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Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread
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444 posts in this topic

On 5/29/2022 at 10:16 AM, Alex in PA. said:

In their first years CAC bought up at least 1 million of their stickered coins.  You do know what they call this in the Stock Market when a person puts out his stock then buys it himself in large quantities to up the price.

In fairness, it's a bit different because CAC/JA is acting like a market maker and being willing to buy the coins they sticker, much like a specialist on the NYSE or a market maker is the Buyer Of Last Resort to keep the stock price orderly.

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On 5/29/2022 at 9:58 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Dividends:  steady stream of income, just like on common stocks or even income from bonds.  Coins and PMs don't pay them.

...i guess the operative word in ur concept is "steady"....i see my return on money as dividends which r manifested upon sale?...i also see my coin collections as a vital portion of my investment portfolio, comprising bout 40% of it....to date (40+ years) my coins have out performed my stocks over the same period by multiples...my US portion has produced approx 450% return over past 12 years...world portion only doubled...i do believe in trying to be diversified to some extent between stocks/precious metals/coins/real property etc...precious metals have far outpaced everything else by gigantic margin but ive owned for over 50 years a lot of it...absolute value (not %) real property highest returns...actually my stocks r worst performance all dividends reinvested so no real income...but they too have been profitable....

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:16 AM, Alex in PA. said:

In their first years CAC bought up at least 1 million of their stickered coins.  You do know what they call this in the Stock Market when a person puts out his stock then buys it himself in large quantities to up the price.

...yep i do...every business has to establish its foundation, but i still dont currently see CAC as premium driven....

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:17 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I just think there are FEWER collectors who are sure of their grading skills....they like seeing CAC (especially for coins that cost $$$) because it confirms the underlying grade and then some.....it's like buying a warranty for a car. xD

...totally agree, thats entire premise of tpgs in first place, CAC just an add on....most modern day collectors couldnt grade eggs, coins or homework papers...can u get a warranty on carts too?....

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:19 AM, zadok said:

i also see my coin collections as a vital portion of my investment portfolio, comprising bout 40% of it.

As a CFA and CFP, I would NEVER include someone's coin or art or car collections as part of their investment portfolio.  Not even real estate.  Extra assets in case of difficulty, sure.

But not investments suitable for an investment portfolio:  no dividends or income paid....not liquid....highly volatile.

On 5/29/2022 at 10:19 AM, zadok said:

to date (40+ years) my coins have out performed my stocks over the same period by multiples...my US portion has produced approx 450% return over past 12 years...world portion only doubled

You're either very lucky or very smart -- or both.xD  Going back a bit over 40 years gets you into the rise of the 1970's but then you had DECADES of flattish returns.  And U.S. stocks the last 10-12 years were in a bear market until Covid-19 and whether it's a bull market or a bear market rally it's too early to tell.

Did you SHORT coin prices to make those returns ? xD

You are obviously like the daytrader who makes $$$ going in-and-out....one of the 1% who actually makes $$$ doing it.  Most fail.  Ditto coins, especially U.S. coins the last few years/decades.  Check out the PCGS U.S. Coin Index...still probably down 50% from decades ago.

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:19 AM, zadok said:

precious metals have far outpaced everything else by gigantic margin but ive owned for over 50 years a lot of it...absolute value (not %) real property highest returns...actually my stocks r worst performance all dividends reinvested so no real income...but they too have been profitable....

You bought early and you bought SMART because I can't come up with any average scenario where PM's -- even going back to 1970 -- beat stocks with dividend compounding.  Now, a few years earlier than 50 years ago can knock the prices down for PMs or numismatic coins a ton....but MOST of that outperformance HAD to have been in the 1970's which simply hasn't been replicated.

Gold and other PMs have had nice rides but that was AFTER big declines.  In the 1970's, we had a 20-fold rise in silver and gold after they had been flat for decades (price-controlled, for sure).

The PCGS U.S. Coin Index is light-years behind it's all-time highs:

PCGS 3000 1970-2022.gif

Zad, I'm not as old as you.  I didn't get those super-low prices of the early-1970's...I was too busy watching Saturday morning cartoons !!  xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 5/29/2022 at 10:22 AM, zadok said:

but i still dont currently see CAC as premium driven....

Me neither.  CAC is out there and they aims to stay.  At this point in CAC's history I would call them Lucrative.

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:34 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As a CFA and CFP, I would NEVER include someone's coin or art or car collections as part of their investment portfolio.  Not even real estate.  Extra assets in case of difficulty, sure.

