Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[Henri Charriere]

7 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Quintus, what coins do you largely collect ?

I do not know that I qualify as a "collector" anymore. I am [for all intents and purposes] dormant.  I keep a small 5" x 7" legal pad on my desk listing the populations and holdings of my standard 16-piece, French 20-franc gold rooster compilation as featured on two set registries, that serve to remind me that somewhere out there are coins that have graded higher but remain inaccessible and unavailable, apparently at any price.  None but the respective TPGS know who the owners are; none have been offered for sale or at auction and thus I have not made a single addition to my collection in over a year.  I envy your tenacity, devotion, obsession and endurance bordering on fierce fanaticism, immensely.  Fortunately, you have references you can consult; I have never seen so much as a digital distillation on my topic more often than not presented in a foreign tongue, usually French or German. Your enthusiasm is contagious and refreshing and is an inspiration to me.  And to my knowledge, no one has ever criticized arguably one of the finest coins ever produced by the U.S. mint or your choice in collecting them.

[GoldFinger1969]

No books or lectures or other info on French Roosters ?  Depending on how long they were minted, should be some stuff out there.

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

No books or lectures or other info on French Roosters ?  Depending on how long they were minted, should be some stuff out there.

I will have to give it a serious try.  Thanks for the encouragement.

[GoldFinger1969]

17 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I will have to give it a serious try.  Thanks for the encouragement.

That would be a good topic for an ANA or FUN or other coin convention.....something about "Alternative Gold Bullion Coins from Around The World."  Outside of the major current bullion coins, I'm not aware of coins made 50 or 100 years ago.

Wouldn't mind finding out about Roosters or Vatican Coins or Austro-Hungarian or British Empire coins and if they exist in sufficient size to be used as bullion subsitutes or are clearly numismatic selling at a premium (and if so, how much).

Edited October 25, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Cat Bath]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 8:54 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

... I have not made a single addition to my collection in over a year.

 

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 9:11 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No books or lectures or other info on French Roosters ?  Depending on how long they were minted, should be some stuff out there.

And Quintus encouraged me to go on this Quixotic quest.

It's been about a year and I'm up to 2....Yippi

Edited October 27, 2020 by Cat Bath

[VKurtB]

13 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

 

And Quintus encouraged me to go on this Quixotic quest.

It's been about a year and up up to 2....Yippi

Is there a book on Quintus' favorites in the French language?

[Henri Charriere]

In all fairness, there are tons of raw Roosters out there (117 million were minted; untold numbers melted) but having embarked on an upgrading spree early on I quickly reached the upper limits and remain there -- stranded until I get a notice, likely from abroad, that another one just became available.  I will not be satisfied with my #1 ranking across the street until an example of each of the highest grades in existence resides in my set registry.

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

In all fairness, there are tons of raw Roosters out there (117 million were minted; untold numbers melted) but having embarked on an upgrading spree early on I quickly reached the upper limits and remain there -- stranded until I get a notice, likely from abroad, that another one just became available.  I will not be satisfied with my #1 ranking across the street until an example of each of the highest grades in existence resides in my set registry.

That's a nice goal, but impossible to reach.

[Henri Charriere]

22 minutes ago, RWB said:

That's a nice goal, but impossible to reach.

My only problem, as I see it:  is identifying the owner(s) of the highest graded coins,  making him/the an offer they can't refuse and hope a young numismatist doesn't walk into a European office of a high-profile TPGS in the meantime with a slew of Roosters, all remarkably preserved and well-deserving of a heretofore never before assigned MS-67 grade in the 1899 to 1906 range, and MS-68 grade in the 1907 to 1914 range.  Failure is not an option.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

My only problem, as I see it:  is identifying the owner(s) of the highest graded coins,  making him/the an offer they can't refuse and hope a young numismatist doesn't walk into a European office of a high-profile TPGS in the meantime with a slew of Roosters, all remarkably preserved and well-deserving of a heretofore never before assigned MS-67 grade in the 1899 to 1906 range, and MS-68 grade in the 1907 to 1914 range.  Failure is not an option.

