Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread 2 2

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:45 AM, Cat Bath said:

It's actually a MS65 so there is over $10K dollars between the market grades of the above two coins. ($2,800 -vs- $16,000)

Cat, I see a pair of 1928 MS-65's going for about $2,200 and a 1924 selling for just under $2,000.  All 3 auctions have 3 days left over at GC, and prices exclude the BP.

[GoldFinger1969]

Cat....looking closer, I did see a couple of common MS-65's over at HA that went for pretty rich premiums to spot gold.

An MS-65 1924 Saint went for $2,760 (incl. bp) in late-August.    Another NGC MS-65 sold 2 weeks earlier went for $400 less, don't ask me why.  Prices were < $2,300 only 2 months earlier in June.

Gold was $1,700 in April and rose $200 into June....so the prices and enthusiasm could have risen in delayed-action explaining why folks paid up in August despite gold backing off to $1,800.  I freely admit to guestimating human reactions to gold prices in real-time and delayed-time. 

Still, those premiums are RICH and I wonder if lack of inventory and these supply interrruptions have led to rising premiums for gold alongside silver.  What's weird is we didn't see these supply interruptions in March-May 2020 during the peak of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Edited October 22, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

If any person is truly knowledgeable in all the myriad nuances of gold, from mining to investing, that person would probably be you.

[Cat Bath]

I've always found it strange that people would buy a new mint product with a population of over 15,000 when a 100 year old coin could be had at the same price.

The pop of the 1920 in MS63 or better is around 3000.

The new 2021 coin is selling for $2,650.

https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-gold-proof-coin-21EBN.html?cgid=2021-product-schedule

Maybe folks are figuring out that old coins are doable and stand a better chance of increasing in value.

[MarkFeld]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:52 AM, Cat Bath said:

I've always found it strange that people would buy a new mint product with a population of over 15,000 when a 100 year old coin could be had at the same price.

The pop of the 1920 in MS63 or better is around 3000.

The new 2021 coin is selling for $2,650.

https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-gold-proof-coin-21EBN.html?cgid=2021-product-schedule

Maybe folks are figuring out that old coins are doable and stand a better chance of increasing in value.

You’re talking primarily about populations.

Perhaps the buyers of the mint products prefer their newer appearance and much better condition. Some would rather own a nearly perfect, modern widget than an older one in noticeably worse condition. It’s somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:52 AM, Cat Bath said:

The new 2021 coin is selling for $2,650. 

Whaaaaaaaat ?  A new 2021 AGE is selling for over a 50% premium to gold ?  WTF ?  

I'm not an active buyer of new AGEs but I am willing to bet that in the past, pre-Covid, that the premiums were maybe a few percentages higher than older AGEs ?  Am I right ?

That is insane.  And with a healthy mintage, there shouldn't be a shortage although more people are buying gold for an investment and the investment folks dwarf collectors of classic gold and/or modern gold which could lead to distortions and the resulting huge premium.

Still....wow !!

Edited September 25, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:55 AM, MarkFeld said:

You’re talking primarily about populations.

Perhaps the buyers of the mint products prefer their newer appearance and much better condition. Some would rather own a nearly perfect, modern widget than an older one in noticeably worse condition. It’s somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison.

But it's basically always been a proxy for 1 ounce of gold, Mark.  I don't know if this is Covid-related....buyers jumping an expected rise in the gold price which would make paying the premium less stupid in the future....or just new Gold Bugs and gold investors moving into American Eagles.

You can still get generic common Saints in MS63 for spot gold with a 4-5% premium, it hasn't moved up that much as far as I can tell.  But in MS-65 as I quoted above, the premiums are richer relative to recent auction prices and even the historical pattern (see chart).

[GoldFinger1969]

NGC glitches preventing me from posting the MS-65 chart....this site is getting buggy. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:55 AM, MarkFeld said:

You’re talking primarily about populations.

Perhaps the buyers of the mint products prefer their newer appearance and much better condition. Some would rather own a nearly perfect, modern widget than an older one in noticeably worse condition. It’s somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison.

Handling, i.e.  mishandling a true numismatic treasure is not the same as carrying and showing around a current piece. To be fair, proper handling has been so ingrained in me over the years that I cannot bring myself to treat newer, larger, centennial coins as one would an older one.

