Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread 2 2

[EagleRJO]

On 10/23/2022 at 11:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Let me clarify/be more specific:  when I say sell at spot, I'm talking give or take 5%.  At least that's what I last saw at my LCS and the shows I attended in 2019-20.  I got a nice MS-63 1915-S @ FUN 2020 for the actual price of spot, maybe $20 higher...throw in the weight differential, and that's what ?  4% over spot or so I guess.

I was going based on this post, but I do remember an earlier post where you talked about the 3% difference that you can neglect.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:17 PM, EagleRJO said:

I was going based on this post, but I do remember an earlier post where you talked about the 3% difference that you can neglect.

IMO...if you have a good price the 3% isn't a deal-breaker.  Especially for 1 or 2 coins that you really like. 

Now...if someone is buying 10-20 coins as a bullion subsitute, maybe that 3% and the other premium are more important.

There's also something to be said for the value of the holder, which is at least $30 in materials and grading labor involved.  Something to be said for NOT getting a modern bullion coin in those little soft plastic fold-overs.

Edited November 6, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

On 11/5/2022 at 6:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

IMO...if you have a good price the 3% isn't a deal-breaker.  Especially for 1 or 2 coins that you really like. 

Now...if someone is buying 10-20 coins as a bullion subsitute, maybe that 3% and the other premium are more important.

There's also something to be said for the value of the holder, which is at least $30 in materials and grading labor involved.  Something to be said for getting a modern bullion coin in those little soft plastic fold-overs.

I was looking for common Saint around $1,800 to $1,850 including a seller markup including the TPG slab, and the BP or dealer markup as previously noted. But they were going for alot more, so I passed and bought some Morgans. I will see where gold Saints or Indian head half eagles are at after the winter.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:17 PM, EagleRJO said:

I was going based on this post, but I do remember an earlier post where you talked about the 3% difference that you can neglect.

If a deal is fairly-priced for the coin and grade, the 3% isn't usually a deal-breaker.

If a coin was raw it might be.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/5/2022 at 9:16 PM, EagleRJO said:

I was looking for common Saint around $1,800 to $1,850 including a seller markup including the TPG slab, and the BP or dealer markup as previously noted. But they were going for alot more, so I passed and bought some Morgans. I will see where gold Saints or Indian head half eagles are at after the winter.

I think gold was about today's price back during FUN 2020 and I got the 1915-S MS-63 for like $1,650.

Check out some LCS and maybe coin shows (if they are near you).

[EagleRJO]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Check out some LCS and maybe coin shows (if they are near you).

No coin shows until Jan 2023 and LCS's are more than Ampex per a previous post. COL in NY hitting prices. Maybe in Jan/Feb prices vwill be better. And I'm gonna start looking for half eagles I think anyway.

Edited November 6, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

November 2022 Saint-Gaudens Prices: Not seeing any crazy prices....high asks are not being met, active bidding doesn't seem to reach a buy-at-any-price threshold.

All coins PCGS non-CAC and including bp. unless otherwise noted.

• A 1928 MS-66+ went for $5,346
• A 1927 MS-66 went for $3,712
• A 1926 MS-66+ went for $11,837
• A 1922 MS-62 OGH went for $2,140
• A 1915-S MS-66 CAC went for $20,814
• A 1914-S MS-66 NGC went for $6,638

Edited November 22, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

So---how much does Saint-Gaudens gold thread cost? This is a "price of thread" thread, right?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/22/2022 at 4:27 PM, RWB said:

So---how much does Saint-Gaudens gold thread cost? This is a "price of thread" thread, right?

I'm going to the knitting store later tonight, I'll check out the price of thread at that time. 

    

[GoldFinger1969]

On a serious note, I see lots of folks asking Big $$$ for common 1924 Saints in MS-66+ and MS-67 condition and they are not getting bids.

Just because the price of a 1924 is about equal to the 1927 and other "commons" in MS-65 and lower grades does not mean you can command the same $$$ as them when you move above the 66 grade.

