GoldFinger1969

1930-S Double Eagle: Here's something you don't see too often.....an AG-03 CAC for a 1930-S that looks REALLY circulated. 

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1298989/1930-S-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-AG-03-CAC-Green

I'm kind of surprised that it goes for about the asking price of $60,000 maybe a bit less....I would think that any serious collector who can afford that amount will just pay up 2-3x to get one closer to EF or AU.

Do people really go down that far in quality for Saints and other valuable coins ?

I think maybe they thought it was due for a minor change ?  Have the AGEs been unchanged for over 30 years since they were re-introduced in the 1980's ?

Final Hoard commentaries, 1930-33:

1930-S:  4 Wittlin coins from European private hands but not a commercial hoard.

There was no demand for double eagles in the Depression Era economy and it is virtually certain that all the coins held in Mint vaults were later melted into gold bars, after the Gold Recall of 1933. Very few examples have been repatriated from European holdings, and those coins were probably from private collections, not the result of international commerce. In his Handbook of 20th Century United States Gold Coins, David Akers notes: 

"The 1930-S is by far the rarest of the 1929-1932 issues in this series and, discounting the essentially uncollectible 1933, only the 1927-D is rarer when we consider the entire Saint-Gaudens series." 

PCGS CoinFacts estimates the surviving population of the 1930-S at 50-75 examples in all grades. PCGS and NGC have combined to certify a total of 69 examples between them, including an unknown number of resubmissions and crossovers (8/19). Roger Burdette notes nine coins are held in institutional collections, including three in the Smithsonian and one in the ANS.

Akers:  "....Paul Wittlin, for example, the buyer in Europe for James Kelly and later Paramount for over 20 years, had the best connections with the major banks of anyone, and if 1930-S double eagles were there to be found, he would have bought them. I am not absolutely certain that he didn't find one or more examples of the 1930-S but, from the records of his purchases that I saw, I don't recall even one in any of the shipments he sent back to the U.S."

1931:  Treasurer’s office in Washington DC had names and addresses of direct purchasers of Double Eagles. RWB's DE book traces a few coins back to their original owners. The table provides the name, city of residence, date of purchase and quantity purchased for 1931.  Most are mail-order sales (not in-person).

Additionally, fifty pieces were released from the Treasurer’s Office to the Treasury Cashier in Washington, DC where they were used as part of normal counter cash. Over-the-counter purchases made with gold certificates likely transpired between July 28, 1932 and the end of February 1933. These coins were either taken abroad or kept unobtrusively in the U.S. This might also be the source of a small group of coins discovered in the 1980s, or of pieces that came on the market via James G. Macallister, Max Berenstein and Jack Rubin in 1936.

The table in Roger's book includes only coins that can be identified and not anonymous sales.  22 sold directly with names/addresses.

Nearly all known 1931 double eagles are uncirculated with a preponderance of them grading MS63 or better. It is much more rare in terms of overall population rarity than the 1929, numerous hoards of which have been uncovered in Europe since the 1950s while very few examples, if any, of the 1931 were ever found from similar sources.

1931-D:  In the early-1950s small quantities of the 1931-D first began showing up in European banks. Over the next two decades, a couple of mini-hoards of the '31-D were discovered, but relatively few of these pieces graded better than Choice Uncirculated and the majority were heavily marked and / or lackluster. Despite the emergence of a hoard of 15-20 pieces in 1984, the 1931-D continues to hold its place as the second rarest Saint-Gaudens double eagle from the Denver Mint today.

1980’s repatriation from Europe but maybe domestically sourced.  Small hoards.   Bauman @ MTB said he knew of a 40-50 coin hoard.  1984 mini-hoard of 15-20 coins.  Mostly MS63/65 and a few gems.

In 1984 a small group of fifteen to twenty 1931-Ds surfaced in the numismatic market. Discovery of those new coins brought the population of the 1931-D into close alignment with double eagles of 1931 and 1932.

