GoldFinger1969

On 5/25/2022 at 6:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

P.P.S.  Gentlemen, the formal reason given for my dismissal was "contentiousness." A review was conducted and a spokesman speaking on behalf of a consortium of [acronyms] granted me a reprieve which can be countermanded, per Guideline rules, for any reason or no reason at all.  I believe a handful of members enjoy unconditional immunity. I do not. 🐓 

I would just say to the Moderators...that as someone who has read most/all of Quntus' posts in this section (particularly on Saints, Roosters, and the Coin Hobby).....I believe his "contentiousness" is merely his ideosynchartic way of speaking, much as some people speak in rhymes or riddles (like The Riddler  ) or Iamic Pentameter or whatever it was that I was taught 45 years ago (and thankfully forgot).

Anyway, kudos to the Mods for enlarging our enlightened circle.  Now let's find those lost 150,000 Double Eagles and split the loot !  The Riddler would be proud (but maybe not Joker, Catwoman, and Penguin !)

On 5/25/2022 at 5:34 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Yes!  However, no one seems in a hurry to get rich.  

They have to verify that the coins are there (probably) and then determine WHERE on the boat they would have been kept.  If those coins spread out over the ocean floor, the increase in salvage costs could make the whole thing a money-loser.

Believe it or not, they can't find a schematic/layout of the ship.

On 5/25/2022 at 5:01 PM, Cat Bath said:

So what's your guess? I'm going to go with 08Motto  $3,000,000 would be 150,000 of them. It

would make it about as common as the 27

The 1908 Motto really takes off at MS-65 but you see it separate from bullion at MS-62/63:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1908-20-motto/9147

But if Roger is correct and they are damaged, you mostly are talking about AU-graded coins, right ?  Even if you do restoration on the coins, I would guess they would expand the MS inventory for the 1908 Motto, but at a discount to the current prices.  Similar to what happened to the 1857-S, where only Big $$$ got you one before the SSCA and then afterwards the price was lower and demand exploded via the publicity of the find.

On 5/25/2022 at 4:59 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[My take on all this... absolutely/positively/unquestionably, one of the most fruitful cross-examinations of a cooperative witness (buyer) ever conducted on this, or any other thread, on the Forum. And a special thank you to GF1969 for the timely heads up to me and his gift for gently eliciting details on a sensitive acquisition in a manner others would routinely eschew.]  

We're fortunate that EC decided to grace our presence here and discuss his registry endeavors.  Hopefully, he can keep us posted and updated without comprimising his ability to get the coins he wants.

Regardless, seems like a very nice guy so hopefully he'll stick around ! 

The problem that EC and other high-end buyers reminds me of what I tell people in the financial markets:  the advantage is with the SMALL guy.

If I want to collect Saints and go after lots of key dates, I am probably buying just very good/excellent coins, not the Trophy Coins in the key dates.  Which means I can bid anonymously....use auction sites.....and wait for my price.  Nobody is going to gouge someone who wants an AU-58 or MS-63 MCMVII HR as opposed to an MS-67 CAC.

Conversely, a super-high end buyer has limited coins he will accept...and if word leaks.....well.....advantage SELLER.  Just like retail/small investors can go to cash in minutes or hours but it takes institutions days or weeks or even months.

Sometimes, small is good.  

On 5/25/2022 at 4:27 PM, Cat Bath said:

Yep...Hansen did the same thing before the Fox sale. I had it memorized though  & PMed him that he should buy the 11-D  He did but I don't know if it was because of me. (here it is)

I guess if you are putting together a top-end Saints collection....and you only want coins that are Top 3 (maybe Top 5)....word can more easily leak.  I'm sure Bob Simpson had this problem (maybe he should have had Jessica bid for him).

Since many of these people are very wealthy, the sellers may figure "He can pay this, I'll just wait him out."

It's a cat-and-mouse game for sure.

On 5/25/2022 at 4:24 PM, Elite Collection said:

Yup, exactly. I will make it public again soon.

Great, let us know here if you get a chance.  I want to see the 1933 in the holder.  

Thanks EC ! 

On 5/25/2022 at 4:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Never thought about that.  Interesting....

Although unless someone is committed to getting every/most dates, and you also knew they wanted the coins in the short-term, is that something you can see happening (being held up price-wise) ?  If it's someone who's young, they might be willing to build the collection over 5 or 10 or 15 years. 

Tough to price-gouge if the buyer has time on their side.

Actually....since EC's name is not known to us....I'm not sure the dealers could gouge him since they don't know his Secret Identity (like Superman/Clark Kent ).

If he wants a top-flight 1932 or MCMVII HR...he can bid on HA or GC and just wait for his price.  It's not like he's going to a dealer saying "Hey, I am trying to put together THE ULTIMATE Saint set and I need top coins to match my 1933 and UHR."

