GoldFinger1969

Roger, if you have all this knowledge from PAPERS from 85-120 years ago.....it's mind-boggling that the Mint can't reconstruct who swiped that bag of 1928's DEs.  

It's not like it was the coffee room, it was the gold vault -- how many people had access, huh ?

Anyway, great job.  I enjoy reading these tidbits.  Helps shed light on bigger things like that theft.

Interesting.....makes you understand how they could lose 250 1928 DE's and also claim  that a few 1933 DEs were "stolen" by Switt and Silver doing an early incarnation of Tom Cruise breaking into CIA headquarters in "Mission: Impossible."  

While you mentioned it.....what is a sub-Treasury ?  I see that phrase coming up alot in your book especially as I skimmed the 1920's and 1930's coins.

4 minutes ago, Matt G said:

Hello @GoldFinger1969,

Thank you for the kind words and suggestions. We are always looking to improve our website and user experience. We try to update the pricing for key coins as the market changes but as you know there are too many coins to update. We have a few tools in the pipeline that we hope will assist our price guide team in monitoring and updating pricing as it is a very labor-intensive task. 

I'm not a computer guy at all, but I would think maybe your IT or PC people can create a program or an algorithm that automatically downloads or links to completed sales over at HA, Stacks, even Ebay and maybe averages them.  Or averages the most recent 3 or 5 sales and maybe throws out the high or low outliers.

If you get within 5% of the most recent sales, that should be close enough.  JMHO.

Also while we're talking about gold (or other PM-related coins or non-PM coins).....having an easy link to past articles like your Counterfeit Detection and threads and articles here would be useful.  You could do that with other most popular coins like MSDs, SLQs, Franklins, Barbers, Lincolns, etc.  This relates to the difficulty of using the Search function and I'm still not sure if old threads pre-site re-do are accessible.  If they are, then having them brought up with a single click would be useful.  If they aren't part of the site anymore, then the same thing applies since you did the site redesign albeit with fewer threads and articles available.

Very interesting thread, thanks for creating it.

And yes, RWB's book which I just got goes into these kinds of details.  Will report back in about a month when I have finished the book. 

Very interesting....but you definitely need to know to look for it, without the article and the reference years I doubt I wold have noticed the "triangle."

7 hours ago, RWB said:

Glad you find the book interesting, and were not injured in getting it out of the box ! (I actually sprained my back lifting a case of them - thought it would be light....) 

It's funny you mention that...about a year ago a guy in my club calls me.... his car is in the shop and he needs a ride to the Post Office and even then he can't lift some books he illustrated with a famous actress.  He's mailing them to Seattle for a book signing.  He says he's mailing about 50 and I'm like "how heavy can they be ?  5 or 6 trips from the car, 10 books a pop.....jeez."

Well, they're all hard cover with thick glossy photo paper and the book is cofee table-sized.  Nearly had a heart attack lifting them back-and-forth from the car to the Post Office counter !

I told him next time go paperback and smaller in size !  

At least I got an autographed copy for my mother. 

1 hour ago, RWB said:

PS: You are authorized to skip to any date/mint coin you wish...

You want to get me thrown out of the "Summer of George" club ? 

Wow....I guess the people who took those jobs either had some $$$ in the bank or made alot of $$$ as Mint personnel to offset the risk of theft.

Plus I guess the bond helped.  Not sure who put it up, but I personally find it more than a coinicdence that the Philly Mint led the drive to get Congress to pass the Reimbursement & Liability Bill for Mint employees and at the same time they decide to go after the 1933 DEs.

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Well, Dimmick was convicted of stealing 6 bags full and no one ever found out what happened to those, either. Admittedly, Dimmick was in a good position to dispose of the new coins -- they were common items along the US West coast and Canadian Pacific.

Would the Super or Mint Director be liable if someone under him was found guilty of the actual theft ?  

The letter says Dimmick was in San Quentin (wonder if he knew The Hammer of C-Block; old "Rockford Files" joke ) so I'm surprised he didn't let on where the DEs were in exchange for a reduced sentence.

32 minutes ago, RWB said:

Glad you find the book interesting, and were no injured in getting it out of the box ! It's 550 pages and heavy - not a laptop book. Heritage assigned all the variety numbers and did all the pricing. They use multiple public and private sources with an emphasis on auctions.

Beyond there not being a hard cover edition, the other omission was a table of contents. The book is chronological, but some major sections are longer than others. Be sure to read the essays that precede date and mint descriptions. These will give you a new perspective on the coins and the world in whch they were a part.

I'm reading every damn word of this book, Roger, including the Copyright, Paper Made in....., and ISSN number crappola. 