[Henri Charriere]

I would be curious to know how much of a disparity in price would be sufficient to dissuade someone from buying a Saint, say, that 1922 in OGP you cited, a few posts up, that ultimately went for $2,140. in MS-62.  Hard to specify the next collector's threshold, but are we talking dollars, or percentages, like 15% or 20%?  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/22/2022 at 6:28 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I would be curious to know how much of a disparity in price would be sufficient to dissuade someone from buying a Saint, say, that 1922 in OGP you cited, a few posts up, that ultimately went for $2,140. in MS-62.  Hard to specify the next collector's threshold, but are we talking dollars, or percentages, like 15% or 20%?  

You mean the price at which nobody bids at all ?  I'd say probably 5-7% higher than these actual sales prices.  Put a starting reserve of 5-10% or so on to these final sales prices and you probably don't get ANY bids because nobody (1) thinks they won't have to go even higher or (2) think the starting reserve bid is too high.

It depends though.  If a coin had multiple bidders and lots of bids, a too-high reserve is more likely to NOT get bids than a coin that had only 1 bidder or 1 bid (or a few bids) because the same person might meet the reserve.  Bidder could be price-inelastic.  Doubful to find multiple price-ineleastic bidders except for a unique coin (i.e., 1933 Saint).

Generally, I find that coins that are about 10-15% too high -- above recent sales prices -- don't get any bids.

Edited November 23, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

The secret of my success on the left coast is simple:  I overbid, pure and simple.         

[Cat Bath]

On 11/22/2022 at 9:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The secret of my success on the left coast is simple:  I overbid, pure and simple.         

I admit to checking your set before bidding on a top-pop, just to make sure you already have one. 

So far as Saints go, the price basically went up 1/2 grade on the "jump coins". Essentially, if you could afford a "poverty set" (07-28 minus the 21) at a set average of MS65, it's now a MS64.5 for the same price.

The good news is that undegrading happens and with a lot of work you can assemble a MS65 looking set for MS64 money. (with great effort)

If I had it to do over, I couldn't come close to my current set average, but I could get very close with the quality of the actual coins. (I'd go for 65 commons & 64 for everything else) 

I'd say as few as a dozen new set collectors with money could really screw things up.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:51 PM, Cat Bath said:

So far as Saints go, the price basically went up 1/2 grade on the "jump coins". Essentially, if you could afford a "poverty set" (07-28 minus the 21) at a set average of MS65, it's now a MS64.5 for the same price. The good news is that undegrading happens and with a lot of work you can assemble a MS65 looking set for MS64 money. (with great effort) If I had it to do over, I couldn't come close to my current set average, but I could get very close with the quality  of the actual coins. (I'd go for 65 commons & 64 for everything else) I'd say as few as a dozen new set collectors with money could really screw things up.

With the stock market down, NFTs and sports cards down, BitCoin and crypto imploding...it will be interesting to see if bullion and coins get some $$$.

I think coins and Saints have history and great stories interwoven into them, but I just don't know if today's generation will learn about them playing Call of Duty or Fortnight. 

[Cat Bath]

Saving for a 29 is about a lost cause. It goes up faster than I can do it. A MS64 was 45K in 2020 and now it's 85K.

Maybe it's time to start chasing chickens again.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:17 AM, Cat Bath said:

Saving for a 29 is about a lost cause. It goes up faster than I can do it. A MS64 was 45K in 2020 and now it's 85K.

Maybe it's time to start chasing chickens again.

Well, that move certainly wasn't a result of stimulus checks or Covid-19.  The investors who can afford a 5-figure coin approaching 6-figures is very small....but it's much larger than those writing out 7-figures for the elite coins in high grade.

Have other Saints like the Fab Five almost doubled in price or is that move limited to the 1929 ?  It tends to be among the most affordable of the end of the series Saints.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:51 PM, Cat Bath said:

 ... I'd say as few as a dozen new set collectors with money could really screw things up.