I think EC's anonymity helps him, and the secret bidding at HA/GC also helps since unlike decades ago when you had to tell a few (close) dealers....he doesn't have to tell anybody.  

Good for him & Good Luck, EC !  

On 5/25/2022 at 4:15 PM, Cat Bath said:

Hope you can make yours public again but I understand dealers like to price gouge when they see you might want a particular coin.

Never thought about that.  Interesting....

Although unless someone is committed to getting every/most dates, and you also knew they wanted the coins in the short-term, is that something you can see happening (being held up price-wise) ?  If it's someone who's young, they might be willing to build the collection over 5 or 10 or 15 years. 

Tough to price-gouge if the buyer has time on their side.

On 5/25/2022 at 4:10 PM, Alex in PA. said:

What I guess I like most about NGC is their specialty labels.  

Yup, they have some really nice labels.  I think they add to the coin's distinctiveness.

For instance, on my Saint-Gaudens Commemorative Silvers you have a nice portrait of SG. 

On 5/25/2022 at 3:09 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Let me muddy the waters if I may.  I do not think PCGS or NGC has much of a 'premium' on them if the slab does not have a Green or Gold CAC bean on it.  Just my opinion; that's all.

All else equal.....no CAC sticker on either or a CAC sticker on both.....as condition rarity increases.....the PCGS premium increases.

If you get lots of newcomers into this hobby...and they buy plenty of low-priced coins or moderns....and get used to the NGC holders....I can see them moving up over time to more expensive coins and not paying some of the stated premiums. 

It won't happen overnight, I agree.

On 5/25/2022 at 2:31 PM, Elite Collection said:

It may be true that NGC is better now and PCGS definitely has overgraded coins. But with a lot more overgraded NGC coins out there, the market is paying less for NGC coins. But of course that's not everything. I like my collection to look the same, so I've stuck with PCGS and only buy PCGS coins.

Seems logical.  Enjoy them. 

BTW, I'm not saying that "NGC is better now" -- only that the forces that gave PCGS a HUGE premium (especially for Trophy Coins like those sold by LN) seem to have dissipated a bit.  Maybe because PCGS was the 1st TPG...maybe because NGC got a repuation for looseness 20-25 years ago...maybe it was affection for certain holders....I don't know. 

For whatever reason, the market decided to give nice premiums to PCGS even though you had a duopoly at the top of the TPG rankings.

At least it gives us something to discuss ! 

On 3/19/2022 at 12:50 PM, RWB said:

Yes. Stacks had nothing and claimed to know nothing. MTB said they were the "originator" (or some such term). 

I never responded to this, Roger.....MTB at the time was a pretty big gold dealer in 1983.  They made their bones in the late-1970's and early-1980's.  Lots of publicity in The NYT, WSJ, BARRON'S, etc.  But they mostly dealt in bullion or gold coins that were maybe a small premium to spot gold.

Sotheby's would have given them some "cache" to sell the more valuable, numismatic coins.  MTB's normal clientele maybe couldn't or wouldn't have the $$$ to buy individual coins or a bunch of them requiring more $$$ than the normal small bullion purchases.

As it turned out, Bauman of MTB was able to sell a large number of the coins to David Akers and other premium contacts who probably took the more valuable, higher-graded coins (graded by them, no TPGs for another 3-4 years).

On 5/25/2022 at 1:24 PM, Elite Collection said:

- PCGS graders are generally stricter and leads to higher resale value

I think that was true at one time, but I think the gap has closed.  PCGS has been the subject of multiple criticisms even at the CU/PCGS forums -- with threads disappearing and individuals suspended/banned.  Some of the worst examples of gradeflation have been in recent years involving PCGS and small-denomination coins (not gold or Saints).

I will say this about our NGC hosts:  they tolerate criticism.  They don't go bonkers at the first mention of not liking their grading. 

I think that will benefit them in the long-run.  Granted, I don't have to worry about registry points or re-sale of pricey coins, but I like what I have seen in recent years from NGC on the grading, holder, and label fronts.

On 5/25/2022 at 1:24 PM, Elite Collection said:

- PCGS holders look better in my opinion

I actually like the modern NGC holders that I bought some modern coins in.  Nice holders....the 4-prong holder is nice.....good-looking, informative color labels, too.

I will go to your registery to see what the 1933 looks like in the current holder.  I don't believe I have seen it.

On 5/25/2022 at 1:24 PM, Elite Collection said:

- I use the PCGS set registry and they only accept PCGS graded coins

Understood.  Not a registry player so I never followed these rules but I understand it's a 1-way street with PCGS.

On 5/25/2022 at 1:24 PM, Elite Collection said:

- All my coins are in PCGS holders, so it will be out of place

Really ?  Did you re-submit many of them or did you simply only buy PCGS ?