Holding coins (and maybe art) takes on a different meaning in Europe than in the U.S.  Many of the long-established countries (like France) have citizens who remember totally-wrecked economies and stock markets that went to zero or close to it.  Newer countries remember being part of ancient empires and being parties to hyperinflation, civil wars, civil unrest, etc.

You still have people who may own gold and/or Roosters who were told about the horrors of WWI from a parent or relative....and/or lived through WW II themselves.  Lots also lived through communism and the breakup of the Iron Curtain, Yugoslavia, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Russian breakups, etc.

European psyches can be different than ours, or even other Europeans.  Military historian John Keegan wrote about how the trauma of World War 1 so paralyzed France -- which saw 4% of her population killed but close to 33% of all single, eligible men for marrying such that entire towns would eventually die from lack of eligibile future husbands for all the available women.  27,000 French died in a single day -- 1 day !!! -- in battle in 1914.  

Through it all.....France, nearly by herself, fought Germany and the Axis to a draw for 4 years. 

Just over 20 years later.....France folded in 6 weeks against the Nazis. 

 

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Holding coins (and maybe art) takes on a different meaning in Europe than in the U.S.  Many of the long-established countries (like France) have citizens who remember totally-wrecked economies and stock markets that went to zero or close to it.  Newer countries remember being part of ancient empires and being parties to hyperinflation, civil wars, civil unrest, etc.

You still have people who may own gold and/or Roosters who were told about the horrors of WWI from a parent or relative....and/or lived through WW II themselves.  Lots also lived through communism and the breakup of the Iron Curtain, Yugoslavia, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Russian breakups, etc.

European psyches can be different than ours, or even other Europeans.  Military historian John Keegan wrote about how the trauma of World War 1 so paralyzed France -- which saw 4% of her population killed but close to 33% of all single, eligible men for marrying such that entire towns would eventually die from lack of eligibile future husbands for all the available women.  27,000 French died in a single day -- 1 day !!! -- in battle in 1914.  

Through it all.....France, nearly by herself, fought Germany and the Axis to a draw for 4 years. 

Just over 20 years later.....France folded in 6 weeks against the Nazis. 

 

It was probably the Second World War experience that led to the saying that “going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without an accordion.”

[Cat Bath]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

It was probably the Second World War experience that led to the saying that “going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without an accordion.”

I would be reluctant to occupy any area proximate to an accordion.

As a weapon of defense?....Plausible.  

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

It was probably the Second World War experience that led to the saying that “going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without an accordion.”

They placed their hopes on the Maginot Line but the psychological damage to France from WW I not only led to their defeat in WW II but persists to this day, according to some.  It is at the heart of the French willingess to "go it alone" ever since DeGaulle, as if they are atoning for their Vichy days.

[RWB]

12 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I would be reluctant to occupy any area proximate to an accordion.

As a weapon of defense?....Plausible.  

Breaking News!

A massive enemy attack was repelled today by valiant efforts of the British Royal Expeditionary Force's Massed Scottish Bag Pipers, and French Réguliers et Bénévoles de la Deuxième Marseille Corps d'Accordéon.

The enemy took many casualties and thousands reportedly surrendered under the combined British-French aural assault. Prisoners were impaled on two-day old baguettes to prevent their running away or attempting suicide from the horrible effects of noise and the prospect of being fed Scottish haggis during their captivity.

Réguliers et Bénévoles de la Deuxième Marseille Corps d'Accordéon were especially effective. They caused many of the enemy to pause their attack and whip out white linen table cloths and champagne flutes. Others were compelled to drape the cloth over their forearm and stand alert next to the glassware. This made them easy targets for our valiant sappers from the 7th Croaghaun Irish Penny Whistle Brigade, who quickly rendered the enemy senseless through repetitive jigs and coordinated assault by the Mighty Celtic Step Dancers.

Civilian casualties were kept to a minimum by free distribution of ear plugs and large quantities of Irish whiskey.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

And of course, the hidden casualty of the 1st World War.....the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles, which saw production cease from 1917-1919. 

[Insider]

Unsolicited Advertisement.

