Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread 2 2

[Tazcollector]

To note, the 67 Flat Rim wasn’t in the Warren collection (he had the 2 66s)—just mentioning the 67 given it was a big coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:52 PM, Tazcollector said:

They had the HRs (there was a 67 (Flat Rim—went for $336K) and two 66s (Flat and Wire) among them).  In the Heritage system you have to search for that separately from the general St Gaudens search.`

You're right.  I forgot about that.  Helps when searching only MCMVII HR's but a pain when they are sold as part of a collection.

Thanks again, Taz.  Great catch ! 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:52 PM, Tazcollector said:

They had the HRs (there was a 67 (Flat Rim—went for $336K) and two 66s (Flat and Wire) among them).  In the Heritage system you have to search for that separately from the general St Gaudens search.`

Those Flat-Rims caught some nice bids.  The lower-end and "Details" coins haven't moved THAT much the last few months as prices rose in general (I wonder if the fall in gold cooled some jets).

Those prices for the Flat Rims were very high for the grades, off the top of my head.  Even for a 67 and 66's.

[RWB]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:01 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Those Flat-Rims caught some nice bids.  The lower-end and "Details" coins haven't moved THAT much the last few months as prices rose in general (I wonder if the fall in gold cooled some jets).

Those prices for the Flat Rims were very high for the grades, off the top of my head.  Even for a 67 and 66's.

Normal rim HR $20s were closer to what Henry Hering seemed to be aiming for in November, but the Mint was done with any more models from the Saint-Gaudens studio. Had Hering been more aggressive we might have had a better low relief version than the one Barber produced.

The fin rim (defect) pieces were accepted only because the Mint wanted President Roosevelt to have high relief coins. By late December Barber commented that he was afraid the President would order the Mint to keep making HR for 1908.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:19 AM, RWB said:

Normal rim HR $20s were closer to what Henry Hering seemed to be aiming for in November, but the Mint was done with any more models from the Saint-Gaudens studio. Had Hering been more aggressive we might have had a better low relief version than the one Barber produced.  The fin rim (defect) pieces were accepted only because the Mint wanted President Roosevelt to have high relief coins. By late December Barber commented that he was afraid the President would order the Mint to keep making HR for 1908.

Your book and posts here explained how they solved the problem of the fin with some minor adjustments.  Very simple solution and easy for even someone not an expert on strikings like me could understand. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:19 AM, RWB said:

By late December Barber commented that he was afraid the President would order the Mint to keep making HR for 1908.

Did Barber and his staff feel they needed millions of Saint DEs for trade/domestic purposes and there was no way they could strike enough HRs ?  Was that the source of their angst or they just wanted low-relief no matter what ?

I know the HR needed 3 strikes (vs. 7-9 for the UHR) but as long as they had more time free with the medal press I would think a few hundred thousand or a few million (if not the 8 million we saw with the 1928's) HRs could have been struck even though it would have been slower than with low-relief coins.

Didn't the UHRs take 12 minutes each to crank out ?  Now that I could see worrying Barber if he needed the coins in volume.  But the HRs took less strikes and less time.

At least we got 12,375 of them. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Alex in PA.]

A very impressive lot.  I could bid on three 1908s but after that............

[RWB]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:49 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did Barber and his staff feel they needed millions of Saint DEs for trade/domestic purposes and there was no way they could strike enough HRs ?  Was that the source of their angst or they just wanted low-relief no matter what ?

Normal double eagle production was about 90 coins per minute. Low relief ("coin relief") was necessary to bring up the design with one blow. Millions of DE were required to comply with law erlated to gold coin backing for Gold Certificates. Average production of UR DE, after late November when a 2nd pair of dies became available, was a few hundred. It was impossible to economically manufacture HR DE.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:38 AM, RWB said:

 It was impossible to economically manufacture HR DE.

Yeah, I guess those presses were used for other coins, too and they needed them.  Unless you had them/it totally dedicated 100% for HRs only for weeks (months ?) at a time, it just couldn't be done. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 5/11/2022 at 11:00 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, I guess those presses were used for other coins, too and they needed them.  Unless you had them/it totally dedicated 100% for HRs only for weeks (months ?) at a time, it just couldn't be done. 