While I can't speak for Saints, I can attest to the fact that the number of Rooster set registrants has increased exponentially.  Only problem is, with the exception of a few, they all hit an invisible wall.  Half the set is easy-peasy; the other half is deceptively difficult.  I have a feeling, and I am no exception, set registrants do not sit down and take a sober reflection of exactly what they are getting themselves into.  Something about a coin or perhaps the series intrigues them and they go all in like "Jeopardy James."  There's no dissuading them.  They do the best they can within their means and let the chips fall where they may. For some, it is a labor of love conducted over a lifetime.  Others, like myself, are smitten and seized with the irresistible compulsion to complete a series with only availability hindering their advance.  No such collector has an appreciable understanding of where the rough patches lie until they have encountered them.  Can a few well-positioned set registrants up-end a series?  Indubitably.  And they have!

Happy Thanksgiving!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

While I can't speak for Saints, I can attest to the fact that the number of Rooster set registrants has increased exponentially. 

How do you know that ?  Looking at market prices, or anectdotal evidence from contacts who know those who collect ?

Because the Rooster is not produced today, I think that is why most American collectors aren't familiar with it like the pedigree for other countries who mint annual gold coins (i.e., Austria Crown, Philharmonic, Krugerrand, Maple Leaf, etc.).  But the coin could be much better known in Europe and especially among the French.

Could be the equivalent of a Silver Certificate here in the U.S. when I was growing up:  you knew of it, you saw it occasionally, and you wanted to collect them.

On 11/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Half the set is easy-peasy; the other half is deceptively difficult. 

If/since many of these same are probably interested in having some of their assets in gold, they can probably use some of the lower-graded Roosters as bullion subsitutes.  Makes it still worth following even if you have gotten all the low-hanging fruit and can't afford the pricey ones.

On 11/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Happy Thanksgiving!

    

Edited November 25, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/24/2022 at 10:51 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you know that ?  Looking at market prices, or anectdotal evidence from contacts who know those who collect ?

Perhaps "exponentially" is a bit optimistic, but actually, neither.  

There are currently 64 sets of French 20-franc gold roosters on the NGC Set Registry.  (Of that number, 46 are shown.)

When I first lurked about this Forum, there were a third as many sets registered, an assertion supported by a spot-check of the "set history" clocks featured in every set, as well as my own memory.

By contrast, there are still no more than 10 sets registered at PCGS, and that number was perhaps half that when I began my ascension in 2019. There are clearly more collectors of Roosters now, than at any time in third-party grading's recorded history.

[DISCLAIMER:  In the event member Great z, seasoned veteran, takes issue with anything I have stated, as set forth above, his assessment is controlling as I am duty-bound to abide by his pontificating in all things numismatic.]  😉  

[GoldFinger1969]

Hey Eagle...I saw a pair of Saints go for $1,860 each including bp. 

One was a 1908 NM Cleaned.....the other was a 1909-S AU-55.  Both sold for $1,550 but HA has a 20% BP.  Looks like the savvy buyers there included the bp into their bidding.

My stink bids didn't hit but I am more hopeful on a 1908 NM MS-67.....I'm winning so far with $1.   

Hope it holds.......

Edited December 1, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

3 MCMVII's @ GC...a flat edge MS-65 not getting bids at $42,000 and a wire edge MS-63 where it is at just over $1,000.  

I think it's going higher.....

A Details coin is at $3,000.  I think all end later in the month after Christmas.

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 11/24/2022 at 10:51 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you know that ?  Looking at market prices, or anectdotal evidence from contacts who know those who collect ?

Because the Rooster is not produced today, I think that is why most American collectors aren't familiar with it like the pedigree for other countries who mint annual gold coins (i.e., Austria Crown, Philharmonic, Krugerrand, Maple Leaf, etc.).  But the coin could be much better known in Europe and especially among the French.

I believe the Rooster series is widely known among US collectors of any earlier (as in not "modern") world coinage.  The British Sovereign is by far the best known, but the Rooster is known along with others like the Swiss 10CHF and 20CHF.