But not investments suitable for an investment portfolio:  no dividends or income paid....not liquid....highly volatile.

You're either very lucky or very smart -- or both.xD  Going back a bit over 40 years gets you into the rise of the 1970's but then you had DECADES of flattish returns.  And U.S. stocks the last 10-12 years were in a bear market until Covid-19 and whether it's a bull market or a bear market rally it's too early to tell.

Did you SHORT coin prices to make those returns ? xD

You are obviously like the daytrader who makes $$$ going in-and-out....one of the 1% who actually makes $$$ doing it.  Most fail.  Ditto coins, especially U.S. coins the last few years/decades.  Check out the PCGS U.S. Coin Index...still probably down 50% from decades ago.

...ok ill change my nomenclature from investment portfolio to fiscal portfolio or asset portfolio....re the coin portion, i still have many of the same coins i bought in the early '70s, n yes there was a period of flatness that dollar value was stagnant i saw that as a buying opportunity...i dont consider myself a day-trader in coins, although i have bought the same coins twice even three times...dividends r just add ones to me, although i have owned tobacco stocks for decades, big dividends....i dont personally look at any of my investments or assets as income producing, more of a parking lot for a place to put money when u dont need it....as for income producing i always thought that was what jobs were for...go to work get check pay bills spend the rest...im not big fan of checking other peoples indexes, use my own, others good for seeing trends but im not a trending person, still wear my arnold palmer sweaters, getting thin in the elbows though...coin values go up n down, but rarity doesnt, bar new hoards etc...i only have one coin in my collections that ive lost real money on if i sold it, but i liked it n i wanted it...besides collecting coins (read investing?) is fun managing stocks isnt.....

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:53 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Me neither.  CAC is out there and they aims to stay.  At this point in CAC's history I would call them Lucrative.

What I find curious is that CAC is apparently busier today than ever....I would have thought they got most of the low-hanging fruit the first few years and business would slowly dwindle as most of the coins that could get the CAC sticker already got them.

Guess not.......xD

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On 5/29/2022 at 10:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You bought early and you bought SMART because I can't come up with any average scenario where PM's -- even going back to 1970 -- beat stocks with dividend compounding.  Now, a few years earlier than 50 years ago can knock the prices down for PMs or numismatic coins a ton....but MOST of that outperformance HAD to have been in the 1970's which simply hasn't been replicated.

Gold and other PMs have had nice rides but that was AFTER big declines.  In the 1970's, we had a 20-fold rise in silver and gold after they had been flat for decades (price-controlled, for sure).

The PCGS U.S. Coin Index is light-years behind it's all-time highs:

PCGS 3000 1970-2022.gif

Zad, I'm not as old as you.  I didn't get those super-low prices of the early-1970's...I was too busy watching Saturday morning cartoons !!  xD

...true i got the jump on u....i was buying Ag at -$3 per oz n Au at $35 per oz...still have some DE bought for $40, n mint bag morgans $1000 per...i watched tom terrific, rin tin tin, howdy doody, soupy sales, yancy derringer, texaco theatre, QE II coronation, burns n allen, dorothy kilgallen,jack paar, still watch re-runs of paladin ( have st gaudin will travel)......u prob dont recognize any of those.....

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On 5/29/2022 at 11:15 AM, zadok said:

...true i got the jump on u....i was buying Ag at -$3 per oz n Au at $35 per oz...still have some DE bought for $40, n mint bag morgans $1000 per...i watched tom terrific, rin tin tin, howdy doody, soupy sales, yancy derringer, texaco theatre, QE II coronation, burns n allen, dorothy kilgallen,jack paar, still watch re-runs of paladin ( have st gaudin will travel)......u prob dont recognize any of those.....

Aside from Tom Terrific -- #41, The Franchise (thumbsu -- most of those I never saw but have read about.  A few (Soupy Sales) I vaguely remember from "Wonderama" or the early-1970's.

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On 5/29/2022 at 11:18 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Aside from Tom Terrific -- #41, The Franchise (thumbsu -- most of those I never saw but have read about.  A few (Soupy Sales) I vaguely remember from "Wonderama" or the early-1970's.

...i remember sending off n getting a special plastic overlay u put on ur tv screen n special wax crayons u used to mark clues with during the show n at the end u got a secret message...still have my secret capt midnight decoder ring here someplace, i use it to pick stocks...not...n if u want a real investment how bout a square inch of land in the klondike from cereal boxes, i tried to get nuf to make an acre but got sick eating so much cereal....lamont cranston knows.....

