GoldFinger1969

On 7/22/2023 at 7:51 PM, VKurtB said:

By eliminating the geographical distance and knowledge between a nearly unlimited supply and VERY limited demand. I am COMPLETELY metal content agnostic, but only a fool would suggest there are lots of us. THERE AREN’T. 

We're not stamp collectors, and we always have the coin investor class (the PM investor class) willing to graduate and segue into pure numismatic collecting.  That's how I got into moderns, Morgans, and Saints. 

I don't think you can say that the Internet and Covid have NOT led to a resurgence somewhat in coin collecting, both numismatics and PM coins.  I see no rebound for stamp collecting in recent years....and sports cards and NFTs have definitely cooled from their bubblicious period in 2020-21...and I don't think 5,00 digital coins and tokens will still be standing in a few years, either.

Dealers say business is good.  Online auction houses are seeing record bidding activity, browsing, and registrations.  Big Coin Shows -- FUN, Long Beach, etc. -- have had great public attendance, great dealer table activity, and folks posting here as collectors or dealers (Charmy) say they were busy and profitable.

I think we're the Tortoise in this race.  Slow and steady....

On 7/22/2023 at 4:59 PM, VKurtB said:

Can I piggyback on your question? Who convinced you that looking for errors was a mainstream part of this hobby?

If that is addressed to me....I never said that.  Error collectors, the good ones, tend to be a highly-focused niche and very well-versed in numismatics.  In fact, there aren't many decent Error Threads here, ATS, or at CT.  It's very specialized.

We get more "I found this errror coin" threads or posts than any other Newbie misleading post/thread.  Heck, Sandon has created a How To link just for those posts !! 

On 7/22/2023 at 8:22 PM, RWB said:

That's a clear contamination spot likely deposited from dirty air.

Dirty air ?  You're not suggesting these things need to be sealed in a clean room, I hope !!  

What years is that NGC label from ?

On 7/22/2023 at 4:56 PM, World Colonial said:

No, dividing the series arbitrarily at 1964 makes no sense at all.  I pointed this out to CK during our first discussion on these topics back in 2013.

Wow, were we discussing/debating that 10 years ago ?  I need to get a life....

On 7/22/2023 at 4:56 PM, World Colonial said:

It's existed for decades, but in 2013 he told me he was looking for a radical change in collector preferences in 20 years.  This is one of the best pieces of evidence against his claims.  

Not my claim, but I do think we've seen SOME changes to an extent.  There's greater INTEREST in collecting, spurred on by stay-at-homes during Covid-19.  And I think that the bear market in Small U.S. Coins from 2013-20 validated some of his thesis.  But no great interest in the coins he talks about or collects, though it's only been since 2020.

The coin hobby today is DEFINITELY different than 2013.  Back then, I was eBay 100% of the time for online stuff.  Now it's down to about 5% with HA, GC, and SB the bulk.  The number of online bidders at HA, SB, and newly-created GC has skyrocketed in 10 years, WC.

On 7/22/2023 at 5:00 PM, World Colonial said:

He also implied that the 70-D Kennedy half (a common coin) in MS-66 should be worth a lot more than the $200-$300 it sold for at the time.

What's it sell for now ?

On 7/22/2023 at 5:06 PM, World Colonial said:

The only change in demographics that is likely to matter is ethnicity.  That's what the evidence shows. In the US, that's an increasing proportion of non-Europeans and especially non-Anglos who by any sensible expectation will collect US coinage in (much) lower proportion versus now, even more so versus the 60's with the internet.  This is at least equally true for US moderns.

I do think this is a fair point.  

On 7/22/2023 at 5:06 PM, World Colonial said:

Demographic turnover has a minimal to nonexistent impact on collector preferences.  There is no evidence of this anywhere.  Collectors essentially have the same preferences now which they had in 1965. There is also a big difference between "investor" coins and all others.

