GoldFinger1969

17 minutes ago, RWB said:

The so-called "high quality" was really just normal production for the US Mints. MS-65 or better would have been typical for coins kept in their original bags and not shipped around a lot.

Yup, I picked that up from your book.  I guess alot more movement and counting in Europe than South of The Border !

52 minutes ago, jtryka said:

I started collecting Saints a couple years after the hoard came out, it was a lot of marketing and non-disclosure of key facts (like Wells Fargo lent their name to the hoard, but it was a private hoard stored in safe deposit boxes at Wells Fargo, but add that name and it would be easy to imagine they were discovered in the back of some vault or on a stage coach somewhere in the old west.  The reality was that I don't think these were much different than many of the European bank hoards, but they were of extremely high quality with a large number graded higher than MS-65, but ultimately all common date.

Welcome JTRYKA.....

(1)  My understanding is that the hoard was NOT found at a Wells Fargo bank, but once they were found they were STORED at a Wells Fargo bank.   Am I correct ?

(2)  You're right, they weren't much different than many European hoards (I'm gonna guess they came from South or Central America, given the high quality which indicates lack of movement).  But they really were a ton of Gem and Superb Gem Quality coins.  Probably the highest overall quality hoard ever found -- and 20,000 coins is pretty big, too !

They probably needed the marketing tricks because gold was in the doldrums....it was stuck at less than half the 1980 peak for most of the 1990's.....plus, numismatics had burst after the 1989-90 Coin Bubble...with all that in your wake, you need something to sell coins that are basically bullion plus a premium, let alone the MS67's and 68's which are going to sell for multiples of the bullion price (I'm going to guess that the MS68's sold for $5,000 or so).

Thanks Roger....TTYL....on to Page 143..... 

What's NCLT ?

Didn't want to keep posting on the Silver Dollar book thread so I created this new thread so that I and others can discuss this great book and Roger can chime in from time-to-time.  I can't say enough about the book -- fantastic.  Best book on coins I've ever read.

Questions for Roger:  On Page 132, you have a quote stating regret that no 1908-D's were "set aside" for the Treasury Secretary (and maybe other Mint/Treasury higher-ups).  I presume getting a few was one of the perks of working for the Mint/Treasury. 

(1)  Did they have to pay for the coin(s) ?  If so, could they use paper currency or did they have to use gold coins ?

(2)  Could the higher-ups get these coins as soon as they came off the press, or did they have to wait for an Official Release date, an Assayer to finish testing, the coins to go to the Cashier or Customer Service Window, etc. ?

(3)  I take it these coins given to the Treasury Secretary or the Mint higher-ups would NOT have been registered on those Daily Cashier statements ?

Interesting Matt, thanks for posting......I'm curious....when NGC receives a bulk submission, how much time per coin do the graders spend on each coin ? 

We've debated this on many threads.  I am reasonably certain that for new coins it's much less than for classic coins but that's all I know.

Gotta be more Saint collectors out here in the forums....come on, post !   

12 hours ago, RWB said:

Look in Chapter 6. Very few people would talk about the hoard, so there is limited first/second hand information.

I will.....but that's Page 588 so I will probably be getting there in about 2 weeks or so.  Unless I decide to cheat and skip ahead....

And you're right....could have used an Index or Chapter thingy....had to skim pages before I could find the different Chapters.   But a minor quibble.

1 hour ago, RWB said:

It's in the book.

Well, you really didn't give specifics on pages 102-104 which is where I presume you were referencing....if you mention it later in the book, I'm not there yet .....the book mentions they sold the 65's in 1997 and then over the next 2 years they got rid of the higher-rated stuff.    Which is actually how it should have been done, rather than dump them all at once.  Let them out over time....save the best for last.  Gold price fell a bit, but the higher-rated stuff wouldn't trade off bullion, anyway.

The price guide in the book for 1997-99 is pretty flat for 1908 NM MS65's.  So I can't see any drop if one occurred.

Too bad Coin World or CoinWeek don't publish retrospectives about major events like that.  Would be interesting to see what they said 23 years ago.  

Roger, can't say enough about the Saint-Gaudens book.  I'm reading it 2-3 times a day, knocking off about 20-30 pages per day.  Best and most enjoyable coin book I have ever read.

52 minutes ago, RWB said:

The real hoard was much larger than the promotions implied. Collectors ate a lot of bologna & cheese sandwiches at the time.

Their were 19,900 coins....are you saying that information wasn't divulged at the time ?   Hard to believe they could keep that secret, even in 1997.

Or are you saying they just kept dribbling out coins and not focusing on the huge increase in supply ?

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

Did they sell because of heavy promotion, or were they just popular with buyers because of the name?

Probably both, based on what I have read (I wasn't into Saints at the time) and similar hype with the SS Central America and other hoards/finds.  One of the vets here -- maybe Roger -- can chime in, because I don't recall how much hype there was at the time.

The 1908 NM's weren't rare before the find, as was the case with the 1857-S Liberty's and the SS Central America.  It was also pre-internet when they were found and when the last batch got sold in 1999 the internet was still in its infancy.