I recall that production time for HR $20 was about 3 minutes per coin. They would have needed dozens of hydraulic presses to produce as many coins in a day as one lonely toggle press. And don't forget the additional annealing furnaces and other infra structure.

[GoldFinger1969]

Recent GC Sales:  All totals include bp.....

1923-D MS65+.........................$3,375

1923-D MS66 NGC..................$4,700

1899 Liberty DE MS63.............$2,431

1899 Liberty DE MS61.............$2,143 (bullion coin I guess)

1924 MS66...............................$3,635

1924 MS66..............................$3,488

1924 MS66+CAC....................$7,031

1915-S MS65+.......................$6,250

1911 D/D MS65 FS-501 (?).....$4,247

1910-S MS65..........................$9,030

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Tazcollector]

Small point but rightly or wrongly I assume that people are paying GC in cash (I wire all of my payments) such that the BP is 10% rather than 12.5% (they report on a 12.5% basis even if you do pay cash).  I adjust accordingly when comparing to prices from Heritage, Stacks and Legend.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:24 AM, Tazcollector said:

Small point but rightly or wrongly I assume that people are paying GC in cash (I wire all of my payments) such that the BP is 10% rather than 12.5% (they report on a 12.5% basis even if you do pay cash).  I adjust accordingly when comparing to prices from Heritage, Stacks and Legend.

Good point, Taz....so maybe slice off 2.5% for some of those prices (assuming people paid cash, which I am sure many/most did but NOT all).

The trend -- and relative pricing -- is more important IMO than the actual net price paid.

Have not bought fro Stacks but I can say that all the fees and the 20% BP (not negotiable for the most part) from HA can really drive up the final price.  Even when you add the BP, the other fees (taxes, S&H, etc.) can really jacks the price up especially for lower-priced stuff.

Edited May 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

CAC POWER:  The value of the CAC designation -- regardless of whether you like it or hate it -- can't be denied from these prices.  Note how a lower-graded Saint jumps up in price to eclipse a similar or even "half-point" higher Saint:

• A 1927 MS65+ sold for $3,375 (w/bp).
• A 1927 MS65 sold for $2,925.
• A 1927 NGC MS65 CAC sold for $3,724
• A 1925 NGC MS66+ sold for $7,200.
• A 1925 MS66 CAC for for $8,269.
• A 1924 NGC MS67 for $11,812

While some of the coins were in NGC slabs (albeit older ones that might be more conservatively graded), note that the CAC designation seems to drive the price differential, especially when there's a big price jump to the next grade.  The 1927 MS65 NGC CAC sells for a nice premium to the MS65+ (PCGS).

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Tazcollector]

Since you referenced a 1924 i note that a 1924 PCGS 67 CAC sold for $38,400 at the recent Heritage auction (which is consistent with prior auction prices and what I paid for mine in a private sale so the Heritage price wasn’t a fluke sale).    The 24 is a common date coin—on a rare date (where the CAC pop is also very low) the CAC spread can be much more material.  The extremely low CAC pops on many of the Heritage coins that you originally posted a few posts up is one of the drivers of the prices.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by Tazcollector

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/16/2022 at 8:21 PM, Tazcollector said:

Since you referenced a 1924 i note that a 1924 PCGS 67 CAC sold for $38,400 at the recent Heritage auction (which is consistent with prior auction prices and what I paid for mine in a private sale so the Heritage price wasn’t a fluke sale).    The 24 is a common date coin—on a rare date (where the CAC pop is also very low) the CAC spread can be much more material.  The extremely low CAC pops on many of the Heritage coins that you originally posted a few posts up is one of the drivers of the prices.  

That's a helluva boost though from the MS67 price to just under $40K for a CAC sticker.  There aren't that many MS68's I know -- and then you throw in JA's tight grading standard for Saints/gold and I'm not surprised by a 200% premium to a standard MS67.