I'm tempted to skip ahead to the 1907 HR, 1933 controversy, and the years/mints of Saint-Gaudens DE's that I personally own, but I'm gonna stay dilligent and start from Page 1 (like I promised myself) and not finish until I hit Page 648.  I'm putting down my concurrent readings of some paper money and Akers/Bowers books to hit my new bible. 

Like George Costanza in "The Summer Of George", I'm gonna read this book from beginning to end...in that order !! 

Markets are closed tomorrow, I think if I knock off 20-30 pages a day I can finish by early-to-mid May.  That's my target.  Will let ya know !!

Again, congrats on this masterpiece (BTW, how come no Amazon order option ?).

BTW, your writeup for the Heritage Auction on the 1928 Double Eagle bag was outstanding.

I don't know why this isn't discussed more.  Something is wrong when $1 MM (current value) in 1928 DEs is really stolen and yet all the air is sucked out of the room on an exchange of 1933's.

Thanks Matt, we appreciate the information and especially when it is free. 

One important suggestion:  prices for the U.S. Coin Guide need to be updated more frequently and more accurately.  For instance, the prices for a 1907 High Relief look high across the board -- AU58's are listed for $15,000+ and the market value is closer to $10,000 ($11K tops), which is about 30% less.

It's not on that list, but if you have an interest in Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles, Roger's book available from HA is spectacular:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/books/other-collectibles/the-coinage-of-augustus-saint-gaudens-as-illustrated-by-the-phillip-h-morse-collection-by-james-l-halperin-m/i/960001281.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515 

Tons of detail, probably going to take even me weeks to finish, maybe a month or more. 

Roger, I got your book from Heritage today on Saint-Gaudens DE's....WOW !!!   Spectacular !!

Totally unexepcted was the price guide for each coin/mint going back to 1976....now THAT is really useful and something you can't find anywhere else !  I take it you used Heritage and Red Book archives ?

Only disappointment is that the book is NOT hard cover.  I may have to buy a 2nd one if it ever appears to be going out of print since this one is sure to be beat up from all the reading I will be giving it. 

And they never found out what happened or found the coins ?  Wow.....$5,000 goes missing, not a peep.  A couple of 1933's get exchanged, and all hell breaks loose for 80 years.  

Roger, the Philly Mint was never able to find out who swiped $5,000 worth of 1928 DE's ?  Did the SS or FBI suspect George McGann ?

5 hours ago, World Colonial said:

My reply wasn't in the context you indicate.  What I meant is that with thousands of series and hundreds of thousands of coins (country, series, date, denomination), no one can possibly know what exactly is worth more or less, except in low proportion. The evidence demonstrates that the  US classic series you listed have lost "share of wallet" predominantly to the ASE and world NCLT first and somewhat to world coinage and ancients second, not US moderns.  This coinage either didn't exist previously (NCLT) or wasn't readily available (world and ancients).  No one can know what more than a very low fraction of world "moderns" are generally worth either, given that at least tens of thousands qualify under practically any definition.  This is both now and over any time period, since limited price history is available and catalog list bears no relation to reality.

What would be very interesting would be to focus on modern coins graded by the TPG's today vs. 30 years ago.  I see everyone chasing PF70s and DCAMs and other label designations.  That seems to be where the growth is on Ebay and at coins shows, even if the "oldtimers" like Heritage and Stacks do very little with that stuff.

Certainly, these bulk submission orders I always read about with the TPGs are not for Wheat Pennies !

11 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

  And oddly enough US and world moderns have become the only coins still increasing in value other than "trophy coins"  // Only?  How can you possibly know that? - from CLADKING and WORLD COLONIAL

I think the time frame is key there.  The U.S. Coin Market -- as measured by the PCGS 3000 index but also prices for big categories of the Top 10 most popular coin types -- are very erratic price-wise.  You have a few bubbles punctuated by massive drops, retracements, and very few years of slowly rising prices.

This is just my opinion....based on demographics.....and that as you had the 1st wave of post-WWII collectors start to pass on (die) in the last 10-15 years or so....their common coin collections (SLQs, Barbers, Franklins, Wheats, etc.) found much fewer buyers than would be the case 30-50 years ago.  Maybe the TOTAL number of coin collectors is up or flat from 50 or 65 years ago, I dunno.  But many of today's collectors are into moderns or bullion or quasi-bullion, etc.

So....you get tons of medium-quality or even high-quality (but not ULTRA-HIGH quality) coins hitting the market....nobody really wants them even at a "good" price based on The Red Book...and hence you have a "stealth bear market" where the price a few years ago (or maybe as of today) suddenly falls 30-50% from 5-10 years ago.

That's why aside from the occasional take-a-flyer on a high-graded low-denomination coin post-1900 (or post-1945), I pretty much stick to bullion or bullion numismatics, like MSDs, Saints, and Libertys.

