Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RWB]

Those were based on models and sketches in the Saint-Gaudens collection at Aspet. Some are better than others, but they're all pretty good. My gripe is with the muted definition and detail. SG would not have tolerated it.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Those were based on models and sketches in the Saint-Gaudens collection at Aspet. Some are better than others, but they're all pretty good. My gripe is with the muted definition and detail. SG would not have tolerated it.

Aspet ?  You mean Aspen ?

What do you mean by "muted definition and detail" ?  They look pretty sharp to me...not sure who did the striking for the NPF but modern technology you figure would do a much better job than equipment from 100 years ago.

[RWB]

"Aspet" is the name of the Saint-Gaudens estate near Cornish, NH. It is a national park.

https://www.nps.gov/places/aspet-saint-gaudens-nhp.htm

[RAJ on COINS]

It is a great place, well worth a visit.  I think those medals were sculpted by John Mercanti, former chief engraver for the US mint.  (I actually met John at Aspet on an ANA "field trip" about 10 years ago.)  He is a great fan of St. Gaudens work.

Daniel Carr of Moonlight Mint has also "copied" saint gaudens designs on some interesting 'hard times' tokens and "fantasy" coins.  Here are some photos:

 

  

[RWB]

RE: "Daniel Carr of Moonlight Mint has also "copied" saint gaudens designs on some interesting 'hard times' tokens and "fantasy" coins"

You mean counterfeited in the case of the first pair of fakes. The bottom pair are just 5th grade immitations.

[GoldFinger1969]

4 hours ago, Ross J said:

It is a great place, well worth a visit.  I think those medals were sculpted by John Mercanti, former chief engraver for the US mint.  (I actually met John at Aspet on an ANA "field trip" about 10 years ago.)  He is a great fan of St. Gaudens work. Daniel Carr of Moonlight Mint has also "copied" saint gaudens designs on some interesting 'hard times' tokens and "fantasy" coins. 

Yes, Mercanti has made some interesting silver and gold coins and patterns.  I love the Wedge-Tailed Eagles from Australia and the 1oz. and 2 oz. Saint-Gaudens silver and golds are really nice.  

I thought it was fascinating to see the alternate 1907 UHR and High Relief patterns that Saint-Gaudens drew up be turned into actual coins.  Insted of imagining "what if..." we get to see the alternate obverses and reverses on real coins.

The SAINT-GAUDENS book goes into this in more depth than anything I had seen before with great pics.  Other books and articles just mentioned the alternate designs; Roger goes into them in detail. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The SAINT-GAUDENS book goes into this in more depth than anything I had seen before with great pics.  Other books and articles just mentioned the alternate designs; Roger goes into them in detail.

There is additional detail on this in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

There is additional detail on this in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908.

Thanks for that tip, Roger.

I was reading some Heritage commentary on-line from past auctions and saw tons more information on some (mostly high-end) Saints than I had seen before.  Some of it was from your RoAC book(s) but the direct commentary from David Akers I had trouble tracking down.  It was NOT from his 2nd Edition 1907-33 Gold book (and I've been told the 1st Edition doesn't have additional sections/commentary).

I believe I have ID'd the source, that being some auction catalogs for which Akers must have directly contributed commentary.  Apparently, some of these catalogs (much like the 2005 Morse Saint sale) didn't just regurgitate stuff from previous catalogs and existing books, they had new material.

As an example, this is for the Norweb 1908-S MS-67 coin (note the reference, "...the specimen offered here....")

David Akers Comments:
This issue has the second lowest mintage figure of any regular issue Saint-Gaudens double eagle after the 1907 MCMVII High Relief. This low mintage figure, only 22,000 pieces, undoubtedly contributed to the esteem in which the 1908-S was held throughout the 1940s, 1950s and forward to the present day. At one time it was considered to be at the low end of the fourth tier of Saint-Gaudens double eagle rarity which also consisted of the 1920-S, 1922-S, 1924-D, 1925-S and the late date P-Mints 1929, 1931, and 1932. When offered for sale at auction, all of these issues typically realized only in the $200-$400 price range. Unlike almost all of the double eagle issues minted after World War I, the 1908-S issue was intended and used for general circulation. That is why a much larger percentage of known specimens of the 1908-S are in circulated grades than is the case with other prized dates of the series. Although less rare than the low mintage might imply, choice uncirculated and very choice ones are at least very scarce and gem quality MS65 examples are rare with only about 25-30 known. More superb MS66 and MS67 examples exist of this issue than of most of the other rare dates in the series, but they are still very rare with perhaps 15-18 known.

