Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[Conder101]

On 8/14/2020 at 4:06 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Me personally....I think they were exchanged in late-1936 or early-1937 when it was clear all the coins were to be melted

Personally I think they were swapped out in 1933 when they were available in the cashiers office for exchange.  And I think they were swapped out for other double eagles during the window when such exchanges were perfectly legal to do.

[GoldFinger1969]

"The absence of a usable solution might have turned on what the agents did not do. They had no extensive investigation of the one man who could come and go as he pleased at any time of day or night: Superintendent Fres Styer. The investigations in 1937 and 1940 virtually ignored him, and by 1944 he was dead and not much of a witness. No review of his Estate was made nor were family members questioned. After all, Styer was a Federal officer, an attorney and a man of repute with political connections.

You think it was possible that his colleagues and the investigators supsected him but didn't want to "go there" ?

 

" Did Styer have some involvement in the missing 1928 bag case? Special Agent Landvoigt pinpointed the theft to 1933 – while Styer was Superintendent. The 1933 double eagles might have been swapped out in 1933 – also while Styer was Superintendent. The 1933 double eagles were stored in the same place – Vault F, Cage #1 – as the missing 1928 bag. Maybe Styer swiped a full bag of 1933s and covered it by moving a bag of 1928s? We’ll never know unless something in Styer’s Estate contains a diary, memoranda, or even a conscious-relieving confession. But would even that make a difference today?

Interesting...but the 1933's wouldn't have been worth that much more than face value in 1933, especially early-1933 when it still wasn't known you might see the entire production run released later in the year.

That the missing and stolen coins each shared the same Vault is fascinating. 

 

" We’ll never know because Secret Service agents were focused on low-level workers and not senior management. We’ll never know because USSS botched two golden opportunities to question a key figure, and thus created a legacy of innuendo, assumption and false accusations."

Not only might finding out a higher-up prove to be embarassing for the Mint, it could also prove damaging to whoever recommended or signed off on his appointment, i.e., high-up Treasury or White House officials. 

[GoldFinger1969]

20 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Personally I think they were swapped out in 1933 when they were available in the cashiers office for exchange.  And I think they were swapped out for other double eagles during the window when such exchanges were perfectly legal to do.

Makes sense...certainly possible, Conder.

I'm going with ~1937 because that is when we know the coins were first sold by Switt.  It's possible he got the coins in 1933 and sat on them for a few years but I would have guessed they were worth $50-$75 as early as late-1933.  If he got the coins in early-1933, I'm thinking a double or triple on his investment would have been too good to pass up and we would have heard from dealers/collectors who say they got theirs in 1933.

I think there are 3 dealers/collectors who say they got theirs in 1937.  Do not believe there is anybody who got theirs earlier, certainly not in 1933.  Unless they are all lying, and since it would have been better for them to say they got their coins in 1933 and nobody did, that's why I lean to late-1936/early-1937.

Edited September 6, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

Okay, I see what you are saying, BUT.... What if, as is widely reported, each and every 1933 DE came through Izzy Switt's hands, regardless of when each person reports having gotten them? That is the Mint's position, that absolutely every one was touched, and either kept or resold by Switt. None escaped him, and absolutely no one else got them directly from the Mint.

Edited September 6, 2020 by VKurtB

[Cat Bath]

So there could be a whole bag of 33's out there? 

You can send me a PM ....NO, disregard  

[RWB]

Mr. Switt was certainly the conduit, but he had no direct access to any of the coins from the Philadelphia Mint. There is, therefore, a missing party (or parties).

[VKurtB]

38 minutes ago, RWB said:

Mr. Switt was certainly the conduit, but he had no direct access to any of the coins from the Philadelphia Mint. There is, therefore, a missing party (or parties).

Define “direct” access. A lack of keys to the cage?

Edited September 6, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

He could not go beyond the waiting area in front of the Cashier's Office. He was also one of several gold depositors routinely present.

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, RWB said:

He could not go beyond the waiting area in front of the Cashier's Office. He was also one of several gold depositors routinely present.

Thanks, Roger. Is there a photo, or better yet a floor plan, of this area at that version of the Philly Mint? Obviously the current one is of no use. If it’s in your book, say so, and you got another sale. 
 

To be brutally honest, Roger, I remain an überskeptic of the idea that there is an “innocent” way any 1933DE’s got out. I will keep an open mind, or try to, but I’ve heard so much from the Mint’s legal counsel. He’s not a fan, jus’ sayin’.