Wait...are you saying demographics/ethnicity DOESN'T matter or it does ?  Or are you saying if new ethnic groups collect, they'll collect just like Anglos 50-60 years prior ?

I mention investor coins because for some coins -- gold and silver, notably -- you can collect AND invest in precious metals at the same time.  The "Eliasberg Exception" for the masses !! 

On 7/22/2023 at 5:09 PM, World Colonial said:

The internet is going to reduce set collecting of common coins even more in the future than it has now, at "meaningful" prices. Yes, that's practically all 20th century to date US series.  Excludes gold, Morgan and maybe Peace dollars.

Why do you say that ?  Are you predicting better information transmission about pricing and availability....new hoards....what ?  How would the internet reduce set collecting and also depress prices ? 

On 7/22/2023 at 4:16 PM, RWB said:

Reports were given to newspapers by banks. It was commonplace to distribute false and misleading public info. or to delay announcing shipments until after arrival in London.

Was that to prevent theft or attempted robberies by disclosing confidential shipping information...or because it was sensitive information as to who was losing/gaining gold in the financial markets?

On 7/22/2023 at 2:45 PM, VKurtB said:

It's not too much of an exaggeration to say that nearly all pre-1934 U.S.gold coins that exist today are the result of illicit activity. Yes, I'm aware of the 1933 "exceptions", but that is a TINY percentage. 

FDR's edicts did not say that foreign banks or foreign citizens had an obligation to turn in American gold coins.  The prohibition applied to U.S. citizens.

I'd say, off the top of my head, that of the nearly 4 MM Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles, probably 90% or more were repatriated from foreign countries.  I have never read anything that says that wealthy Americans stored large gold holdings overseas.  In fact, the "Eliasberg Exception" -- collecting numismatic coins as a way to hold gold -- was far easier and simpler than storing in a foreign bank you knew nothing about and might not be able to visit for months or years.

On 7/22/2023 at 3:27 PM, powermad5000 said:

@EagleRJO, it happened to me as well, a few years after my coin was put into an NGC holder. On one of my last times at the safety deposit box while I was doing some choices for removal to sell to make space for higher dollar coins, I noticed my non proof 1972 S silver Ike had developed a milk spot. It was disappointing to see on a very choice MS 68 coin.

So the coin developed the spot after decades, huh ?  That's a bit unusual, from what I have read.

On 7/22/2023 at 12:53 PM, Jake7419 said:

Thank you very much. Very disappointing though. I thought I found something. I will keep on looking. I didnt know that kind of damage could be done to a quarter. Thank you again for your time. 

Just curious....are you deliberately looking for "error" coins or did you just find this and stumble upon the possibility of it being an error ?

We get so many people here convinced they found a valuable error coin...and yet there is so much more fun in just collecting regular, silver, or gold coins. 

On 7/22/2023 at 11:25 AM, RWB said:

Side Bar ---When gold bullion was deposited at one mint, then transferred to a different mint it was called a "redeposit." This avoided the error of counting the same deposit twice. Treasury/Mints used "transfer orders" to ship bullion or coins from one location to another.Also, the New York Assay Office was the only AO with active refining capability. They acted as an adjunct to the Philadelphia Mint. NYAO accepted deposits of gold and silver, did the refining, and shipped the bars to Philadelphia. The Mint paid for the bars in coins which NYAO then used to pay depositors or sell for Gold Certificates. The Bullion Fund at each facility held enough coin to moderate most transactions so that depositors were paid immediately.

I see news articles in your book and Bowers LH DE book that gold was sent to Europe/London by Wall Street firms (secrecy regarding location and amount, interesting !).  I would guess the NY AO played a roll here ?  

Not sure if gold went directly from Philadelphia to Europe/London ?

On 7/22/2023 at 10:07 AM, ldhair said:

The 1995-W Proof Silver Eagle is an interesting coin. It came free with the gold proof set. I believe the issue price was $999. The price of the set went to almost 10K but dropped like a rock. Later it went back up with the price of gold.  