Even the name is deceiving because they were NOT FOUND in a Wells Fargo bank...they were kept in a WF bank for safe-keeping once Gillio bought the coins.

I just read this part about the 3 types of 1908 NM's in Roger's book (Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles)......very interesting and gives me something to look for when/if I get a 1908 No Motto.

I also found it interesting to read about the Gillio/Wells Fargo Hoard.  Looks like the MS65's came out at about 4x the price of gold back in 1997, or double the level for existing 1908 NM MS65's at the time.  Paying that inflated price meant lagging gains even as gold is up 5-fold since.

This is what I love to purchase -- when I have the $$$.

Just picked up an MS66 1923-D at FUN in January.  Next purchase will hopefully be a 1907 High Relief.  

Need to see the reverse....if you're taking the pics with a smartphone, try and take a few shots of each side angling the light so we can see the reflections/luster.

Coin looks legit on this side....where'd you get it ?  How much did you pay for it ? 

No idea on the non-visual, the vets will say more on this.  But I will say that all of the slabs today are good for looking at all sides of the coin.  I think NGC has some good-looking modern slabs and the labels that they use with Eagles and other animals or portraits are kind of nice.

Of course, that means people start paying up for slabs AND labels, not the coin.  But that's a story for another thread....

Excellent points, Conder. 

45 minutes ago, RWB said:

There are several excellent professional companies that offer independent editing, design, proofreading, etc. The good ones have fixed rates based on word count or pages depending on the book  or article. Technical editors charge more. There are also a bunch that are sloppy and useless.

I would think spell-check would catch most of those errors today unless it's a word that is spelled correctly but doesn't belong (i.e., good instead of gold).

I didn't realize that hiring a spell-checker could add so much to the cost of a book (unless it was only going to sell a very small number of books).

On 10/3/2019 at 8:41 PM, RWB said:

I'm very concerned about the typos. The text was reviewed by multiple people, but it is still my responsibility to publish a clean text. In that respect it is clear that I failed to meet expectations. (I did not use my regular copy editor. Her rates have gotten so high that I could not justify the $5 per book price increase necessary. Evidently, I was incorrect.)

 

I'm just curious, how does this work ?  Doesn't the publisher hire a proof reader to make sure typos and stuff like that have been done ?  Are there people you can hire JUST to proof read ?  Do they charge a fixed rate, by the hour, or by book sold ? 

53 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Posting specific information that will help counterfeiters to improve their product is not something we normally do on an open forum, but, as a general rule, you should check weight, and look for tool marks, raised areas, and depressions that do not look like scratches or contact marks.

I get where  you are coming from, but I don't think counterfeiters are scanning forums like this to try and fool the more informed buyers...they're looking to catch the folks who watch infomercials and pay 30% over FMV.  They're looking to fool the easily fooled, not the hardcore collectors.

That said, there are some pretty well-known "tells" that help differentiate real vs. fake.  Tough to recreate them unless you're using pretty expensive and big equipment.

You have to be VERY CARFUL when dealing with raw gold, especially Saints.  If you're not well-versed in grading Saints or looking for fakes, make sure the dealer is someone you know and/or trust.

Post some pics and we can probably help you.  We'll let you know what we see and why.

57 minutes ago, numisport said:

Roger your gold book does not appear to be available at Collectons or Wizard. Where can I purchase it ? Is the Tripp book factual in your opinion ?

The Mint and U.S. Attorneys slimed Roger in part because he didn't do numismatics 24/7 as his "primary" job at the time but more as a backup job/hobby despite his voluminous research (books, journals, articles, etc.)....meanwhile, Tripp has written 1 book to my knowledge and does not publish articles or research (unless you count Sotheby's catalogs as published material).

37 minutes ago, numisport said:

Yep I see it at Heritage. Thanks !

It's spectacular.  Only thing is it should be in hard cover for the $$$ it costs....and it's a thick book which means being in hardcover would make it easier to hold.  But those are my only quibbles.

Roger's work/data on the Saint-Gaudens DE is spectacular.

I'm up to Page 45.... 

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Operations and detailed tracking/accounting were never the strong point of US Mints. The USSS identified multiple failure points during their investigation of the missing bag of 1928s. These defects were corrected beginning with Drissel's term as Superintendent, but by then gold was long-gone from mint production.

Dressel....

I may be way off, but I honestly think the USSS and Mint officials losing $5,000 in 1928 DE's is why they got such a fixation on the 1933 DE's.  If it's true that the dust on the missing bag space matched the 1933 DE's (from your HA write-up), it just adds more intrigue.

If I only had a DeLorean that could get up to 88 MPH.....

Roger, if you have all this knowledge from PAPERS from 85-120 years ago.....it's mind-boggling that the Mint can't reconstruct who swiped that bag of 1928's DEs.  

It's not like it was the coffee room, it was the gold vault -- how many people had access, huh ?

Anyway, great job.  I enjoy reading these tidbits.  Helps shed light on bigger things like that theft.