GoldFinger1969

On 3/1/2022 at 4:48 PM, RWB said:

The Wells Frago and other similar instances are object lessons -- get the information while it's fresh. Each delay loses content and quality.

I still can't believe that by 2012 that key information on the 1983 MTB Hoard wasn't stored digitally somewhere, especially as Bauman got up there in age and Akers got sick. 

Damn......

On 3/1/2022 at 4:46 PM, RWB said:

The King Farouk export letter exists and license. There's no secret about it - never has been. Copies filed with Fenton case.

No, I meant we didn't know about it until Fenton's lawyer found it.  I didn't mean it was hidden now -- just not known (MAYBE hidden, but probably just not known) back in the 1990's.

I just typed unclearly, Roger. 

On 3/1/2022 at 6:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Gold has absolutely zero relevance to anything in my life. Class of 1955. All those other things you mentioned do.  Now it DOES have relevance to the “ancient” history of my civilization - exactly NONE of it good or worth celebrating. I do own one Swiss 10 gram bar, bought in Switzerland and brought back BEFORE it was legal again stateside. The old man was a badass. He ALSO was a high school dropout. 

Like I said, to each his own.  Reminds me of that Reece's Peanut Butter Cup commercial from the early-1970's.

On 3/1/2022 at 4:18 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I must have lost track but what does all this have to do with the Wells Fargo Hoard?  

I am going to try and find some stuff from the NARA portal tonight on the WF Hoard and also the 1983 MTB Hoard.  Will report back....I usually have trouble navigating around that thing, so who knows if I'll get anywhere.

On 3/1/2022 at 4:18 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I must have lost track but what does all this have to do with the Wells Fargo Hoard?  Speaking of Saints I have a Patron Saint; does that count?

We keep going off the rails here, more than a defective luge track at the Olympics. 

At least the 1933 debate concerns the Langboard Hoard, if you call it that.  Not sure what economics does.

On 3/1/2022 at 3:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Sooooo many normalized 1932 activities were STRICTLY prohibited by the FDR orders. I don’t see why this evades you. Why would THIS ONE THING be an exception? It’s not credible. 

Suppose I worked at the Philly Mint and wanted a few 1933's for myself or my coin contacts.  I don't have the money at that time.  My supervisor tells me as long as we have the coins in-house, I can exchange at any time since I didn't have the $$$ or coins a bit earlier in late-March/early-April 1933.

Well ?

Especially once it was apparent we wouldn't be striking gold coins for a while after all the EOs and pronouncements and I realize that the $20 Double Eagle can probably fetch $35 or so from my cointacts.

What I wrote on the other thread:

You're free to not value it as highly as some of us.  But I think most of us believe there's definite worth in assembling this research and hidden gems and putting it into easily-accessible notes, books, articles, etc.

Taken to your logical extreme, all the information on everything is already out there....so nobody should write about anything since they're just "regurgitating" what is already out there.

Quality original research is always good.  Might not be your cup of tea, I admit.  I'm not into some of Roger's topics or books (like Peace Dollars) but I wouldn't say it is junk just because I don't like it.  Someone might say the same thing about his Saints book that I love.

On 3/1/2022 at 2:37 PM, VKurtB said:

I really hope there is more like this. I don’t like the options for their absence. None of what follows are even suggested facts - merely scenarios that COULD lead us to where we now are.  1) And we HAVE TO count this in a world where narratives are so key - could such letters exist that counter the RWB narrative and have been “conveniently” set aside? 2) “Numismatic interest” had NO widely agreed upon definition whatsoever, even inside the government, much less in the hobby.  3) Converse of 1). There IS documentation and the GOVERNMENT “disappeared it”.

Well, the stuff he uncovered tended to strengthen the L10 position, like the Exchange Letter from March 7th that confounded David Tripp.  Roger doesn't control that info, it's available to all.  If anything, the government might have more stuff that we don't know about (like the Export-Import Letter).