In a survey of 152 auctions from 1937 to 1944, there were only three appearances of the 1931-D. The first was in Morgenthau’s New York Collection, Part II in 1939 [Sale Number 399 (Morgenthau, 5/1939).

At the time of the 1984 find, Heritage Auctions Co-Chairman Jim Halperin stated,

David Akers commented in the Heritage Duckor Collection catalog:

Among the five famous late date Saint-Gaudens issues, the 1931-D is the fourth rarest overall, more rare than only the 1929 in terms of the total number of pieces known. This is due to the discovery of a number of MS62 to MS64 examples that were found in small hoards over the past 30 years (1982-2012). Gerald Bauman, former Chief Numismatist of MTB, also once assured me that he knew of the existence of a hoard consisting of approximately 40-50 examples of the 1931-D of similar quality to the earlier hoards but I do not know whether or not that group has been sold since that time. Although only fourth in terms of population rarity among the late dates, the 1931-D is exceeded in rarity only by the 1930-S in gem MS65 condition while in superb MS66 condition the 1931-D is perhaps the rarest.

Until recently the 1931-D was considered rarer than the 1931 and 1932. Then a small hoard appeared in Zurich, making it more available than previously thought. The story (as far as it is known) was told in last year's FUN Signature, which we repeat here:

"In 1982, Akers reported the 1931-D was the fourth-rarest date in the series, with perhaps 35-40 examples known, considerably more elusive than its Philadelphia counterparts from 1931 and 1932. This situation changed in 1984, when a small hoard of 15-20 1931-Ds surfaced in the numismatic market. The discovery of those new coins brought the population of the 1931-D into close alignment with the 1931 and 1932.

"Heritage Co-Chairman Jim Halperin states, 'When the hoard appeared I quickly adjusted my thinking regarding their market value as a result of the sudden spurt in availability ... I think they were mostly 63-64 quality with maybe a few Gems.' The hoard was reported as a Midwestern find by Walter Breen, but Marc Emory, the Director of European Operations for Heritage, remembers handling a few of the last, not from the Midwest. Breen may have confused the 1931-D group with a hoard of 1928 double eagles (25 pieces in an original bank bag) that surfaced in 1985 in Elyria, Ohio."

1932:  Spencer S. March Hoard of Newark, NJ (50 coins belonging to NJ banker).  Del Valle / Beverly Hills SDB has 1 1932 coin stored for 40 years found in 2013.

Three times the number of 1931 coins were distributed from the Treasurer than for 1932-dated pieces. However, a much greater percentage of 1932 double eagles appear to have survived the ravages of time. The result is that the two coins have similar populations of existing pieces and thus appear to have similar origins. The fifty-coin “hoard” owned by Spencer S. Marsh (Sr.) of Newark NJ is probably the source of the best-preserved pieces.

Tom DeLory relates how he examined a small hoard of individual double eagles in Chicago in July 1986. Among many common date coins were one each 1927-S, 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D and 1932. The entire collection eventually we purchased and it was dispersed at the 1986 ANA convention in Milwaukee.

113 double eagles paid out with addresses and names.   

Hoards in Europe and later Central America, but not the 1932 and so the perceived rarity of the 1932 in comparison to other issues went up considerably. Now, it is the third rarest regular issue date in the entire series after the 1927-D and 1930-S when only the total known population is considered. In terms of only the five late dates, it is considered the second most rare after the 1930-S but perhaps the most "common" of the five in gem MS65 and superb MS66 condition although the 1931 is similarly rare at both those grade levels.

1933:  Langbord Hoard, currently in Fort Knox.

I do think that there should be some financial disclosure, especially for the elderly, to make sure that people who can't afford it aren't being swindled or even taking too much risk even if risks/fees are disclosed.