[MarkFeld]

On 9/25/2021 at 11:03 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Handling, i.e.  mishandling a true numismatic treasure is not the same as carrying and showing around a current piece. To be fair, proper handling has been so ingrained in me over the years that I cannot bring myself to treat newer, larger, centennial coins as one would an older one.

I agree, it’s not the same thing and I think Saints are a far better deal. But apparently, many buyers of modern coins don’t care what we think.😉

[VKurtB]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:26 AM, MarkFeld said:

Thanks, I just wanted to be sure on the use of “premium”. Some people uses the word with respect to melt value or to a published bid price, etc.

Gold bugs always refer to melt, as if that ever matters. 

[VKurtB]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:55 AM, MarkFeld said:

You’re talking primarily about populations.

Perhaps the buyers of the mint products prefer their newer appearance and much better condition. Some would rather own a nearly perfect, modern widget than an older one in noticeably worse condition. It’s somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison.

This. 

[VKurtB]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:46 PM, MarkFeld said:

I agree, it’s not the same thing and I think Saints are a far better deal. But apparently, many buyers of modern coins don’t care what we think.😉

BINGO! Now for your 15 point bonus question. 

[VKurtB]

Most over-rated, over-hyped, over-sold, over-bought, over- slept-out-overnight-on-concrete, over-everything but valuable gold coin ever? The 1964-2014 gold Kennedy half dollar. Heck, the total population of “Chicago bought” slabbed coins exceeds the total number sold there. So the number in OGP must be a negative number. That’s ATS for you. I’ve never trusted PCGS from that day on. 
 

NGC required proof by sales receipt. PCGS never did. Besides, the PCGS slab looks like hog slop. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

Every Saturday for 35+ years I have looked at the price of gold coins in the next-to-last page of the BARRON'S MarketWeek section. 

Kruggerand, Maple Leaf, Mexican Peso, Austria Crown, Austria Philharmonic, and American Eagles.  All premiums under $100 or 5% or less, depending on the underlying gold content.

I can't believe anybody is paying a 50% premium for a 2021 AGE unless there's a temporary minting/striking problem.  As I recall, the 2009 UHR Saint was only sold for a 10-15% premium and that was a 1-time mintage for a unique historical coin.  

Edited September 26, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

2021 American Gold Eagles:  On Ebay, looks like they are selling for spot, not sure where this 50% premium talk is coming from.  Maybe PF70's ?

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=2021+american+gold+eagle&_sacat=11116

[MarkFeld]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:04 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

2021 American Gold Eagles:  On Ebay, looks like they are selling for spot, not sure where this 50% premium talk is coming from.  Maybe PF70's ?

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=2021+american+gold+eagle&_sacat=11116

The link that was provided with the $2650 comment was for Proofs from the Mint.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/26/2021 at 6:12 AM, MarkFeld said:

The link that was provided with the $2650 comment was for Proofs from the Mint.

Thanks Mark....I haven't bought too many modern Proof gold coins but again, that seems extremely rich.  I think there would have been more discussion and threads if proofs commanded that premium in the past.

[Cat Bath]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:55 AM, MarkFeld said:

You’re talking primarily about populations.

Perhaps the buyers of the mint products prefer their newer appearance and much better condition. Some would rather own a nearly perfect, modern widget than an older one in noticeably worse condition. It’s somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison.

With the current obsession seeming to regard "investment" over all else, this strikes me as odd.

And yes, I was talking entirely about populations.

Early on I did the same thing though. Before saints, I collected modern world bullion that was not slabbed.

Maybe proof/circ. AGE's are a gateway coin to saints  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:08 PM, Cat Bath said:

Early on I did the same thing though. Before saints, I collected modern world bullion that was not slabbed.

Maybe proof/circ. AGE's are a gateway coin to saints  

Ditto....I think once you move from AGEs to Proof AGEs and other special coins, it's only a matter of time before you gravitate to classic gold coins.  I didn't know about Saint-Gaudens coins until I bought the 2009 UHR. 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

SUNDAY AUCTIONS:  I saw that a few 1928 MS-65 Saints went for about $2,200 - $2,300 on GC, that's without the bp.  $2,500 and $2,600 with bp (rounding up/down to nearest $100, BTW).  A 1924 MS-65 went for just over $2,000 w/out, and just under $2,300 with bp.