I can't envision a smoking gun KO'ing the L10 position; I could imagine a letter opening the door to post-April 1933 legality of Philly Mint insiders being able to get coins for themselves or their Coin Collector Sugar Daddies in NYC or Philly.

As interesting as these debates are to us, the probability is that the day-to-day running of the Treasury and Mint were what consumed 99.99% of their time, and you might only find 1 or 2 letters or comments over a 10 year period on stuff that we obsess about today.

On 3/1/2022 at 2:29 PM, VKurtB said:

Their praexology, their “self-evident truths”, are demonstrably false. “In all things, man can be assumed to act rationally.” ???????? Nope. Disproven. 

Ehhh....like worrying about "perfect information" and other microeconomic rules and assumptions.

On 3/1/2022 at 2:23 PM, VKurtB said:

If you’re an Austrian School admirer, our ability to find common ground may be forever doomed. 

They have some interesting ideas, you have to admit.  Just because they may not work in real life as they do in a textbook doesn't make them uninteresting.

Rather have studied them for a semester than that Marxist course I took. 

On 3/1/2022 at 2:21 PM, VKurtB said:

Actually, I enjoy the raw letters themselves. I can discern what they mean without help. 

I would like more of those on Saints and Morgans, but he probably put most of them into the Saints book, understandably, so I have them there.

Wonder if there are more internal correspondences from the Mint/Treasury and Leland Howard/Mary O'Reilly/etc. on the 1933 Saints and/or any other coins after the recall.  That would be interesting.  They probably had tough calls to make regarding "numismatic interest" in keeping gold coins.

On 3/1/2022 at 2:08 PM, VKurtB said:

 My wife’s infernal wind chimes NEVER stop. 

Energy crisis averted !!!   We just need 1 trillion more of those chimes hooked up to the grid. 

Let's get a moving !!!!!! 

On 3/1/2022 at 1:26 PM, zadok said:

..."most of us"...is a bit of a reach, that would imply a majority??...im not sure those numbers r there...anyway dont include me in ur "most"...in this instance...

I think most readers here think that anything that expands the knowledge base is worthwhile, right Zad ?

I'm not into alot of the obscure letters and notes that Roger uncovers, but I know they are of interst to some here.  So I think it's good he found them and posts them even if don't find them compelling or interesting.  Supported by 1 person or every person, it's valuable information.

Obviously, stuff he posts on coins I collect -- Saints, Morgans, commemoratives -- is much more of interest to me.  

On 3/1/2022 at 1:23 PM, VKurtB said:

This MIGHT BE a key cause for our departure. My formal education in economics at Franklin & Marshall could fairly be called a 12 professor wide, 4 years long, daily condemnation of all gold standards in history. We never did econometrics. We never treated Austrian school as anything but clowns. We did hard core political macroeconomics. The department head literally walked around campus in the old 1970’s Chinese blue peasant wear with the stupid hat. He wasn’t Asian, he was from a Boston old money family. The Intro to Macroeconomics prof eventually became the Prime Minister of Turkey.  The Money and Banking prof became the PA Secretary of Banking under Governor Casey. 

(1)  Economics major from Hamilton College, graduated with honors. 

(2)  I like the Austrian School. 

(3)  I LOVE Milton Friedman.  

(4)  I covered the Gold Standard but read alot more about it because Alan Greenspan (Fed Chair) was a backer of the gold standard up to the early-1970's.  The WSJ also had dozens of Op-Eds on it during the Reagan Years. 

On 3/1/2022 at 1:19 PM, VKurtB said:

Your own private rooting interest was of course irrelevant, right? “Muh, more gold coin good, muh.”

Read my comments, Kurt.  I didn't say the talk was lousy just because it was a POV different than mine.  I said it was interesting -- he made some good points, had some interesting slides -- but I didn't find it compelling.   It was very plain-vanilla and had no Smoking Gun.

If he had proved his point even against the position I took, I'd say it and admit it.  I wish I was there to have asked him some (hard) questions. 