The specimen offered here is, in my opinion, the finest known 1908-S double eagle. I first saw it at the Norweb sale in the fall of 1988 and absolutely fell in love with it. I decided to buy it for myself even though I already owned three other beautiful original gems of the date at the time, including the Eliasberg specimen, also graded MS67 by PCGS. The price for this coin at the Norweb sale was $39,600, the same amount that I paid for the 1926-D, which I later sold to Dr. Thaine Price. The Saints in the Norweb sale were very conservatively and consistently undergraded. For example, the 1925-S and aforementioned 1926-D were graded only MS64 and MS63 respectively. I purchased both of them and subsequently sold them to Dr. Price. After they were sold with his collection in 1998, they were submitted for grading to PCGS and received grades of MS68 and MS66 respectively, the first and second finest of their issues graded. But of all the Saints in the Norweb sale, quality-wise, this 1908-S, graded only MS65 in the sale, was by far the finest. It is a one-of-a-kind Saint-Gaudens double eagle with luster and color that is simply extraordinary and fields and devices close to perfection. Personally, I think this is distinctly under graded in a 67 holder and once I bought it I told everyone that it was the one Saint I owned that I planned to keep "forever."

However, in 1990 at the Seattle ANA convention, I made the mistake of showing it for the first time to Dr. Duckor. I had already sold him one of my other gems of the date, but this is the one he knew he just had to have. Over the next 15 years he did his best to convince me that I should sell it to him, that it really belonged in a complete collection of Saints of the quality he was putting together. I finally relented and agreed to sell it to him in 2005 and so "forever" in this case lasted for only 17 years. He was right, though; it did belong in his collection, and I am as proud of it being there as he is. I have to admit, though, despite my saying many times over the years that I never have "seller's remorse" after I decide to sell one of my own personal coins, that this coin is definitely the one exception to that rule.

From The Dr. and Mrs. Steven L. Duckor Collection.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

All of the major US auction companies commission articles specifically for some items in their catalogs. These are usually abbreviated and rewritten from published material. Having it done by the author adds authority to the catalog description and also avoids excessive quotation for commercial purposes. Fees for this are not large since the author usually gets a mention of their books or business.

Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908, and the other two books covering 1909-1915 and 1916-1921 are foundation published resources for this period - as was the intention from their inception. All three books were fun to research and write, but 1905-1908 was the most enjoyable if only for all the Breen-balloons that were so readily popped with almost every sentence and photo.   Those little 'rewards' also helped validate my feeling that much of the "received wisdom" was more "whizzed dumb" than fact-based truth. That's why I do archival and non-numismatic research first, before opening any published book/article on the same subject.

Edited January 22, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

8 hours ago, RWB said:

All of the major US auction companies commission articles specifically for some items in their catalogs. These are usually abbreviated and rewritten from published material. Having it done by the author adds authority to the catalog description and also avoids excessive quotation for commercial purposes. Fees for this are not large since the author usually gets a mention of their books or business.

Yes, it appears that a few of the classic catalogs and dated ones from very famous sales (i.e., Eliasberg, Price) or a special FUN Platinum sale like the Duckor 2012 sale, can have lots of commentary on the underlying coins.  If it's from Heritage it's likely to be mostly or completely on-line, too (though you can never tell how long something stays online ).

Non-Heritage catalogs are NOT online; I wonder if they are in that Newman portal ?  

[RWB]

Most Heritage catalogs are archived at NNP as are a great many from other companies, clubs and SIGs. A major purpose of NNP is to capture and preserve the literature of American numismatics.