I saw this thread a week ago and started reading some of the questions addressed to Roger dealing with things he had written in his book.  I figured that I should order the book to better understand some of the posts.  I received the book last week and it was completely different than I thought it would be,  This is like the Red Book for Saints.  I've been studying this series - especially the 1907 HR for decades and I don't see how this book can be improved.  There are color images of varieties and each date is discussed. Much of the information about patterns in the first part of the book was totally unknown to me.  I've got a bunch of Roger's books and this is an excellent addition to my collection.  Books go up in value as soon as more folks want them and they are out of print and in strong hands.  I don't know how many were printed but if you collect Saints or just wish to learn more than most know about them, I suggest you order a copy TOMORROW.  I'm actually thinking about getting at least one or two more copies to barter with in the future. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

I saw this thread a week ago and started reading some of the questions addressed to Roger dealing with things he had written in his book.  I figured that I should order the book to better understand some of the posts.  I received the book last week and it was completely different than I thought it would be,  This is like the Red Book for Saints.  I've been studying this series - especially the 1907 HR for decades and I don't see how this book can be improved.....

Congrats on buying the book, Insider....let us know as you progress through it your thoughts on the various sections that stand out.

I thought I made it clear that this was clearly The Bible -- or Red Book  -- for Saints.  Not only do you have a chapter on every year and mint mark, but Roger has interspersed chapters on The Gold Standard, Commerce involving Gold, the Assay Process, World Trade, and other interesting topics.  It breaks the monotony of reading year-by-year if that gets tiring to anybody (it didn't to me, but I liked the other chapters just the same).

Edited October 28, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Also of Note & Interest:  Chapters on the creation of the Saint-Gaudens and 1907 High Relief designs, including other patterns that were created....Price Guide for every year.....featured coin sales and prices....uses and differences between gold coins and gold bars.....a General Commentary section for each year/mintmark which I found probably my favorite section....Production & Survival Data.....quotes from dealers, collectors, and David Akers in appropriate spots (usually the Commentary section).....and lots more !

[RWB]

Gentlemen, thank you for your kind and gracious remarks.

Please don't forget the co-authors at Heritage. They prepared all the variety numbering, price guides, featured coin sales, and prices - a huge amount of work.

Edited October 28, 2020 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

Gentlemen, thank you for your kind and gracious remarks.  Please don't forget the co-authors at Heritage. They prepared all the variety numbering, price guides, featured coin sales, and prices - a huge amount of work.

Absolutely....it's just that they aren't here posting and contributing like you have been, but we certainly acknowledge their efforts in the production of this outstanding book.

Speaking of HA folks and posting on forums....does HA have Message Boards....anybody ?

[GoldFinger1969]

10 hours ago, Insider said:

I'm actually thinking about getting at least one or two more copies to barter with in the future. 

I may contact HA and ask how big their production run is because if the book is ever sold out, that may be it.  And since the people who buy this book are considered "strong hands" (not like college textbook buyers), you won't even be able to buy it on the 2ndary market.

So for that reason I may buy a 2nd book and keep it in storage for when my current one maybe has binder or other problems.

Still wish this book had a hardcover edition ! 

[Insider]

10 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Congrats on buying the book, Insider....let us know as you progress through it your thoughts on the various sections that stand out.

I thought I made it clear that this was clearly The Bible -- or Red Book  -- for Saints.  Not only do you have a chapter on every year and mint mark, but Roger has interspersed chapters on The Gold Standard, Commerce involving Gold, the Assay Process, World Trade, and other interesting topics.  It breaks the monotony of reading year-by-year if that gets tiring to anybody (it didn't to me, but I liked the other chapters just the same).

"Congrats on buying the book, Insider....let us know as you progress through it your thoughts on the various sections that stand out."

I am presently reading/in the middle of five books each night in the half hour+ before I fall asleep.  Only one deals with coins.  The fun here on coin forums has taken away lots of reading time.  

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, Insider said:

I am presently reading/in the middle of five books each night in the half hour+ before I fall asleep.  Only one deals with coins.  The fun here on coin forums has taken away lots of reading time.  

I get it.  This was the only book I was reading so I did some reading during the week and then really picked it up on the weekends.  Took me about 6-7 weeks as I recall to finish it.