2 hours ago, RWB said:

The fin-rim pieces (incorrectly called "wire rim") are nearly all damaged in some way by flaking of the thin gold fin. Inspectors at the Philadelphia Mint were reluctant to remove these defects because that might reduce the coin's weight to under legal limits. It was not until mid-December that the Director, Superintendent and Engraver were able to find a blank size and upset angle that resulted in nearly fin-less coins.

Interesting....hope that is covered in your book. 

Would loss of the entire fin/wire rim reduce the gold weight to below the lower tolerance level (I believe it was 1/1,000th of an ounce) ?

2 hours ago, RWB said:

"Production dates" and "delivery date" are not the same. I was not allowed to explain that or any other necessary details.

What a surprise.  SOBs.....

On 4/26/2015 at 10:05 AM, BillJones said:

The $20,000 price tag would by a piece that is "almost nice." Generally an MS-63 graded example will sell for somewhere in the $25,000 range. An MS-64 will be in the $30,000 range, and an MS-65 sells in the $45,000 range. All of these prices are for coins that have been certified by NGC or PCGS. The genuine examples of this coin can dip below $10,000 if the coin has wear or damage....$20,000 would by you an MS-62 graded coin. Such pieces can be attractive, but many of the examples I have seen have issues, like a light over all rub, slightly impaired luster or minor marks that an experienced collector will notice right away.

An MS-63 Wire CAC (in one of those solid white NGC holders that isn't optimal) just sold for $17,325 including bp.

Just to be clear, RWB.....from the September 2010 CoinWorld article that you wrote and was referenced again by CW:

(1)  Bartholomew's letter was admitted as evidence and the long-standing March 15th start date for the 1933 DE's was really March 2nd ?  If the letter wasn't admitted then I would guess the trial used March 15th as their start date.

(2)  Similarly, what happened with the $3,180 in DE's paid out that apparently were NOT on the cashier's statement but that you found evidence for their disbursement ?  The Judge kind of pooh-poohed it:  "These gold coins released to the public included Double Eagles, but not 1933 Double Eagles. On March 9th, the cashier paid out $3,000 in circulated Double Eagles. This took place prior to the first delivery of ' 33 Double Eagles to the cashier on March 15th. On March 16th, the cashier paid out $140 in circulated Double Eagles. However, at that point in time, the '33 Double Eagle special assay coins had just been sent out for testing. Finally, on March 17th, $40 in prior year Double Eagles were sent to the Smithsonian." 

KBB, I think most of us here realize that coins/bill are NOT an investment and that we buy them based on our love for the hobby and our personal enjoyment.  That said, if you KNOW that a sector you want to invest in has price weakness ahead for a big chunk of today's purchase price and/or it will last a while (maybe years), you have to plan accordingly.  Maybe you buy the cheaper coins now and get the more expensive ones on sale later on.  Whatever....

I think for most of us we pretty much buy what we want if it is "discretionary" income because waiting 2 years or 10 years to get a prized coin isn't what most of us want.  Plus, we can't know for certainty.

I'm hoping to buy a 1907 High Relief (AU58) in the next year or so....price has weakened in recent years, maybe 20% or so.  It's possible that AU58 might be even cheaper in 2023 or so, but who knows ?  It could cost more, too.

21 hours ago, RWB said:

When the unnecessary "grading" and postage and assorted valueless fees are subtracted, one gets closer to a meaningful collector value. Unfortunately, modern collectors have become completely dependent and will die from the "collectors' cancer" before they give it up.

I guess this sort of makes sense for lower-priced coins, but it is good from a handling and protection POV to have a nice slab protecing your $10 penny or $15 dime.

I'm going to buy a cheapo Saint and MSD to handle and feel with my fingers...but my main atrractions I want protected.

20 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I substantially share this sentiment.

Earlier here and on another coin forum, I expressed the opinion that most post-1933 US coinage will sell for less than the grading fee but what I left out here is that I expect it to apply in grades up to MS-66.

This coinage is very to extremely common in this quality measured by TPG grade.  Most of it (at least 95% even prior to SQ) is almost certainly an R-1 (1250+) with the many later silver dates (such as 1955-1964 quarters) possibly having at least 10,000.  This last group was hoarded in mass by the roll and a noticeable supply never even circulated.

Currently, most of this coinage sells for more than the grading fee in MS-66 but that is only because it isn't worth the bother of getting graded.  If most of the current supply was in a TPG MS-66 holder today, practically all R-1 (and R-2) would be selling for less right now even before prices decline any further.

This is also somewhat true for many 1933 and earlier dates in (somewhat) lower grades.

I guess that was the attraction in the first place...you could collect post-1933 or post-1945 coins and get 90-95% of a complete set for minimal money.  Most 12-year old kids with a paper route couldn't afford Double Eagles made out of gold !