On 5/24/2022 at 9:20 PM, Elite Collection said:

It's now in a PCGS MS 65 CAC holder. 

Just curious...any thought to putting it into an NGC holder ? 

I mean, for such a unique coin, I don't think you need worry about any premium or discount upon resale (if ever sold). 

Looks like they can't find the gold...nobody has the ship's layout schematics....I'm not sure they can launch a salvage without them...tried 30+ years ago and fruitless....well, at least they found the wine cellar :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bayerle

On 5/25/2022 at 10:07 AM, Alex in PA. said:

In searching the Web I cannot find if any of the loot was yet recovered.

I don't think so....they haven't raised the $$$ or gotten the salvage equipment yet according to the September 2021 article.

I think they also need to make sure that the salvage will be profitable.  They want to be 100% sure that the gold/DEs are there....if not, they could take a bath financially.  SSCA had 15 tons of gold; this ship may have had 45 tons.  But most of it may have to be sold as bullion -- even the DEs -- which changes the calculus.

Also, if for any reason the gold/DEs are spread over a large area, that increases the costs tremendously.  Unlikely, but something you want to verify before spending the big $$$ on the salvage.

On 5/25/2022 at 10:16 AM, RWB said:

But...they do have run-on sentences, and occasional sentence fragments..... 

Imagine if you went to prison.....and were given a life sentence...and the only food they gave you was Life cereal...and the only board game you could play was The Game of Life.

Truly a LIFE sentence ! 

On 5/25/2022 at 7:48 AM, RWB said:

When/If located, they would be promoted much like the Central America gold -- that is, sold to suckers for excessive prices. If 1908-date they would have to compete with the other sucker-lot of 1908 Type 1 pieces sold a few decades ago. (Gold for the Atlantic Fleet would likely be in half eagles, plus silver.)

I don't think you'd have the "suckers" chasing this, Roger.  The SSCA in 2000 was new...it was unique...had a great story...and the internet had just started so that there still was an information void.

You won't find the DEs from this shipwreck being sold at 10x market value because I think most buyers will Google what happened in the past or what comparables today sell for.....the big difference is even if sold for a nominal premium to gold bullion, that price today is 6x higher than what it was in 1999-2001.

So whoever finds/gets the coins should be able to recover costs and make a decent profit just by selling the coins at FMV or spot bullion (~ 1,900/oz.)

On 5/25/2022 at 1:10 AM, Cat Bath said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Republic_(1903)

Just a fun little 'what-if' to keep things interesting on Goldfinger's most excellent thread.

https://www.tampafp.com/owners-of-fabled-shipwreck-rms-republic-release-confidential-treasure-map-pointing-to-a-7-billion-recovery/

[From the article] "As of this writing, we have more than $1.5 million investor funds committed toward 2022 recovery operations."

Fascinating......you learn something new all the time here at NGC and on this thread ....I can't believe I never came across this.

There definitely were DEs on that boat, but it's unclear as to whether they were Liberty's or Saints.  Looks like ownership of the loot could also be in dispute.

On 5/25/2022 at 1:10 AM, Cat Bath said:

The RMS Republic sank on 24 January 1909 & was reported to have $3,000,000 worth of freshly minted double eagles in the hold. (1909 value) It sank off Nantucket & was presumably bound for Russia.

Wow, I never heard of this....it's not even mentioned in QDB's Double Eagles Red Book which I though listed all the major shipwrecks involving DEs.

Great post Cat....can NOT believe I never saw this mentioned when reading about shipwrecks, Russia, or Saint/Liberty DEs.

On 5/24/2022 at 9:20 PM, Elite Collection said:

Both PCGS and NGC went to see the coin at Sotheby's and graded the coin MS 65 outside of the holder, which is very rare. And John Albanese also saw it and said he would sticker it at MS 65 if it was ever holdered. After I won, I sent it into PCGS and then CAC. It's now in a PCGS MS 65 CAC holder.

Congrats !!    JA has a reputation for being a tough grader of gold/Saints. 

I'm a bit confused as to what you are asking....but have you considered checking out Heritage Auctions and/or Great Collections for problem-free coins ?

On 5/24/2022 at 8:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Respectfully, I distinctly recall one of the more notable departures from the standard certification procedure was honoring the buyer's request that the coin be delivered minus encapsulation.

I remember that departure from normal procedure.....but given the special nature of the coin, I'm not surprised.  EC certainly had a say in that, maybe he can give us more details.

Is the coin not in a holder now ?  Personally, I'd be very afraid of the coin being dropped or something if I was in the habit of holding it or showing it around.  And you certainly can't show it/display it as the risk is too high.  But maybe it's in a double-velvet pouch or something in a vault and never moves so no risk of getting dinged.

On 5/24/2022 at 3:08 PM, Elite Collection said:

John Albanese likes it.

The 1933 has a CAC sticker, right ?