[GoldFinger1969]

58 minutes ago, RWB said:

Most Heritage catalogs are archived at NNP as are a great many from other companies, clubs and SIGs. A major purpose of NNP is to capture and preserve the literature of American numismatics.

I have to spend more time in the NNP, had trouble navigating my way around the first few times I hit it.

Thanks, Roger.

 

[RWB]

NNP's navigation and search functions "suck" -- badly. It's easy to get 5,000 "hits" and have 4,990 be irrelevant. The data are there -- just finding it is tough. This URL might help - it takes users directly to the Entry 1 correspondence.

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/archivedetail/515202?Year=1888&take=50

[Just Bob]

17 hours ago, RWB said:

NNP's navigation and search functions "suck" -- badly. It's easy to get 5,000 "hits" and have 4,990 be irrelevant. The data are there -- just finding it is tough.

I am glad to know that the problems I have had were not just me. I gave up trying to find information on the site, and have been using the Hathitrust digital library for studying things like Annual Reports of the Director of the Mint.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I am glad to know that the problems I have had were not just me. I gave up trying to find information on the site, and have been using the Hathitrust digital library for studying things like Annual Reports of the Director of the Mint.

They should create a YouTube video on how to navigate around the portal.  

Even Heritage's search function has glitches.  I ask for auction records on a particular year and mintmark and I get others, too.....the 1927-D always seems to show up ....using quotation marks eliminates the search entirely so that doesn't help.

Whatever, on HA I get 2x or 3x or 4x or 5x the number of hits but it's manageable.  It's alot more over at the NNP.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/22/2021 at 5:06 PM, RWB said:

Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908, and the other two books covering 1909-1915 and 1916-1921 are foundation published resources for this period - as was the intention from their inception. All three books were fun to research and write, but 1905-1908 was the most enjoyable if only for all the Breen-balloons that were so readily popped with almost every sentence and photo.   Those little 'rewards' also helped validate my feeling that much of the "received wisdom" was more "whizzed dumb" than fact-based truth. That's why I do archival and non-numismatic research first, before opening any published book/article on the same subject.

Why do you think Breen got so many things wrong ?  Do you think he was just a sloppy researcher...did he trust or take the word of people he shouldn't have....was he a victim of a time pre-internet where it was tough to do research unless you were away from the home and literally pounded the pavement....or do you think he DELIBERATELY made things up and/or lied ? 

I'm not sure it was published but I was reading the Heritage Auction details on Saints and one year and mintmark  was allegedly thought to have had a 1,000 coin U.K. hoard which turned out to be nothing but a rumour that became gospel.  It never happened.  But I believe Breen reported it as fact in a book or a journal or something.

[RWB]

Some of Breen's research was good and some was not. His earlier work is reliable for the period in which it was written, but even back then he had a tendency to invent answers rather than look in original sources. In later years - especially from the Encyclopedia days and FCI, he blatantly lied, invented "facts," and falsified information. Portions of the Encyclopedia are now recognized as fabrication and lies; other portions have been verified as accurate; and yet other parts are under examination by various specialists. It is impossible to assemble a comprehensive errata table because it is impossible to separate fiction from honest error or reporting gaps.

The fashion of not accurately citing sources of information further complicates the situation relative to Breen, Taxay, and others.

Personally, I have seen notes by Don Taxay and Dorothy Paschal among archival letters, but only one indirect item relating to Breen. Further, the content of Breen's publications on Saint-Gaudens coins and others of that era, proof coins and processes, and other subjects indicate that he did not research original materials, but copied and aggregated both information and hearsay of others. While associated with John Ford, Jr., he seems to have written what Ford wanted and not the truth. Eric Newman's papers have examples of this.

Traditionally, American numismatics has been dominated by rumor, insinuation, blind anecdote and self-serving lies. When challenged about a statement, the common response is something like, "Oh, I'm not supposed to tell anyone," or "But so-and-so 'expert' said that," or some defensive variant. The "UK hoard" tale, is typical.