My father bought several thousand dollars worth of these worthless commemoratives of military and history events.  Nice mementos, just not worth thousands of dollars for their value.  Since I manage my parent's assets, I put a stop to this but once my father's condition deteriorated it would have posed a threat if it was just him and/or him and my mom.  Before that, he was OK mentally and bought them for his kids and grandkids even though he probably realized they weren't a good "investment" -- he just liked their designs and gave them to us as mementos, Christmas presents, etc.

That said, the markup on coins on those infomercials are often 25-35%.  Though there you are buying quality coins, just way over FMV.

On 8/4/2023 at 5:45 PM, RWB said:

That's what the FTC suit is about - failure to disclose fees, misleading and false information.

I'll have to see the specifics.  Sometimes these are shakedown suits by the SEC and FTC.  I do agree, at first glance, it does appear that there are high fees embedded in their sale.

You don't really think that an MS-70 coin from that long ago even exists ? 

We can't find anything that's a 70 going back before about 1960, I believe, for U.S. Small Denomination coins.  And you say you can't find anything higher than MS-67 for the Roosters, right ?

Even the preserved MCMVII UHR Saints can't top PF-69.  And those go back about the same time as your Rooster search, to 1907.

On 8/4/2023 at 11:28 AM, RWB said:

Nondisclosure of material facts, however, is fraud.

Yes it is....which facts left out ?  

On 8/3/2023 at 3:34 PM, VKurtB said:

What took the FTC so long? All those celebrity gold hawkers need to be criminally charged. They’re no better than Samuel Bankman-Fried’s co-conspirators. I read that Tom Brady was paid a “commission” for his ads, and he’s out some ridiculous number of millions of dollars on the FTX debacle. He deserves it. So does Matt Damon. So do these FOX network gold hawking celebs. 

Hawking gold, even overpriced gold, is NOT a crime.  Caveat Emptor and do you own DD.

SBF co-mingled accounts, misled regulators, and lied about positions.  While we need a final accounting, billions apparently were lost/lent out.

No comparison.

On 8/2/2023 at 5:42 PM, Coinbuf said:

Better eyes might help, but actual knowledge is what is needed here.   To the op, your coin most likely was cleaned at some time in the past, just not harshly as wrongly suggested by an unknowledgeable poster.   From your photos I see no reason it would not grade in the XF perhaps even AU range, in hand I might have a different opinion.

You folks are pretty much in agreement it was cleaned, but still think it will be graded ? 

Maybe the WaPo and other media outlets can do something about the Pension Ponzi Scheme that the American taxpayers are going to have to bail out.  We just gave the Teamsters $36 BB.

These companies are garbage or deceptive at best....but these "investors" didn't do their DD and quite frankly probably would have lost their $$$ to other shysters.  

On 7/31/2023 at 7:13 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

Take the coin back to your seller and mention our problems with the coin.  See what he says. 

I'd be curious if he would give you your money back or buy it back. 

I'd be bidding on that Bass MCMVII UHR !! 

On 8/1/2023 at 7:44 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Today, the .999 fine gold coins weighing 3/4 oz. troy have since settled to melt which was close to $2,000.

They should be selling for $1,500 or so, right ?

Let's take it up to 1930 with the next-to-last batch of hoards by date:

1927:   "....An examination of pre-1960 auction listings is instructive; the earliest auction record in the David Akers United States Gold Coins reference, the 1941 Dunham Collection sold by B. Max Mehl, is listed in the catalog as "very scarce," and Stack's used an identical phrase to describe the issue in 1944 for the J.F. Bell auction catalog. The impact of 1960s repatriation is especially noticeable in the auction records compiled by Akers: The trickle of auction appearances in the 1940's and 1950s, fewer than one a year for each decade, turns into a steady stream through the 1960s and then a torrent in the 1970s." 

1927-D:  Not a single 1927-D ever turned up in any overseas hoards. It appears that most of the surviving 1927-D double eagles ultimately derive from collectors who obtained them directly from the Denver Mint or the Treasurer’s office in Washington.  In the 1940s, the 1924-S and 1926-D were perceived as the ultimate rarities of the Saint-Gaudens series, and when those dates became more available due to European finds, the previously unappreciated 1927-D was waiting to assume the mantle.