You're right, Taz, on the premiums.  Whether it's a lower grade on a Saint that is rarer in lower grades (i.e, 1908-S) or just a condition rarity for a common 1924 if you go high enough....the CAC sticker will add a nice premium.  

[Cat Bath]

On 5/16/2022 at 6:59 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

 -- regardless of whether you like it or hate it -- 

At least people are collecting coins rather than beany babies. 

What other people think is a very important thing nowadays and provides confidence when coins are considered investments.

This thread is about money and CAC is very relevant in that regard.  

What I also notice is that non-CAC saints have gone up also. Bad for me but good for the hobby.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/16/2022 at 11:23 PM, Cat Bath said:

At least people are collecting coins rather than beany babies.  What other people think is a very important thing nowadays and provides confidence when coins are considered investments.

And yet....barring those who collected pre-1950...or those who caught the bullion bull market of the 1970's having purchased beforehand....I have noted here that even "Trophy Coins" like the 1933 Saint and 1908-S Norweb Saint return mid-single digits at best over long periods of time.

Maybe there's a niche sector in the small denomination coin sector that I am not familiar with that has generated stock-like returns in recent decades (I doubt it, since the U.S. coin index was in a bear market from 2010-20).  But I think there's one thing virtually ALL of us here agree:  coins should not be considered investments and they haven't generated appropriate risk-adjusted returns over the last 40 years. 

You have to enjoy your coins.  They're not investments (don't pay dividends or income).  They may or may not appreciate even a low amount over time.  At a minimum, if they hold their value, you've got a few $$$ in an emergency stash if you ever need it.

Edited May 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:00 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

....I think there's one thing virtually ALL of us here agree:  coins should not be considered investments and they haven't generated appropriate risk-adjusted returns over the last 40 years. 

You have to enjoy your coins.  They're not investments (don't pay dividends or income)....

FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with your basic premise. Oddly, whatever the reason, the "or coq Marianne" [🐓] appear to be commanding much higher prices lately than I remember paying for them in 2019. Also, there are 7 times as many Set Registrants here at NGC than on the P- circuit. I don't have the luxury of resting on my laurels. I regard the rumored sighting of any grade finer  than mine for any year as a personal challenge that cannot go unanswered. One can make of this whatever one will. Great thread! 👍 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with your basic premise. Oddly, whatever the reason, the "or coq Marianne" [🐓] appear to be commanding much higher prices lately than I remember paying for them in 2019. Also, there are 7 times as many Set Registrants here at NGC than on the P- circuit. I don't have the luxury of resting on my laurels. I regard the rumored sighting of any grade finer  than mine for any year as a personal challenge that cannot go unanswered. One can make of this whatever one will. Great thread! 👍 

People remember the past.  The 1970's saw people make so much $$$ that the newsletter writers and others who talked PMs and coins were able to keep on selling subscriptions for another 20 years despite LOUSY performance.  Gold going up 20-fold....silver going up 30-fold.....gas lines...inflation....it was 10 years of that, and for many, it stuck in their brains (but maybe not Jerome Powell ?  Inside joke.....).

Imagine making the playoffs in your 3rd year as coach and manager and then your team is last or next-to-last every year going forward....and you stay on as coach/mgr. for another 15-20 years.   You get 1 or 2 years of bad play if you have a good year...MAYBE 2-3 years if you win the World Series or Super Bowl....nobody gets another 15-20 years without putting up some winning numbers.

Maybe ancients or some other niche will generate double-digit returns, I dunno.  I think it's best to keep coin collecting a hobby...ignore the financial results of what you put into it..... and look to the financial markets for your investment returns.

Edited May 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Alex in PA.]

On 5/16/2022 at 6:59 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

note that the CAC designation seems to drive the price differential

Here's where I agree with you but..........  It is not the ordinary, run of the mill collector that is causing this premium but the coin dealers and CAC itself.  However, CAC has been going for 12 (?) years now and doesn't look like it's going anywhere soon.  Whether you like CAC or not, if you are a coin collector, you will have to learn to live with it.

What @Cat Bath said makes a lot of sense.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Alex in PA.