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Back To Prices:  A few auctions end tonight on GC....a pair of MCMVII HRs Flat Edges seeing active bidding but a Wire Edge MS-65 seeing no bids @ $45,000.  Some other interesting Saints for sale....I'll report back. 

And I can't believe this....it's a Silver Commemorative tied to Saint-Gaudens.....7 days left and already over $200...wow.

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1165870/National-Park-Foundation-Saint-Gaudens-Commemorative-Double-Eagle-Indian-Ultra-High-Relief-Silver-1-oz-Private-Issue-Struck-2017-NGC-Proof-70-UC-Mercanti-Signed-Label

I got one for about $100 only a year or so ago. 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 5/29/2022 at 10:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

..I would have thought they got most of the low-hanging fruit the first few years

One would think that but.....I believe it took a short while for the 'Wait and See ers' to become true believers.

And once again we have strayed from the OP.   Wells Fargo Hoard.

1908 No Motto NGC 65 Wells Fargo OBV.jpg

1908 No Motto  REV.jpg

Edited by Alex in PA.
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On 5/29/2022 at 7:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What I find curious is that CAC is apparently busier today than ever....I would have thought they got most of the low-hanging fruit the first few years and business would slowly dwindle as most of the coins that could get the CAC sticker already got them.

Guess not.......xD

As the number of collector submitters has grown as well as the flipper dealers, there are more submitters using the "throw it all at the wall and see what sticks" strategy now than in the past.   It used to be that only the best coins got submitted, partly because dealers have to pay for the coins that do not pass where the collector submitter does not.   And also partly due to the TPG's adding CAC sets to the registries, so it is easy to just send it all rather than weed out the chaff.   I have no idea how long this can last before even the collectors run out of kitchen sink material to send, probably awhile.

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On 5/29/2022 at 1:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What grade did that coin get,

NGC MS-65.  Not much over average but, if CAC were accepting, I would have taken a chance.  Maybe JA would have given me a break.  9_9

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On 5/29/2022 at 9:34 AM, zadok said:

...simply put there r 7 times as many registry sets here because here has a much better registry, especially so in world coins...

I am but a child and wouldn't know about all that. But in my shamefully unabashed, biased view, gold looks better in NGC holders. It's as simple as that. 🐓 

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On 5/29/2022 at 5:30 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I know!  And maybe the Fairy Godmother will bring me a new Corvette.  :roflmao:

Bleep that, when I'm not "Goldfinger" my moniker is usually "CorvetteKid" so have that Fairy Godmother drop the car off to ME !!!!!!!!  xD  (thumbsu

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Recent Prices:

  • 1928 OGH MS-66...............$3,624 w/bp
  • 1927 MS-66 1927..............$3,574
  • 1924 NGC MS-66+.............$3,750

And an MCMVII HR Details went for over $10K...haven't seen that in a while....$10,520.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/14/2022 at 2:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Recent Prices:

  • 1928 OGH MS-66...............$3,624 w/bp
  • 1927 MS-66 1927..............$3,574
  • 1924 NGC MS-66+.............$3,750

And an MCMVII HR Details went for over $10K...haven't seen that in a while....$10,520.

The 1907 [MCMVII] HR details, should be marked.......... $10,520 w/hbp, i.e., w/high blood pressure.  :roflmao:

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Sunday GC Saint-Gaudens Results (final bids rounded; all TPGs PCGS unless listed NGC):

  • 1928 MS-66 OGH CAC.....$5,700
  • 1928 MS-66.......................$4,000
  • 1928 MS-66+ CAC............$8,600
  • 1927 MS-66.......................$3,400
  • 1927 MS-66+ CAC............$7,300
  • 1924 MS-66.......................$3,500 (3 sold basically identically)
  • 1924 MS-66+ CAC NGC did not get any bids at the asking price of $7,000 w/bp.
  • 1924 MS-66+ CAC PCGS also got no bids at about $6,800
  • 1924 MS-66 CAC...............$5,200
  • 1924 MS-66 CAC...............$5,900 HALF DOME COLLECT
  • 1923-D MS-66 NGC ..........NO BIDS @ $6,800
  • 1908 NM MS-66 NGC........$3,400
Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/27/2022 at 11:37 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sunday GC Saint-Gaudens Results (final bids rounded; all TPGs PCGS unless listed NGC):