1927-S:   Only a small number of examples surfaced in European holdings in the 1950s.  David Akers, a principal of the Paramount International Coin Company, was privy to many records of transactions between Jim Kelly and Paul Wittlin, who was the main conduit for bringing European holdings to the U.S. coin market. In Price List 8 (Paramount,1974), Akers made the following observations about the 1927-S:

"This is the first example of this rare date that we have owned in several years and even when we were regularly receiving shipments of rare double eagles from our European buyer Paul Wittlin, the 1927-S was conspicuous by its absence although in such shipments we received as many as six 1921's at one time or two 1870-CC's, or half a dozen 1891's! Of course, the days of such shipments are far behind us and will never be repeated again, but the fact remains that even in those bountiful days the 1927-S was seldom sent to us and this is a strong indicator of the coin's rarity."

In the 1950s one or two pieces at a time of the 1927-S began to show up in European gold holdings. But, unlike the 1922-S and 1926-S, it never appeared in quantity, and its rarity status has remained constant through the years. There were enough returned from Europe, however, to greatly alter the overall population rarity of the 1927-S. Now, instead of only 10-12 known, there are more like 150-200, meaning the 1927-S is considered moderately rare today rather than the great rarity it once was thought to be.

1928:  Roughly half of the 1928 mintage was released to Federal Reserve Banks for commercial distribution in the year of production. But, approximately $50,000,000 was shipped from the mint in small quantities and much of it likely ended up in private hoards in Europe, South America and Canada. Foreign hoarding and low domestic interest rates combined to increase overseas demand for U.S. gold coins. But 1928 would be the last year until 1932 of substantial export of gold coins.

The great equalizer (or perhaps great randomizer) is the pattern of international commerce that sent millions of gold coins overseas and out of the reach of the Roosevelt Administration's gold recall. The pattern was centered on the Northeast and the great commercial nexus of New York City, and double eagles from the nearby Philadelphia Mint were far more likely to survive in European storage (the greatest source of repatriation) than were coins from mountainous Denver or Pacific-facing San Francisco. Time, too, has its role: The 1927 double eagle saw widespread overseas use, but the 1928 twenty had less opportunity for a commercial jaunt before the debilitating Great Depression of 1929. The 1928 is the last issue to be available in type quantities, and any later-dated coin is a melt rarity commanding a five-figure price.

1929:  80 coins found in 1980’s, another 10 in 1990’s.  1984 “English Hoard” was fake from Fenton to Gillio to Breen. Numerous hoards of 1929’s have been uncovered in Europe since the 1950s while very few examples, if any, of the 1931 were ever found from similar sources.

This is no doubt due to the significant number of specimens returned from Europe over the years; many more examples of the 1929 were found there than of the other four later dates. However, back in the 1940s, when dealers were really just starting to get a handle on the relative rarity of the various Saint-Gaudens issues (they knew mintage figures were of no use in that regard), the 1929 was thought to be much less rare than the 1931-D and 1930-S but otherwise comparable to both the 1931 and 1932. Today, estimates vary wildly as to how many 1929 double eagles exist. PCGS estimates the population at over 900 pieces and Dave Bowers states in his double eagle book that 1,250 to 1,750 exist. Those numbers seem awfully high to some who would place the number more in the 300-400 range.

1929 saw continued contraction in gold coin exports and a surge in loan repayments from South America. Total gold coin exports sank from $143,190,361 in 1928 to just $7,145,103 in 1929.

Tobias, is this a coin you personally own ?  I presume it is raw ?

Where and when did you buy it, if it is yours ?

Nice-looking coin, as Cape Busts are not my area of knowledge, I won't venture a grading guess.

Re-posting the same information doesn't make it right !!

You've let exuberance and misinformation lead you to faulty conclusions. 

Where did you find these pennies and WHO told you they were valuable ?  