When did it go up to $10,000 ?  Was that after 2000 when the gold price went up and everybody realized they needed the 1995-W if they wanted a complete set of ASEs ?

I believe a top 1995-W (DMPL, PF70, etc.) went for $86,000 like a decade ago or so.  Price came down alot.....I think you can get 69's and 70's for $5,000 give-or-take today.  I'll let an ASE expert chime in. 

On 7/22/2023 at 8:05 AM, Tony Follis said:

A couple of my NGC MS70 burnished ASE's also have a small (bearly noticable) "Milk spot". If I'm understanding everything correctly most if not all modern silver coinage will eventually develop these spots due to the minting process.

Not necessarily....it is kind of random.  I think the one safeguard might be to buy one a few years AFTER striking.  If they haven't developed the spots by then, the chances they will are very much reduced.

On 7/22/2023 at 12:33 AM, VKurtB said:

Right NOW, the British Royal Mint in Llantrisant, Wales (The one on London's Tower Hill stopped in 1971.) strikes coins for in excess of 80 nations, many of which are former Commonwealth countries, but SOME which have NO past association with the U.K.  Outsourcing coin production is as common as Philadelphia cents. Even Belgium strikes euros for several euro nations.

That makes sense....Mexico, with its up-and-down relationship to her large neighbor to the north, was more surprising to me outsourcing mintage to the U.S.

On 7/22/2023 at 12:13 AM, Just Bob said:

That "some guy" was Thomas L. Elder, writer, publisher, dealer, and producer of tokens and medals, and one of the organizers of the New York Numismatic Club. (J Sanford Saltus was also a founding member. Look him up for a tale of misadventure.) 

Tom Delorey (CaptHenway)_ has written a book cataloguing his tokens.

Yes, he was apparently well-known in the numismatic community as you cited.  I had never seen his name before.  Well, I'm in good company -- Max Mehl apparently forgot he auctioned off the coin in 1920 when he was doing a listing in 1944 !! 

Interesting life Elder lived....he was the telegraph guy who gave updates on the condition of President McKinley for 8 days until his death when he was attacked by that anarchist in 1902.  TR succeeded McKinley, of course. 

Who knows how numismatic history is different if McKinely had remained president instead of Teddy ?

Another important indicator of coin collector interest or at least general Type Collecing.......the admittedly high (said here numerous times ) price of an MCMVII High Relief Saint....there's 8,000 of these coins available but as I've been told repeatedly here, they sell at a relatively high price for one that is readily available.

But that demand is almost all certainly from coin collectors, if not strictly Saint or DE collectors.  I doubt artistic non-coin collectors are tracking the price and supply availability of High Reliefs.  As with special modern new Mint offerings, if you create something worth buying, they will come.  Whether modern ASEs or classic High Reliefs.

On 7/20/2023 at 6:16 PM, cladking said:

I meant there are only a few thousand advanced collectors of moderns.  Most modern collectors are beginners or intermediate.  ...Many many thousands of them.  Millions counting states quarter collectors.  

OK, I get it.  But I would go somewhere in between thousands of "advanced" and millions of State Quarter kid collectors.

Based on the demand for new Mint specialities like the V-privy coins and the 2019-S Enhanced ASE, I would say there are at least TENS of thousands of intermediate/advanced collectors of moderns, maybe even hundreds of thousands. 

On 7/21/2023 at 7:28 AM, Nate Norris said:

I'm pretty new to collecting and in looking around at different coins, especially early/older coins, I've noticed that all of them have different attributes, even those in the same grade. So what do you personally look for when adding a coin to your collection? What is the sweet spot for grades? For coins in the same grade, what makes one stand out over the other to you? 

I recommend watching (and maybe participating in) LIVE auctions and seeing coins, including ones you follow and/or bid on. The live weekly Heritage Auctions are a blast, the more Ebay-like Great Collections auctions (which usually almost end on a Sunday night) are also instructive. 

Fascinating and you can see how your skills match up with the prices paid for various grades. 