Edited September 6, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

Floor plans of the US Mints and Assay offices (where available) are in From Mine to Mint. I do not know if significant changes were made to the Philadelphia Mint's entry and waiting area after public tours were suspended in 1923.

[RonnieR131]

Going too fast for me, I'm still reading Renaissance of American Coinage (1916-1921).  Luckily, two semesters of speed reading, but........

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, ronnie stein said:

Going too fast for me, I'm still reading Renaissance of American Coinage (1916-1921).  Luckily, two semesters of speed reading, but........

[Five hundred-plus  posts spread over 18 pages of tightly choreographed exchanges!  This is a well-nourished thread by any measure and a pleasure to watch unfold!  One comment by RWB posted on April 20th, only days after Goldfinger began his tribute to the author, seems quaint and modest now:  "Ok, I've bored the members (and Moderators) to the point of tears...."  No, in fact I believe the majority of viewers have looked on in silent awe as the arcane back story of St. Gauden's creation unspools at a steady clip in a polite give and take.  Great stuff!  To all involved: keep up the good work!]

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/13/2020 at 3:49 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

....and sleazy federal prosecutors trolling on message board posters looking for "dirt" on witnesses....

I was hoping at least one of those federal prosecutors, now retired and unable to contain himself any longer after reading these exchanges, would respond by taking exception to what's been said here but, alas, that would be expecting too much.  Anybody know whether the Langbords, advised by their attorney to submit the coins for authentication to the Treasury, subsequently sued him for "ineffective assistance of counsel?"  Just curious, I don't know if they were or weren't, but with the availability of TPGS, what would happen if one were to submit such coins to them today?  Would they be constrained to consult Treasury first, or simply refuse to authenticate the coins and return them to sender? And, if returned, what reason for the denial would be given?  [Heard in the Langbord household:  "I told you not to send them in!  I told you not to listen to Barry!"  An uncomfortable outcome for both attorney and client.]

Edited September 7, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Correct misspelling

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I was hoping at least one of those federal prosecutors, now retired and unable to contain himself any longer after reading these exhanges, would respond by taking exception to what's been said here but, alas, that would be expecting too much.  Anybody know whether the Langbords, advised by their attorney to submit the coins for authentication to the Treasury, subsequently sued him for "ineffective assistance of counsel?"  Just curious, I don't know if they were or weren't, but with the availability of TPGS, what would happen if one were to submit such coins to them today?  Would they be constrained to consult Treasury first, or simply refuse to authenticate the coins and return them to sender? And, if returned, what reason for the denial would be given?  [Heard in the Langbord household:  "I told you not to send them in!  I told you not to listen to Barry!"  An uncomfortable outcome for both attorney and client.]

Short answer - Barry Berke got cocky and talked himself and the Langbords into believing that he was a god. 
 

Also, there were no prosecutors. Get that straight. It was a civil case, not a criminal one. There were lawyers representing the US Mint, not prosecutors. Throwing around imprecise language on legal matters leads people to intellectually inaccurate beliefs. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

5 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Short answer - Barry Berke got cocky and talked himself and the Longbords into believing that he was a god. 
 

Also, there were no prosecutors. Get that straight. It was a civil case, not a criminal one. There were lawyers representing the US Mint, not prosecutors. Throwing around imprecise language on legal matters leads people to intellectually inaccurate beliefs. 

 

6 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Short answer - Barry Berke got cocky and talked himself and the Longbords into believing that he was a god. 
 

Also, there were no prosecutors. Get that straight. It was a civil case, not a criminal one. There were lawyers representing the US Mint, not prosecutors. Throwing around imprecise language on legal matters leads people to intellectually inaccurate beliefs. 

Thanks for the clarification.  I know what the USG got on their end. I don't think I would want to know what Berke's retainer was or exactly how much the entire legal proceedings cost the Langfords -- exclusive of the FMV of the coins. 

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I know what the USG got on their end. I don't think I would want to know what Berke's retainer was or exactly how much the entire legal proceedings cost the Langfords -- exclusive of the FMV of the coins. 

If Berke were as actually sure of himself as his bluster would suggest, perhaps he offered a contingent fee representation. For the family’s sake, I hope that’s what happened. It was a quixotic quest.

Edited September 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

3 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

If Berke were as actually sure of himself as his bluster would suggest, perhaps he offered a contingent fee representation. For the family’s sake, I hope that’s what happened.

To borrow a line from an old Twilight Zone episode: "That's very perspicacious of you!"

[VKurtB]

9 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

To borrow a line from an old Twilight Zone episode: "That's very perspicacious of you!"