  • 1928 MS-66 OGH CAC.....$5,700
  • 1928 MS-66.......................$4,000
  • 1928 MS-66+ CAC............$8,600
  • 1927 MS-66.......................$3,400
  • 1927 MS-66+ CAC............$7,300
  • 1924 MS-66.......................$3,500 (3 sold basically identically)
  • 1924 MS-66+ CAC NGC did not get any bids at the asking price of $7,000 w/bp.
  • 1924 MS-66+ CAC PCGS also got no bids at about $6,800
  • 1924 MS-66 CAC...............$5,200
  • 1924 MS-66 CAC...............$5,900 HALF DOME COLLECT
  • 1923-D MS-66 NGC ..........NO BIDS @ $6,800
  • 1908 NM MS-66 NGC........$3,400

Just looked up the pops for these dates.

Even with a CAC sticker, none of the counts are low in those grades: 286, 725, 605, and 358.  Maybe some duplicates if someone cracked it out of the holder for regrading and sent it back to CAC.

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On 6/27/2022 at 6:16 PM, World Colonial said:

Just looked up the pops for these dates. Even with a CAC sticker, none of the counts are low in those grades: 286, 725, 605, and 358.  Maybe some duplicates if someone cracked it out of the holder for regrading and sent it back to CAC.

What about the counts for the 66-plusses ?

Those aren't HUGE pops....in other words, they are somewhat rare in top condition.  Keep in mind that you have about 500 serious collectors (maybe more) who want top or near-top condition coins where they can afford it (and these people generally have the $$$).....throw in a minority of the 25,000 Type Collectors who buy upscale and that explains the prices for what might appear to be a "plentiful" coin in the condition.

The Total Populations for these coins are of course much larger.  Hence why even in top condition these coins are less than an MCMVII which has a total production of just over 12,000 and 8,000 survivors today (estimated).

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/27/2022 at 6:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What about for the 66-plusses ?

My understanding is that CAC ignores "+".  Might be wrong about that but didn't see it in their pop report.  Under this assumption, I wouldn't assume that any "+" coin with a CAC sticker is a candidate for a 67.  It's presumably already "nice" for the grade.

On 6/27/2022 at 6:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Those aren't HUGE pops....in other words, they are somewhat rare in top condition. 

That's not even close to rare for any coin in this grade, even ignoring other grades.  Look at the TPG data and you'll see that other than Morgan and Peace dollars, it's only common Saints and Liberty Head double eagles that virtually ever have this many among pre-1933 US.

On 6/27/2022 at 6:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

 Keep in mind that you have about 500 serious collectors (maybe more) who want top or near-top condition coins where they can afford it (and these people generally have the $$$).....throw in a minority of the 25,000 Type Collectors who buy upscale and that explains the prices for what might appear to be a "plentiful" coin in the condition.

 

Yes, I get that.  I also assume that there are many more not sent in still eligible.

There might be 25,000 upscale type collectors of common US gold coinage (12 coin set), maybe.  I don't believe there are this many for US coinage as type collectors generically.

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On 6/27/2022 at 6:34 PM, World Colonial said:

My understanding is that CAC ignores "+".  Might be wrong about that but didn't see it in their pop report.  Under this assumption, I wouldn't assume that any "+" coin with a CAC sticker is a candidate for a 67.  It's presumably already "nice" for the grade.

I think you are correct....CAC ignores the "+" designation.  But wouldn't a 66+CAC be at least as good as a 66 CAC for a (lucky) upgrade to MS-67 ?  Happens alot for non-plus coins so I would think the "+" couldn't hurt.

On 6/27/2022 at 6:34 PM, World Colonial said:

That's not even close to rare for any coin in this grade, even ignoring other grades.  Look at the TPG data and you'll see that other than Morgan and Peace dollars, it's only common Saints and Liberty Head double eagles that virtually ever have this many among pre-1933 US.

True, but the high bullion content and the large number of fans of the Double Eagle series imply much higher demand for the coin at all grades especially top-condition coins, right ?

And the % jump from lower grades might be LOWER for Saints/Liberty DEs than what you see for U.S. Small Coin series (I'm not familiar with their price gradient so I'm speculating).

On 6/27/2022 at 6:34 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, I get that.  I also assume that there are many more not sent in still eligible. There might be 25,000 upscale type collectors of common US gold coinage (12 coin set), maybe.  I don't believe there are this many for US coinage as type collectors generically.

Agreed. (thumbsu

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