Ian, will my login to GC work for MyCollect ? 

On 7/20/2023 at 11:42 PM, Conder101 said:

For the 1971 to late 20 teens no.  Most of them sell for less than their issue price (mintages were high, in the 2 to 4 million range).  But for the past few years the mintages of the proof sets have dropped so low that they  now hold their value or even go up in value.(mintages as low as around 750,000 sets.)  

Wow....that was when I was getting them for Christmas, Bdays, etc.  

So you're saying hardly any or NONE of those proof or mint sets since 1971 have really appreciated at all ?  

On 7/21/2023 at 9:12 AM, Nate Norris said:

I'm looking to add a draped bust quarter and a capped bust quarter. For the draped bust, I'd probably be looking around VF20 and for the capped bust around AU55. These grades obviously aren't perfect and the coins themselves are a few hundred years old, so all of them look different. I'm trying to get a feel for what people like and don't like in these older coins, especially when you're choosing between different imperfections.

Lots of veterans here who should be able to give you some good advice.  Good Luck !! 

On 7/21/2023 at 7:28 AM, Nate Norris said:

I'm pretty new to collecting and in looking around at different coins, especially early/older coins, I've noticed that all of them have different attributes, even those in the same grade. So what do you personally look for when adding a coin to your collection? What is the sweet spot for grades? For coins in the same grade, what makes one stand out over the other to you? 

I collect Saint-Gaudens gold coins (infrequently, given the cost  ) and Morgan Silver Dollars....commemoratives (more silver than gold)...and anything else that strikes my fancy.

I am partial to reverse proofs.  I'll pay up for a PF-70 or MS-70 but if the price savings on a 69 is big enough or for a 2nd or 3rd purchase, I'm going to drop down a notch in quality.

When dealing with classic coins, I am more tolerant of bag marks than noticeable dings on the edge or fields/devices.  AU-58 coins sometimes look better than low-60's coins, something we've talked about many times in these forums.

It might pay if you narrowed down the coin type since what applies to modern or recent coins in the last 40 years might not apply to classic gold or silver or small denomination coins. 

On 7/21/2023 at 10:57 AM, VKurtB said:

Yup, ATS provides more complete garbage than shows up here. Volume does not imply quality content. Many of the better posters here do post ATS, but by concentrating here I can get the same “wheat” with far less “chaff”. And I get to avoid ATS’s corporate parochialism.

For stuff I am interested in -- Saints, Morgans, coin price trends, etc. -- NGC beats PCGS hands-down.

There are some veterans with great stories and information to tell ATS but the volume of posts there means its harder to find unless you are in the middle of a hot thread and they are posting concurrently.

I see someone like EC posting ATS and in the CAC Forums and that's good information to gather since he doesn't post as often here.  OTOH, there's NOTHING like the 80-pages-and-counting RWB Saints Book Thread we have here (which includes the author himself, of course ).  Searching "Saints" and the like I find 3-4 year old threads ATS that don't have any substantive back-and-forth.  Ditto other coins.

I think the other sites you have dealers and collectors talking their books and recent sales/activity...here....we have more people discussing the hobby, the coins, trends, history, etc.

JMHO.

On 7/20/2023 at 1:04 PM, Coinbuf said:

But I've watched several of the members of your new site while a member of this and other coin forums over the past 20+ years.  So, while they may not be doing those things now while the site is in startup mode, some of those individuals have been less than accepting of forum members who don't align with their beliefs and thinking.  Tigers don't change their stripes, I'll bet that most will return to how they have acted towards anyone that they disagree with.  Especially as they now have power over the group they have started in a way they don't have in a forum setting.

That's interesting, CB.  To me, having a diversity of opinions and back-and-forth disagreements is one of the reasons I post on Forums and sites like this.  If everyone agreed with all of my points and opinions, what's the point of posting ?