On 3/1/2022 at 12:39 PM, VKurtB said:

The talk with Counsel for the Mint was after the Langbord case was finished, even after the SCOTUS refusal to take up the case, and BETWEEN the time that the “11th 1933” was voluntarily surrendered, but before the numismatic press knew about it. Our table at Pittsburgh knew, but few others did. I pressed about the identity of the previous holder of the 11th, but the most I could get was “an instantly recognizable name in the numismatic field”. Perhaps QDB? Strictly speculation on my part, but it would fit with Bowers’ previous advocacy, wouldn’t it? I hope whoever it was got a tax deduction for voluntarily surrendering it once the case was final. 

I saw the guy's presentation and slide show.  Interesting but quite frankly, not that impressive.  My opinion, of course.

Getting Back To Wells Fargo Hoard.....not only should this thread go back to the topic it was created for, but it's actually a nice segue from the back-and-forth you guys have had.  Because Ron Gillio, the guy behind the Wells Fargo NM Hoard, has NOT told all of the details regarding the Hoard.  Let's hope he does because it gets to the heart of the worth of "original research" that you 2 guys are debating. 

Similarly, the details on the largest hoard ever found -- the 1983 El Salvador MTB Hoard -- got destroyed in flooding about a decade ago.  Gerald Bauman, the chief numismatist, is deceased as is David Akers.  This mega-hoard that may have included 150,000 total gold coins (including tens of thousands of Saints) is the source for the bulk of many otherwise-rare Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles.

Those of you older than me....with good memories....was there any notices of the 1983 MTB Hoard in the mainstream press like The New York Times ?  How about the coin periodicals....did it get lots of articles/space in them?  I wonder if NARA might be able to find them.

On 3/1/2022 at 12:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Roger, your “contribution” (as if…) is nothing more then glorified REGURGITATION of known material. And it is worth exactly that … vomit. 

That's harsh and uncalled for, Kurt. 

You're free to not value it as highly as some of us.  But I think most of us believe there's definite worth in assembling this research and hidden gems and putting it into easily-accessible notes, books, articles, etc.

Taken to your logical extreme, all the information on everything is already out there....so nobody should write about anything since they're just "regurgitating" what is already out there.

Quality original research is always good.  Might not be your cup of tea, I admit.  I'm not into some of Roger's topics or books (like Peace Dollars) but I wouldn't say it is junk just because I don't like it.  Someone might say the same thing about his Saints book that I love.

On 3/1/2022 at 12:01 PM, VKurtB said:

I do not recall WHY I always knew EXTREMELY few Saints ever circulated, but I did. It has been a core of my basic knowledge for literally many decades. It is only a SLIGHT exaggeration historically, that with exception of the Carolina, Georgia, and California gold rushes, gold coins almost NEVER circulated. This makes sense when you stop to think that in the early 19th century, even Bust halves seldom circulated. These high denomination coins were reserves held in major banks. 

Sadly, I didn't do much reading on coins when I was collecting coins in the 1970's.  And my studies in the 1980's really didn't cover it.

We barely touched on the Gold Standard.  Had we gone more in-depth, I think we would have touched upon the specific coins utilized in settling trade and/or the coins being struck more for backing GCs than trade.

Mary O'Reilly lived to 84...she got an exemption for the mandatory retirement age of 70 direct from FDR.

They hired Leland Howard to help assist her....eventually FDR stopped with the exemptions....then Howard took over.  He's the guy who initiated the 1933 Saint crackdowns.

On 2/28/2022 at 7:20 PM, MarkFeld said:

Quit presuming and look it up. And I don’t know that the relative populations necessarily answer your initial question.

I was hoping for a Buffalo expert to chime in. 

I see (?) 2 in 69....2 in 68+.....15 in 68.

On 2/28/2022 at 7:22 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

On a serious note:  I think the gold market will continue to have some upward mobility, especially as equities continue to gyrate with uncertainly in Ukraine.  

If Joe continues to look like Jimmy, our gold is going to skyrocket. 

I think the gold market is afraid Russia will dump gold for hard currencies but nobody will trade with them so it's a moot point.