[RWB]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

or coq Marianne"

Do you mean "L'or coq au vin a la Marianne"  ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, RWB said:

Do you mean "L'or coq au vin a la Marianne"  ?

Great sense of humor! I just don't want to get into anyone's face with Roosters!    

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:43 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Here's where I agree with you but..........  It is not the ordinary, run of the mill collector that is causing this premium but the coin dealers and CAC itself. 

At the high-end, you have price-insensitive buyers with hundreds of millions or even billions who will pay a 300% premium for a CAC coin at the high-end even if "the market" would normally say the premium should only be 50% or 100% or even 200%.

If you are putting together a world-class collection and are worth 9 or 10 figures, you don't care about a few hundred thousand dollars, let alone tens of thousands of dollars.

I know I wouldn't. 

[zadok]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:00 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

And yet....barring those who collected pre-1950...or those who caught the bullion bull market of the 1970's having purchased beforehand....I have noted here that even "Trophy Coins" like the 1933 Saint and 1908-S Norweb Saint return mid-single digits at best over long periods of time.

Maybe there's a niche sector in the small denomination coin sector that I am not familiar with that has generated stock-like returns in recent decades (I doubt it, since the U.S. coin index was in a bear market from 2010-20).  But I think there's one thing virtually ALL of us here agree:  coins should not be considered investments and they haven't generated appropriate risk-adjusted returns over the last 40 years. 

You have to enjoy your coins.  They're not investments (don't pay dividends or income).  They may or may not appreciate even a low amount over time.  At a minimum, if they hold their value, you've got a few $$$ in an emergency stash if you ever need it.

...."dont pay dividends or income...".....define dividends, differentiate dividends and return on one's money...

[zadok]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:43 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Here's where I agree with you but..........  It is not the ordinary, run of the mill collector that is causing this premium but the coin dealers and CAC itself.  However, CAC has been going for 12 (?) years now and doesn't look like it's going anywhere soon.  Whether you like CAC or not, if you are a coin collector, you will have to learn to live with it.

What @Cat Bath said makes a lot of sense.

...diff to point just one finger....dealers definitely pushing/driving the premium cart, also collectors with excess money greasing the wheels...not sure that CAC, the entity, is premium orientated however agree that CAC, the sticker, is smoothing the road...personally, i dont see having to live with it i see it more as having to deal with it in buying decisions or even using it in buying decisions...just my take on it, one size doesnt fit all though....and sometimes carts run off the road n into a ditch, best to know when to jump off....

[zadok]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with your basic premise. Oddly, whatever the reason, the "or coq Marianne" [🐓] appear to be commanding much higher prices lately than I remember paying for them in 2019. Also, there are 7 times as many Set Registrants here at NGC than on the P- circuit. I don't have the luxury of resting on my laurels. I regard the rumored sighting of any grade finer  than mine for any year as a personal challenge that cannot go unanswered. One can make of this whatever one will. Great thread! 👍 

...simply put there r 7 times as many registry sets here because here has a much better registry, especially so in world coins...

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:04 AM, zadok said:

...."dont pay dividends or income...".....define dividends, differentiate dividends and return on one's money...

Dividends:  steady stream of income, just like on common stocks or even income from bonds.  Coins and PMs don't pay them.

[Alex in PA.]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:13 AM, zadok said:

not sure that CAC, the entity, is premium orientated

In their first years CAC bought up at least 1 million of their stickered coins.  You do know what they call this in the Stock Market when a person puts out his stock then buys it himself in large quantities to up the price.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:13 AM, zadok said:

...diff to point just one finger....dealers definitely pushing/driving the premium cart, also collectors with excess money greasing the wheels...not sure that CAC, the entity, is premium orientated however agree that CAC, the sticker, is smoothing the road...personally, i dont see having to live with it i see it more as having to deal with it in buying decisions or even using it in buying decisions...just my take on it, one size doesnt fit all though....and sometimes carts run off the road n into a ditch, best to know when to jump off....

I just think there are FEWER collectors who are sure of their grading skills....they like seeing CAC (especially for coins that cost $$$) because it confirms the underlying grade and then some.....it's like buying a warranty for a car.