I wonder if some individauls are either "talking their book" and defending coins and positions that could cost them $$$....or some people are just so convinced they are right.  I have seen a bit of that among economic, financial, and PM posts ATS....I see the same half-truths and falsehoods spread that I see in the media picked up by people not as discriminating as I am. 

Final interesting nuggets and factoids from QDB's Liberty Head DE book.  If you want more, you'll have to get the book ! 

• John M. Clapp, Pennsylvania oil man, orders complete current coins from all the U.S. Mints in 1893 – Philadelphia, Carson City, and San Francisco – the earliest recorded focus on mint markings by a collector.

• While artistry on coins was lacking, on “Educational Notes” for $1, $2, and $5 in 1895 currency.....they had beautiful workmanship.

• 1897:  Klondike Strike in Canadian Yukon and Alaska brought new gold ounces to U.S.

• 1897:  Treasury held $152 MM in gold coin…..National Banks held $188 MM…..circulated/private hands about $240 MM.  Exports were $23.6 MM and imports were $57.7 MM.

• 1899:  First time gold coinage was over $100 MM at $111 MM.  Cripple Creek, Klondike, and other areas pushed it over that threshold.

• 1899:  Treasury had $257 MM in gold…..NatBanks had $203 MM…..circulation/private hands $293 MM.  All gold in America was just under $900 MM.

• ANA blamed stamp collecting for the drop-off in coin interest.

• William Jennings Bryan lost to President McKinley, repeat of his 1896 loss, ending the Free Silver movement. 

• March 14, 1900:  Gold Standard Act passed.  Repealed by FDR 33 years later. 

• 1900:  Treasury had $328 MM and the entire country had $989 MM in gold coinage.  $8.7 MM in gold coins imported, $30.7 MM exported.

• The Double Eagle was the international standard of commerce….often melted in England but bagged in other European countries and stored in bank vaults.

• From 1862-79, the governments custom revenues were collected in gold.  Gold collected was $633 MM and currency received was $526 MM a 20% premium.

• 1901:  New Philadelphia Mint opens.  Can hold $112 MM in MSDs.  Over 1,500 tons of steel were used to construct the vaults.

• 1902:  Colorado (1.2 MM ounces), California (800K ounces), Alaska (400K ounces), and South Dakota (336K ounces) were the leading gold-producing states.   The Klondike region continued to produce, though not at the top level.

• The term "Teddy Bear" was created.  A bear cub was strapped to a tree so President Teddy Roosevelt could get a photo-op as they couldn't get a real bear in a hunt. 

• 1904:  $233 MM in DEs were struck (6.3 MM in Philly, 5.1 MM in SanFran).

• Average age of ANA members was 38.5 years in 1902.

• ANA Membership in 1903 was 450 memebers.   

• 1904 Gold Production: $233 MM in gold coins face value…..11.4 MM Double Eagles with about 6.3 MM from Philadelphia and 5.1 MM from SanFran.

• 1904 Silver Authorization for Morgan Dollars expired.  No more Morgans !!  

• The ice cream cone was invented at the 1904 World’s Fair in St. Louis when an ice cream stand ran out of dishes and a nearby pastry maker rolled wafers into ice cream holders.

• The San Francisco Mint survived the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake.  It was the only financial institution left intact.

• The Denver Mint commenced operations in 1906.  The Clark, Gruber & Co. operations that had been called a Denver mint saw no federal coins struck there since 1862.

• 1907:  The Liberty Head Double Eagle was in the last year of production.

• Treasury held $788.5 MM in gold coins, National Banks held $203.3 MM, and others/circulating was $458 MM.

• JP Morgan and Hetty Green (Colonel EHR Green’s mother, aka The Witch of Wall Street), helped arrest The Panic of 1907 following the failure of Knickerbocker Trust.

On 7/20/2023 at 9:48 PM, RWB said:

Huh ....? Not understood.

Is that letter implying that over half of the gold was stolen since it never got made into coins ?  I can't believe that....nothing I've read elsewhere implies anywhere near that level of theft or waste.