EagleRJO

Just having the dies used is a huge help there, but for counterfeit detection I also ordered a copy of "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-Real Reales" 2014 by Robert Gurney which I understand is the go-to counterfeit reference for these coins.

Idk about the Pilgrim which is a mess, but for the Columbian it also looks to me like heavy tarnish/toning but otherwise not that much wear or damage and a pretty close match with known examples, so for $10 why not. A quick bath may clean it up a little. Next thing you know JP is going to be buying a raw "shipwrecked" early date half dollar, which even I wouldn't do.

You, a confirmed MS slab guy buying older beat-up raw coins? I just fell off my chair! Can't beat the price! But the Columbian half dollar is faked a lot.

Nice coins Bill, especially the disme ... errr, dime. I gotta take a break from researching older coins.

Thanks @World Colonialif it's the one that covers die varieties from the Mexico mint between 1772-1821 it might be a very good resource to have. I haven't really started looking seriously at coins, except for just some internet surfing and basic comparisons, as I want to know more about the coins and identifying genuine pieces before I purchase any. Like for example I saw the attached raw 1793 Mexico Spanish Colony 8 Reales coin listed for a little over $300 which seems high, unless it's a little higher grade than I think. It's also hard to get a handle on grading these coins because slabbed examples have been about one grade higher than I would have thought, and I don't know if TPGs are making allowances for possibly weak strikes or something. I would think the attached is probably a VF+ to XF, but I see similar condition slabbed ones graded XF+. I have a copy of the "Standard Catalog of World Coins, 1701-1800" on the way which I hope will shed some light on that. Also, from what I can see with limited knowledge it looks basically legit comparing it to an NGC example for the same year, but I noticed minor variations, particularly with the positions of the lettering on the reverse, which may be because it's a different die than the NGC example. That book should may help there. I do plan on going to the NYINC coin show in January, and hopefully I will be a little more knowledgeable about these coins to shop for one or two there in addition to some Morgans I hope to pick up.

Nice coin! I like the hint of toning. PCGS prices on their site are wacked out right now. They adjusted upwards significantly earlier this year after the serious price spike, and never adjusted them again when prices came back down to reality more recently. I guess they feel it may be going backwards or something. I have been using the NGC values, even for PCGS slabs, which have been spot on lately as they are not so quick to make price changes and never adjusted upwards for the spike, so there is no adjustment downward needed. For coins I have been shopping for and tracking, the NGC values have been pretty much on the money with Great Collections, HA and eBay auction prices with a few exceptions for coins with a higher demand.

Wait, I thought that was his "day job". [Duck ]

That would be very interesting to check out. Apparently, Alexander Hamilton [Secretary of the Treasury back then] was very involved in early US coins, and in particular using the Spanish milled dollar as the basis for the initial specs of US silver dollars and establishing the bi-metallic money standard of the US in 1792, with the US silver dollar set as containing 371-1/4 grains of fine silver and a gold-silver ratio of 15. I did find an old paper that discussed that titled "The Spanish Dollar and the Colonial Shilling" by W. G. Sumner dated July 1898.

What's also interesting is that there is such a wide spread for a specially handled coin from 67 to 70, and yet the very first and very last struck ones graded a perfect 70. No pressure there to give it a 70. Bottom line of how I look at these things (first strike, early release, etc.) is if you take the coin out of the slab and hold it in your hand what are you left with? In this case, without certified documentation of the striking and unique identifying characteristics of the individual coins (if there even are any), you are left with just an $80 bullion coin.

Very interesting. Looks like measurements and calculations for 8 Reales coins to compare that to what the US was producing to be on par with what was commonly accepted currency worldwide at the time and required by the 1792 Coinage Act. Interesting that you can readily locate that to post also. You should know me by now that raw coins are the hands-down (and hands-on) favorite for me, and that I'm willing to put in the time and effort to research and check out these coins, which I actually find enjoyable, and accept that there is added risk. They are not in the top 50, but like most raw older coins they are counterfeited which is party why I am limiting the range to lesser valued 8 Reales I was asking about, and also asking about information and die varieties for the Spanish Colony 8 Reales dated between 1786 and 1793, and the 1788 Spanish 8 Reales in particular.