Please feel free to post any questions, interesting observations, or pros or cons on various topics, sections, or chapters as you progress !

[Cat Bath]

I skipped all over the book starting with the 1921 (I'm somehow freakishly obsessed with that date)

Then 29, 20, 12, 30-S.....etc..

It took about a month to finish it. I'd consider it required reading for any perspective saint collector.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:17 AM, Cat Bath said:

I skipped all over the book starting with the 1921 (I'm somehow freakishly obsessed with that date)  Then 29, 20, 12, 30-S.....etc.. It took about a month to finish it. I'd consider it required reading for any perspective saint collector.

Nice job, Cat !  You can read this book straight through from Page 1.....skip chapters and bounce around....or just use it like a reference book for the years you have interest in (reading the non-Saint Year/Mintmark chapters some time).

I liked when Roger included Akers comments (I have the 2nd Edition of his book so the stuff from what appears to be the 1st Edition was particularly interesting to me) and comments from dealers from the 1930's - 1970's.

Fantastic book.  If Heritage is smart, they'll sell it at future coin shows and also give some away as a door prize to folks who stop by their tables and/or attend (register for) their auctions at the shows.

Edited October 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Some interesting items I re-read in the book:

• Didn't realize that the National Park Foundation commemorative of a female Indian headress with a different Saint-Gaudens Eagle on the reverse was an original pattern that ASG was experimenting with.  I might get one of those coins.  Still, I like Lady Liberty on the obverse of the Saints just the same.
• Does anybody know how the pattern codes (J1778) came into being ?  Did ASG or Barber just give them that code name ?  Wondering how they came up with it as opposed to Pattern #1 or #2 or #3.
• Chapter 2 "Apex of America's Gold Standard, 1907-1913" is really good reading.

Edited October 30, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

19 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

• Does anybody know how the pattern codes (J1778) came into being ?  Did ASG or Barber just give them that code name ?  Wondering how they came up with it as opposed to Pattern #1 or #2 or #3.

"J1778" is an abbreviation for Judd 1778. This is the pattern piece number assigned from the reference book United States Pattern Coins originally by J. Hewett Judd, MD. Many pieces have been added and listings refined since Dr. Judd's original book in  1959. The current print edition is the 10th, but patterns and numbering are kept updated on the web site USpatterns.com, administered by Saul Teichman and Andy Lustig.

An expanded pattern reference, United States Patterns and Related Issues, by Andrew Pollock was published by Bowers & Merena in 1994. It uses a similar numbering system using "P xxxx" as a code format.

Parts of both references have been enlarged and superseded by newer research. This includes references such as United States Pattern Postage Currency Coins by David Cassel; Pattern and Experimental Pieces of WW-II, Private Pattern and Related Pieces: International Nickel & Gould Incorporated, most of the 1906, 1907, 1908 gold patterns by yours truly; and Rick Snow’s research into  Indian and Flying Eagle cent patterns, among others.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by RWB

[RWB]

Designs, pattern and experimental pieces are also discussed in detail in all three of the Renaissance of American Coinage series of books, plus there are published articles on several individual short patterns such as Charles Barber's small run of Washington nickels.

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/15/2020 at 12:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I can't say enough about the book -- fantastic.  Best book on coins I've ever read.

I think it safe to say these comments made on your original post followed by an ongoing spirited exchange with the author, as well as other curious and/or knowledgeable types/collectors over the following twenty-plus pages, has made it virtually impossible for me to resist the urge to go out, get a copy of this book and read about a coin I have always admired but never had the opportunity to acquire. Very stimulating thread!

[GoldFinger1969]

57 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I think it safe to say these comments made on your original post followed by an ongoing spirited exchange with the author, as well as other curious and/or knowledgeable types/collectors over the following twenty-plus pages, has made it virtually impossible for me to resist the urge to go out, get a copy of this book and read about a coin I have always admired but never had the opportunity to acquire. Very stimulating thread!

Outstanding, QA !  Get the book, start reading, then chime in.   We'll debate points of interest and educate ourselves with the debate.

I've already started to re-read sections here-and-there from the book.  I may even read it cover-to-cover a 2nd time, but for now, I'm skipping around.