For those who want to collect a series of non-US gold without breaking the bank, it's an affordable choice.

[World Colonial]

On 11/23/2022 at 9:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, that move certainly wasn't a result of stimulus checks or Covid-19.  The investors who can afford a 5-figure coin approaching 6-figures is very small....but it's much larger than those writing out 7-figures for the elite coins in high grade.

Have other Saints like the Fab Five almost doubled in price or is that move limited to the 1929 ?  It tends to be among the most affordable of the end of the series Saints.

Last sale recorded in Coin Facts for an MS-64 is 72K @ Heritage in October.

NGC has 126 grading events and PCGS 195.  Combined, 155 in MS-64 and 40 higher.  Yes, I know there are (potentially many) duplicates.

Coin Facts estimates 943 total, 900 UNC, and 45 in MS-65 or higher.  Unless there are a lot more from hoards, this estimate seems way too high for a series I'd describe as predominantly "investor" at this price.  There is a big gap between 321 (less duplicates) and 900+ for a coin fitting this profile.

Still, 72K is a lot of money for a coin of this scarcity.  Yes, I know it's "popular" (has a high preference) but I am going to guess the number of duplicates isn't that high.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/8/2022 at 5:22 PM, World Colonial said:

.....For those who want to collect a series of non-US gold without breaking the bank, [the French 20-franc gold rooster] is an affordable choice.

True, unless you are afflicted with an ailment the cure for which has not as yet been attempted, much less developed:  "Setregistritus," which causes the collector to lose all sense of proportion in his otherwise inexplicable quest to assemble the highest rated set.      

[World Colonial]

On 12/8/2022 at 6:12 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

True, unless you are afflicted with an ailment the cure for which has not as yet been attempted, much less developed:  "Setregistritus," which causes the collector to lose all sense of proportion in his otherwise inexplicable quest to assemble the highest rated set.      

How much does a complete set cost in the highest grades?

However much it is, it's a lot less than completing any US gold set even in "collector grades", except maybe the Indian Head quarter eagle.  The Indian Head quarter eagle has its current "popularity" partly because it's the only US classic gold set within financial reach of a noticeable proportion of the US collector base, maybe the top 20% financially or somewhat more.

[GoldFinger1969]

QA, did you post here how many TOTAL survivors of all Roosters are out there to compare to the Saints 3.7 MM ?

Even if your figure includes different size coins, it would be of use.

[zadok]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, did you post here how many TOTAL survivors of all Roosters are out there to compare to the Saints 3.7 MM ?

Even if your figure includes different size coins, it would be of use.

...120-140 million plus or minus....not rare coins only one collectible date....

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, did you post here how many TOTAL survivors of all Roosters are out there to compare to the Saints 3.7 MM ?

Even if your figure includes different size coins, it would be of use.

No one knows the number of survivors.  (I lack the security clearance to access that still classified information. )  What I can say is roughly 117.5 million were minted. The coins from 1907-1914 were re-minted between 1951 to 1960 at 37,483,500 copies; they are popularly known as "restrikes."  The 1914 was re-minted in 1921 at 202,359 copies.  [And 9,443 matte proofs were minted in 1900, the rarest date in the series--though no mention of this mintage is made in the French Red Book.]  I have never heard of the 1900 referred to as the "only....collectible date," but it is the rarest in the 16-coin series (total mintage 615,000 copies) notoriously difficult to acquire, with only the 1898 Prototype and 1899 Matte blank commanding higher prices.

In cannot be stated with any degree of certainty exactly what happened to the 100+ million Roosters minted, i.e., how many were melted down, how many left the country, or how many ultimately survived.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Routine die polishing.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:53 PM, zadok said:

...120-140 million plus or minus....not rare coins only one collectible date....

Wow, that's alot of survivors...I guess mintage was even higher.

Any idea how many 100 Franc Roosters, which would be close to our 1 ounce coins ?