I have long felt that, even assuming the government was fully correct, that the family should have been offered at least the then-current value of the gold bullion. Not doing that just came across as “mean”. Nobody responsible ever suggested the 1933DE’s were “stolen, stolen”, in the usual sense of the word, just “swapped out for ordinary coins”.

Edited September 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

Treasury lawyers insisted the 1933s were all "stolen." That was their terminology, although no evidence was ever offered by anyone that a theft occurred. (Existence of something not in official records is not evidence of theft.)

[RWB]

20 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Thanks, Roger. Is there a photo, or better yet a floor plan, of this area at that version of the Philly Mint? Obviously the current one is of no use. If it’s in your book, say so, and you got another sale.

This sketch, made by a Secret Service Agent in April 1934, might help also. The numbers refer to locations of Mint Guards.

Edited September 7, 2020 by RWB

[VKurtB]

Just now, RWB said:

This sketch, made by a Secret Service Agent in April 1934, might help also. The numbers refer to locations of Mint Guards.

Many many thanks, Roger. This is exactly the type of thing my mind envisioned.

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

Treasury lawyers insisted the 1933s were all "stolen." That was their terminology, although no evidence was ever offered by anyone that a theft occurred. (Existence of something not in official records is not evidence of theft.)

Agreed. The use of “stolen” in the case is imprecise at best, and intentionally inflammatory at worst. Most observers, of every opinion, seem to agree the actual “thing” might be “swapped out without authorization”.

The U.S. government seldom uses language sloppily. At the CAFRA stage of the case, one can observe that when they essentially said, “ we don’t need to seize what has always been our property”. And for better or worse, that is now precedential law that will likely never be changed absent new legislation.

Edited September 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

24 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Many many thanks, Roger. This is exactly the type of thing my mind envisioned.

Right down to the 25 high school students...?

[VKurtB]

12 minutes ago, RWB said:

Right down to the 25 high school students...?

Class sizes have creeped up, I hear. Whaddya think, painted circle, or cage?

Edited September 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

The Agent's letter says a group of noisy high school students waiting to take the tour, and notes that they had the attention of guard #1.

[VKurtB]

17 minutes ago, RWB said:

The Agent's letter says a group of noisy high school students waiting to take the tour, and notes that they had the attention of guard #1.

Cage. Philly high school students. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[Cat Bath]

The "7 old gold dealers" jumped out at me.

It seems to suggest there were routinely, coin interested people hanging out in the lobby.

Possibly, they were able to talk to a bored mint cashier who sat in a little cage for 8 hrs/day. 

Very interesting.

[RWB]

Gold dealers were routine visitors to the Mints, both before and after the anti-hoarding orders. Mints were where the depositor could get a fair assay and immediate payment. From September 1933 through January 1934 the gold price fluctuated daily. After Jan. 31 it was $35 per troy ounce fine (0.999+).

Public visits to the Philadelphia and San Francisco Mints were extremely popular. Until suspended in 1923, they were in the "must see" list. After the Philadelphia and San Francisco coin & medal collections were removed, and tours were reinstated, the number of visitors declined although there was still much to see.

In the USSS letter, one of the guards is described as chatting with a seller old gold, instead of paying attention to duty.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/6/2020 at 2:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Okay, I see what you are saying, BUT.... What if, as is widely reported, each and every 1933 DE came through Izzy Switt's hands, regardless of when each person reports having gotten them? That is the Mint's position, that absolutely every one was touched, and either kept or resold by Switt. None escaped him, and absolutely no one else got them directly from the Mint.

Not sure this was addressed to me, but if it was.....I agree that your point might be true.  If Switt is responsible for every single 1933 that is or was out there in the public's hands, that's possible....but does it say anything about the timing ?

If Switt and only Switt got the coins in 1933 and he could have made 2x or 3x on his investment within 1 year, I would guess he would have done so.  I'm speculating here bigtime but not sure he could have foreseen or have been willing to unload the coins in 1937 (~ $250 each) or 1944 (~ $1,500 each).

Edited September 9, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:20 PM, VKurtB said:

To be brutally honest, Roger, I remain an überskeptic of the idea that there is an “innocent” way any 1933DE’s got out. I will keep an open mind, or try to, but I’ve heard so much from the Mint’s legal counsel. He’s not a fan, jus’ sayin’.

You talking about Weinman or his predecessor(s) ? 

I would have had more respect for them if they just said that they considered the coins theirs and were going to do everything possible to get them all rather than feign settlement talks with the Langbords and lie about "stolen" coins.