To be blunt, and these are my research opinions, only:

Taxay is usually truthful, but entirely superficial. At least he did some original research.

Breen is not trustworthy in any respect. This is because so much of his published material is patently false.

In research, I aim to build as complete a picture as possible from original sources. I then use public and published materials to corroborate and fill  in gaps or background. (For example in RAC 1905-1908 I used high quality biographies, newspapers and private letters to fill in the background for the Roosevelt & Saint-Gaudens coins and medals.)

Edited January 26, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, as someone who can tell the difference between original research based on original documents and just compiling information from multiple sources and repackaging it, I note the voluminous amount of footnotes and original documents in your books.  Not sure how many Breen and the others have but I'll bet it pales by comparision.

BTW, funny story....my first few days in college and we're being warned about plagiarizing work for term papers, thesis work, research reports, etc.  This was in the days of Cliff Notes and things like that (not sure how they'd enforce these rules today in the Internet).  Anyway....one of the upper classmen gives us the normal warnings and BS and then tells a few of us: 

"Hey, you know what the difference is between plagiarism and research ?  Plagiarism is stealing from one source....research is stealing from multiple sources." 

[RWB]

Footnotes/endnotes were once very scarce in numismatic books. I've been accused/credited with encouraging the use of accurate source citations and rigorous quotation beginning with the Renaissance of American Coinage books. For me, the use of footnotes was not only a normal research practice, but was my reaction to the frustration of reading something and finding the source was "National Archives," or some other massive archive - or finding no source at all. How could anyone find the original....it was like being told that Sunset Boulevard was "west of St. Louis." Mr. Lange, at NGC, and a few others, probably started the trend of questioning the "sacred wisdom" so many experts like to quote. I've pushed for a more empirical approach to coin examination and demanding historically valid explanations for things like early proofs, "branch mint proofs," "specimens" and others.

How many will choose to continue this more rigorous approach will depend on the requirements of publishers, and the will of authors and collectors to demand verifiable information. Some younger writers seem to be on board, but others are not.

[GoldFinger1969]

36 minutes ago, RWB said:

How many will choose to continue this more rigorous approach will depend on the requirements of publishers, and the will of authors and collectors to demand verifiable information. Some younger writers seem to be on board, but others are not.

Agreed....I also think that there is nothing wrong with oral discussions when you speak to someone regarding topics.  Some people/authors don't like them but I think direct asking of someone (who is still alive, obviously) provides valuable insight.  Imagine being able to interview Max Mehl, Abe Kosoff, Israel Switt, and others about what it was like to be a dealer in the 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's. 

They could tell us who was doing the big and small buying (and selling !) during those Glory Decades. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Anecdotes and quotations of the sort mentioned have a place. The difficulty is in verifying the comments. Other than Burdette G. Johnson, I'm not sure there is any old-time dealer who could be trusted for truthful coin source information.

[GoldFinger1969]

Good News for Saint lovers !! 

I am working on a cut-and-paste from the Heritage Archives which would have descriptive information from Heritage's past sales of the coins, as well as commentary from David Akers from his book and/or auction catalogs including some of the more famous Saint-Gaudens sales (i.e., Price, Duckor, etc.). 

The main sections have comments and observations from many experts -- including our own RWB !  -- but the Akers commentaries are larger, longer, and more detailed (usually at the end of the commentary on that particular year/mintmark).  Takes a while to search them out...not every coin had the commentary for the highest-priced sale...so it required alot of searching and scanning.

When I have it finished and then re-formatted for easy reading, I'll let everyone here know.  I'll post it here and/or send anybody a Word or better yet PDF document of the commentaries.

[RWB]

" I'll post it here and/or send anybody a Word or better yet PDF document of the commentaries."

Yuleus Kysar did that with his commentaries from Gaul....and he became ruler of Rome.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

" I'll post it here and/or send anybody a Word or better yet PDF document of the commentaries." Yuleus Kysar did that with his commentaries from Gaul....and he became ruler of Rome.

You lost me after MY words in quotes !  