On 7/31/2023 at 8:42 AM, smashan8 said:

I see where you are coming from. And thank you for the help. I'll be sure to check out the other forum posts on this site. 

Research other historic coin types here:  Small Denomination U.S. coinage....Morgan Silver Dollars.....Gold coins including Double Eagles.

Lots of options to collect and learn. 

On 7/31/2023 at 7:13 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

Let the seller tell you or better yet GET IT IN WRITING that the coin was not cleaned and he will reimburse you if a TPG says it was in fact cleaned.

Lots of "trusted collectors" either don't know (and get it wrong) or do know AND LIE about a coin's condition.  Sometimes they just get it wrong because they are fooled.

But if you paid a nice premium for this coin and was told it wasn't cleaned and was AU or MS, you should have recourse to get your money back IMO if the guy is as "trusted" and legit as you say he is.

Good Luck ! 

Where did you find these pennies and WHO told you they were valuable ?  

Where did you buy this coin and for how much ?

On 7/29/2023 at 5:44 PM, powermad5000 said:

This phenomenon you speak of is a problem in this hobby.

It seems to be growing....exponentially !! 

On 7/30/2023 at 3:38 PM, JKK said:

Who cares why? ot saying this to be rude to you, of course, just being very candid and offering some critical thought. When someone comes here to waste our time and demand confirmation of their pareidolia, I don't care if they did it because they had a nosebleed, found a parking lot nickel, or saw something on allwetsy and decided they could get rich. I don't care and I don't see why anyone does. Once they prove this, why waste time trying to convince them? Who benefits? Not them. Not us. Not NGC. No one. They should be put on ignore posts and left to scream into the void. If you actually do care on reflection, for real and for true, then that's a personal decision and not for me to critique. I might not understand it, but I don't have to understand, and I accept that. But if we really don't care, let's show it. And I'm proposing that after a certain point, we should seriously consider ceasing to care. Or rather, I've already stopped caring and I hope others will join me in apathy. There are other people worth bothering with who are not pareidoliacs. I see nothing gained by taking attention and teaching from them and giving it to ingrates. This board wastes so vulgar_term_for_copulation_in_present_participle much time on ingrates, it's the functional equivalent of giving drug addicts free money.

I don't think we are upset with folks ASKING about what they think might be something unusual and/or valuable.

But in most of these cases, what they are WRITING about and POSTING here is totally at odds with the pictures they post.  It's not like they found a 1927 Saint common DE and they immediately think it's the ultra-valuable and ultra-rare 1927-D.  But most of these threads involve pics where what they claim to see or have found is NOT what their pics are showing.

Many of the posters here -- notably Sandon -- have been very generous in responding to the SAME gross misevaluation of the coins that again, their own submitted pics disprove.  What they are seeing I don't know.

Zadok, I have to believe Heritage is including those who buy a Saint to get 1 ounce of gold (well, 0.9675 ounces !).  Many might have NO IDEA what they own, just that it's a gold coin.

My clients in the 1990's were buying Saints and maybe Liberty's from Blanchard and I had no idea what they were at the time (maybe they didn't, either).  My ignorance and idiocy..... I could have been buying Saints at 1/3rd the price I paid 20 years later !! 

Heritage says:  "...Today, double eagles and silver dollars, the two largest regular issue coins of the United States, are collected by more individuals than any other single denomination, regardless of metallic composition."

If that is true -- and I guess it depends on what you consider a "collector" (active ?  how active ?  how many coins ?) -- I assumed that (especially for DEs) that their cost meant that there had to be more Small U.S. Denomination collectors (Pennies, Nickles, Quarters, Halfs, etc.).   I guess I was wrong.

If it IS true, it's surprising on the DE end.  I am NOT surprised if Morgans are the most popular series, because the entry bar is much lower.

Anybody think that DE collectors could be more popular than we think ?  Or maybe Heritage is including the investor class for DEs which gives it a leg-up on other coins ?