I was a bit surprised....I thought in MS-65 condition, that 1928's and 1924's were interchangeable.  1928's go for a richer premium.  I'll have to check the population numbers, but I thought 1924 vs. 1927 vs. 1928 -- minimal difference.  Here it's a few hundred dollars, or another 10-15%. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/27/2021 at 12:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Ditto....I think once you move from AGEs to Proof AGEs and other special coins, it's only a matter of time before you gravitate to classic gold coins.  I didn't know about Saint-Gaudens coins until I bought the 2009 UHR. 

 

Ten, twenty, thirty years from now members, maybe you two!, will vaguely recall that some quirky guy said: "I don't think so. I just don't see it" (Briefly, I just don't see the correlation.) Simply put, there are a multiplicity of variables even a space-age computer would be incapable of figuring out.  If each of the owners or Set Registrants (minus the Great Zadok content to guard his privacy) were to extend to you the courtesy of a simple, respectfully brief interview, I might be inclined to listen, but until then, yours are little more than upbeat prognostications much like Puxatawney Phil's.  This in no way changes the fact I hold you both in high regard.    🐓 

[Henri Charriere]

This being the official SG coin prices thread, I thought I would bring to your attention if not too late the NGC WEEKLY MARKET REPORT devoted a section to your coins in today's release, Sept 30, 2021, Volume II, Issue 39. The five biggest winners and the five biggest losers.   🐓 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing; word substitution.

[GoldFinger1969]

Lots of high-quality Saints ending tonight over at GC....I'll report back any interesting final prices.  I put in some stink bids but got blown away days ago. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Sunday GC Auction Results:  Some interesting bidding ended last night ($$$ figures may be rounded off for simplicity)....

On the 1928 Saint.....you had an MS67 PCGS go for $14,500/$16,313 but only 1 bidder.....$2,300/$2,600 for an MS65 NGC...an MS66 PCGS went for $2,925/$3,300...another MS66 went for $3,200/$3,600...and an MS66 OGH CAC $5,060/$5,700.  Most Saints had 10-30 bidders representing a liquid, true market.

An MS63 1927 NGC went for $1,955/$2,200....the 1927 MS66 CAC I bid on and lost went for $4,800/$5,400.

A couple of 1908 NM's NGC MS63 went for $1,875/$2,100.

A couple of details Saints went for about $1,750/$1,950.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969

I keep looking for it but you've done a good job of hiding the run-up to the "bubble" and "mania" our esteemed colleague @World Colonial suggests is looming up ahead, or does that only apply to banana-stickered banknotes?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/13/2021 at 2:41 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@GoldFinger1969

I keep looking for it but you've done a good job of hiding the run-up to the "bubble" and "mania" our esteemed colleague @World Colonial suggests is looming up ahead, or does that only apply to banana-stickered banknotes?

I haven't checked in a while, but the price on recent U.S. bills with funky serial numbers really exploded.  They were cheap -- $25 - $100 -- and folks with disposable income and plenty of keyboard time bid them all up.  Ditto SC's and GC's and Large Denomation Bills.

[GoldFinger1969]

Sunday GC Auction Results:  Some interesting results from the most recent auction results:

A 1927 MS-65 CAC went for $3,055 (w/o 12.5% bp; all prices shown are without the bp)....an MS-64 OGH for $2,088 ...an MS-64 CAC for $2,155 (close to the value of the same-graded CAC, as one might expect)....a 1926 MS-64 CAC for $2,212....a 1914 MS-65 for $21,500.

 

 

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

[Attn:  OP.   If, IF, that is your 🐓  set in the #1 spot here (with the strategic misspelling in the name's set) CONGRATULATIONS!  If it is not, with my meager store of knowledge of D.E.s, and laziness, a question; what is the least valuable date in the series, and how much would it be expected to cost?  

[CSdot]

On 8/22/2021 at 12:02 AM, Cat Bath said:

I think what you said in the other thread is true about saints. There are probably a lot of folks that don't collect them because it's an impossible set & you're basically a failure before you start.

A "complete" set is 64 coins (Basic + Major varieties + Patterns & Proofs)

A date set is one of each date from 1907-1933 (minus 1917,18 &19 because they were not made) or  24 coins. Disregard the 1933 and you're down to 23 coins. 

Eliminate the "3 sisters" which are very expensive (1930-S, 1931-P or D, & 1932) and you're down to 20

Eliminate the "hole" (1921) and it's 19 

Eliminate the "crash coin" or "Leprechaun killer" (1929) and it's 18. AKA...The poverty set. An average person can assemble a "poverty date set" of 18 although it may take quite some time.

Glad I worked on the "POVERTY SET" when I did.