Seriously, while these Heritage Saint descriptions are not as detailed and thorough as what is in your book, they can be read on a smartphone anywhere, unlike lugging your magnus opus around.  About 2-3 pages per coin, on average (though some got alot more and others < 1 page). 

As an added plus, I have Dave Akers comments from his book and auction catalogs, which would otherwise be tough to compile (and expensive !) if you tried to buy the relevant catalogs.

Edited January 28, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

20 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You lost me after MY words in quotes !  

Seriously, while these Heritage Saint descriptions are not as detailed and thorough as what is in your book, they can be read on a smartphone anywhere, unlike lugging your magnus opus around.  About 2-3 pages per coin, on average (though some got alot more and others < 1 page). 

As an added plus, I have Dave Akers comments from his book and auction catalogs, which would otherwise be tough to compile (and expensive !) if you tried to buy the relevant catalogs.

This will help: The Gallic Wars by Julius Caesar or Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic Wars

[GoldFinger1969]

Some of you historians may know the answer to this, but aside from Bob Simpson and Eliasburg, it seems that many of the famous Saint-Gaudens collections were not compiled by super-wealthy individuals.  Wealthy, yes, but not billionaires or the super-rich of their day. 

Steve Duckor was a doctor, not sure what Price or Morse did to be able to buy their coins.  And I know who Joan Steinbrenner was married to.   I can Google their bios (probably) but figured I'd give 1st dibs to any of you veteran collectors who may know some of the most famous collectors backgrounds.

Wealthy....super-wealthy....or Forbes 400 money ?  The famous Saint and gold collectors, most were....what ?

Edited January 29, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

1922-S Filed Die variety:  Below is a link to a February 2017 CoinWorld article which goes into detail on the 1922-S Saint-Gaudens and Roger's discovery of a die variety. 

1922-S Filed Die Article - CoinWorld

It got lost in my memory banks when I read the 600+ pages of the book but I was reading the CoinWorld piece and found it fascinating how Roger noted the file marks....searched hundreds of coins by photos....purchased a 1922-S at auction....all this work, just to confirm a die variety of a small number of coins for one year and mintmark.

Goes to show you how much work goes into a book the likes of Roger's Saints masterpiece.  All that work, just for 1 seemingly minor die variety for 1 small batch of coins from one year and mintmark !

Congratulations, Roger !  

[RWB]

Thanks! Any coin struck from a partially cancelled die is a rarity. The filing had to be deliberate either at Philadelphia or, more likely, San Francisco. Why it was done is a complete mystery. I bought the discovery coin for close examination, but could not afford to keep it, so it was submitted to NGC who accepted the variety but lowered the grade of MS-63 from the previous MS-64. Several are now known and I expect more to come up unattributed in auctions.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Thanks! Any coin struck from a partially cancelled die is a rarity. The filing had to be deliberate either at Philadelphia or, more likely, San Francisco. Why it was done is a complete mystery. I bought the discovery coin for close examination, but could not afford to keep it, so it was submitted to NGC who accepted the variety but lowered the grade of MS-63 from the previous MS-64. Several are now known and I expect more to come up unattributed in auctions.

Wow, they lowered the grade.  Was the orgiginal holder NGC or PCGS ?

And how the heck did you even realize those parallel lines were those of a FILE ?  I would have thought it was just normal wear-and-tear or tiny grooves in the die itself that came into being from the high pressure.  Last thing I would have looked for is sabotage and file marks.

Amazing....congrats. 

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow, they lowered the grade.  Was the orgiginal holder NGC or PCGS ?

And how the heck did you even realize those parallel lines were those of a FILE ?  I would have thought it was just normal wear-and-tear or tiny grooves in the die itself that came into being from the high pressure.  Last thing I would have looked for is sabotage and file marks.

Amazing....congrats. 

It was in a PCGS holder as MS-64 and I paid an auction price compatible with that grade. It was obviously over graded, but the condition was much less important than the filing. I rejected damage because all the marks were in the field not raised elements. It was obviously a file scrape since all the lines were parallel, sharp and deep, and extended across much of the obverse - along a path about 1-inch wide....a common file width.