That is a good resource for people error hunting, and it has a section titled "Non Errors" which may be helpful for newer collectors or error hunters to weed out some basic things like various types of coin damage that are not mint errors, with another section that has a "Comprehensive Error-Variety Checklist" to then narrow down the possible error. I also found this "Variety & Errors" site when looking for info on rotated dies: VARIETY & ERRORS - Everything on Currency and Collectibles! (www.varietyerrors.com) And if you are just into errors the attached book with values may be helpful.

Yup, that has been happening to me constantly today and I was wondering if there were server issues.

Sorry that it turned out that the coin wasn't one with any extra value, which are actually hard to find. If it's any consolation I do have ones that are in worse shape as I actually save coins that I find in parking lots with variations of the best and the worst ones I come across, and thus my previous reference to that with some humor that I realize you probably didn't get. And since you are just starting out there was a recent thread that discusses resources for newer collectors which may be helpful located here:

I will buy it off you for 26 cents for my Road Rash Parking Lot Collection. 😜 [Have to out-bid the store owner 😉]

I can see somewhat of a premium for a documented first or last struck coin with say special handling and provenance. But a $79, 920 premium for an $80 coin, WOW. Plus S&B likely made out like bandits on those auctions.

I was thinking about adding an early silver dollar to the collection (maybe more down the road) before the US started producing those coins in 1794, but one that was adopted by the US as legal tender which was the Spanish 8 Reales, I think starting in July of 1785, called a Spanish Milled Dollar or Pieces of Eight. So, it looks like to fit into that criteria I should look into Spanish Colony 8 Reales dated between 1786 and 1793, possibly starting with an 1788 Spanish 8 Reales maybe struck at the Mexico mint as an option that appears to have good availability and reasonable cost for say an XF grade coin. SPANISH COLONY 8 Reales KM 106.2a Values | NGC (www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/mexico-spanish-colony-8-reales-km-106.2a-1785-1789-cuid-1119414-duid-1447131) Any thoughts or suggestions before I start digging in? Also, what about die varieties (in English) if I decide to look at some raw ones?

Next bender they will prolly sell it at a pawn shop for melt value.

The first one struck went for a ridiculous $80,000! And they are both bullion coins worth about $80. Somebody woke up the next day with a hangover wondering why they couldn't order Starbucks cause their bank account was drained.

Nice coin JP, with just a hint of toning. I just got my 1888 (P) Morgan also which was a bargain like yours, but I got a raw one. I think prices seem to be coming back down to reality. Also looks like we are both rapidly approaching the 1890's which for me with the complete set will have like 6 that are pretty pricy. Thats going to take a while shopping around for those.

Another option is to bring it to a good local coin dealer familiar with those coins if there is one around you and have them look at the coin in hand to give you some feedback as having a coin in hand is worth a thousand pictures.

I got my early half dollar die book back (5th Edition) and there is nothing there on describing the O-108A variety in terms of the type of 3, so it looks like the best is to just describe it as a Tampered 3 as stated on the USA Coin Book site.

I still want to further my knowledge about issue like this to both: (1) continue to learn and become a better collector; and (2) help in assessing where I may be considering say a cleaned raw coin at a significantly reduced price and really want to stay away from whizzed coins. It is really invaluable to have more experienced collectors to bounce things off, and I really appreciate the assistance.

You guys are into BU (British Unattractive) coins too! Go figure. [Joking about coins aside, condolences to our brethren across the pond.]

Yea, Nice!

Yea, I will get there eventually, but doing it a little differently. Currently working on breaking the MS ones into BU or Brilliant Unc (MS 60 to 62), Choice Unc (MS 63 to 64) and Gem Unc (MS 65 to 70) which are common dividers for MS coins descriptively including how NGC does adjectival grading discussed here ... https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/adjectival-grades/ So, I would have described your coin as Choice Unc and how I came up with that it may be MS 63 to 64 which is "close enough for gov work". There are also less common further adjectival dividers for the higher MS grades but I'm not there yet, and may not even bother with trying to get there with raw coins for a while as the ones I am interested in are either non-existent in the very highest MS grades or would be so ridiculously expensive it wouldn't matter to me much.