like that with everybody who is not being technically precise, which I actually appreciate. Keeps you on your toes.

The sketch I posted really is an excellent graphic representation of doubling that just jumps out at you. Does he have more sketches for other errors or attributes of coins?

The attached may help related to doubling. Note that doubling for hand punched dates and marks is a little different.

Yea, I'm pretty sure those were toned coins in older holders where the desirability of those along with grading standards have changed over time. In general, you can get a grade bump resubmitting an older holder (not just resubmitting in the same period hoping for a different outcome). I don't think that relates to the effect of any CAC sticker or crossovers.

I recall something about those coins. But that was a while ago and I thought it related more to a different view on toned coins combined with diff standards, plus newer ppl over-grading some of those, and not about crossovers or CAC.

Sounds like a very limited group, maybe a few higher grade less common gold coins, that doesn't really apply to a general discussion and may have more to do with the age of the orig holder. Yea, I have seen that happen too with some CC Morgans and a few older half dollar coins, typically an OGH with a CAC, mostly at the spike earlier this year. Collectors seemed to go ga-ga over them even if they paid more of a premium than a grade bump would give you, so I avoid those like the plague. 😉 I think it may be more to do with the older holders and change in grading standards, and it may be happening less often now with ppl pulling back on what thay are spending.

I generally agree for average value coins, particularly since the major TPGs have had the "+" grade designation for a while. However, I do see value in having another expert look at a coin and the grade for more expensive coins, particularly where there can be significant price changes for relatively minor grade differences that can be somewhat subjective. I could also see it possibly helping in your situation of submitting a crossover, where maybe there might be less of a tendency to be overly critical of a previously assigned grade, if that was going to be an issue without that.

@Bob.T Are you sure you don't mean MS/PF (which is an either/or MS or PF category) or maybe MSPL (mint state proof like)?

I will say this. I have a number of the various coins being discussed that I find interesting and which didn't cost that much, which I keep together and collectively refer to as "Potty Dollars" after one type, which should be a clue as to how I view these coins.

I was going to ask for some additional pics because of a few (discolored?) areas that looked off like the cheek and breast, and the left wing with a few discolored areas and one or 2 spots that looked like holes. I was on the fence with the multiple rim dings, but I think I agree those knock it into details and I will pass. Thanks for the feedback.

It looks like QA may be a bit bored, to the point of posting hypothetical purchases of counterfeit coins being sold by Chinese coin dealers. 😜

Attached is the VF-30 I was using for comparison, which is close but then there are the rim dings you noted which I thought would just knock it down a bit as they didn't seem as heavy as the hits the PCGS "No Grade" examples had.

Btw, the attached is the PCGS VF-25 I was using as one of the comparison coins.

I am starting to dig a little more into each grade for which there is a fine line between them sometimes. I think the attached 1892-CC Morgan is VF-25 (with possible light cleaning) but some feedback would be appreciated. I have the ANA grading standards and RB descriptions for general grades and came up with VF for the coin. I then went to PCGS CoinFacts for this specific coin and looked up examples of various middle grades. Definitely less wear than a PCGS CoinFacts VF-20. Looks like a pretty close match with a VF-25. Actually, looks like slightly less wear compared to a VF-25, but not quite as sharp in detail as a VF-30. Thoughts?

If I recall correctly that is the raw coin before being submitted, and it came back Details graded due to an altered color. I think it's in one of Sandon's sets which was why he submitted it. Btw, I have quite a number of raw coins with no wear, including some less common ones from the 1800's, and they will never be put in a slab coffin. 😉

I think the OP is long gone and thinking they are otw to coin error nirvana having already submitted the coin after triumphantly declaring almost a week ago that the mint doesnt inspect every coin for the mythical "planchet strike through edge rim error" and that everyone needed to be reported for not knowing that. 😜

The way things have been going if you tell them it isn't worth sending them to a grading company to verify the errors they will think you just don't want to be proven wrong.