Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

Ross, I just scanned the video because I need an hour to see it obviously....but the production quality, information, and slides/pictures look FANTASTIC !!

This is a spectacular video and I can't wait to see it in its entirety (maybe on my new 27" curved monitor if I go ahead and buy it ).

Great job !!    

[GoldFinger1969]

Well, I couldn't wait so I managed to watch the entirety of Ross' OUTSTSTANDING Saint-Gaudens varieties video. 

Outstanding video, Ross, enjoyed it very much.  I strongly recommend the video if you are into die varieties OR if you are interested in Saints.

Comments & video highlights from Ross' Saints Variety video:

• Relative to Morgans much fewer people collecting varieties.....fewer Saints have die varieties and I do believe the greater cost at about 10-20x (Saint vs. Morgan) explains the lack of focus on higher-priced coin varieties.
• Did I hear Ross say that potentially there could be 1,500 varieties ?
• Saints have 137 total varieties....75 die variations....18 mintmark styles....44 repunched mintmark varieties.
• Cherry Pickers:  6 SG varieties, then the TPGs take note and may note it on the label.
• NGC's own David Lange (who posts here) runs Variety Plus page with lots of Saint focus.  He says there's alot more focus today on Saint die issues than 20 years ago.  This is not surprising, as there is alot more information out there today (Roger's book, YouTube videos, internet, message forums, etc.).
• Good point about lower-grades being undergraded in common types (doesn't pay to get it graded).
• Spelling error:  INSIGHT at 9 minute mark, not "incite" 
• Does the 1909/08 still command a premium ?  Akers said the 1909 straight is rarer.  I'll have to check recent sales prices.
• 6 Legit Varieties:   1909/08, 1909-S/S, 1911-D/D, 1922 DDR, 1925 DDR, 1926 TDO
• NGC-only varieties:  1909 S/S (Breen, RWB, V+), 1922 TDO, 1922-S Filed Die, 1922 Slashed 2, 1923 DDR, 1924 DDO, 1928 DDO 
• 1922-S Filed Die:  Amazing that it wasn't considered evidence of a counterfeit when you think about it, IMO. 
• Roger, Ross:  You guys just looked through HA for coins that had the die variations ?  Wow.....had to be time consuming.
• Difference between the "double gown" and 1909/08 is important, IMO.....I think the former is a bit of minutae and only MAJOR varieties are getting noticed because again...the coins are more expensive, as Ross notes.
• Why are Cherrypickers and some dealers "tougher" on gold than on silver ?  Is it because of the price ?  It would appear so.
• FYI.....1909/08 is considered separately as a coin but part of the 1909 population census and mintage.
• Is the 1911 D/D 2x regular 1911 in price ?  I'll have to re-check that.  I can't believe the price went up 6-fold for the same coin with only the slab noting the variety being the difference.

Big Picture:  I think that the key is that the HIGHER PRICE of Saints and other gold coins has diluted the importance and impact of die varieties EXCEPT major ones like mintmarks and re-punches.  Most investors have enough problem buying enough of the coins such that if they have extra $$$ they'd rather (1) buy more Saints or (2) increase the grade of coin they buy....as opposed to chase and pay up for die varieties (except the major ones).

Fascinating that Ross bought that 1922.  But until all these varieties are listed on the labels like the Morgan/VAM identifiers, then you may or may NOT have individuals "overpaying" for a certain grade because THEY see the die variety...but others may not and the label/slab doesn't note the variety.

Overall, an excellent and informative video.  I am NOT a die variety collector -- because I am still just trying to buy ANY Saints to add to my collection  -- and it's not a major interest of mine compared to other coin attributes, but my interest was piqued by Roger's book and Ross' video was an excellent detailed follow-up to the SAINT GAUDENS DOUBLE EAGLE book and was worthwhile and interesting.

Congratulations, Ross, and thanks for spending the time and effort on the video. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Excellent work, Ross. And a very useful review and comments GoldFinger1969.

[GoldFinger1969]

According to one of the online coin mags, there are about 500 serious Saint-Gaudens collectors who are looking to get all or most of the coins, registry players, etc.  And there are about 25,000 type collectors who buy much less frequently but will buy as $$$ allows (like me ).

That goes along way to explain the relative indifference to die varieties on Saints relative to Morgans (or other coins).  The pool of buyers is much smaller.  I'll wager that the corresponding numbers for Morgans are tens of thousands and a million, respectively.

Edited March 24, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

On 3/22/2021 at 11:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Any plans to speak at a big coin show like FUN in the future ?

That was my original intention in 2020, but covid intervened so I was relegated to virtual venues.  I can't complain because It has been a new experience and rewarding in it's own way, but I am sorry to have missed the direct feedback a live audience provides.  Unless I can continue to contribute new information to future talks on this subject, I will probably move on to other "less intense" coin topics.  I do like promoting the work of others (like Roger) and supporting their research efforts.  It has been a privilege to be sure.

Funny you should mention Astronomy... my local Coin buddy and I are also Astronomy buffs.  Maybe it has something to do will all those stars on the coins!  One of my coin collecting themes is zodiac medals and other Astronomy themed coins and medals.      

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, Ross J said:

Funny you should mention Astronomy... my local Coin buddy and I are also Astronomy buffs.  Maybe it has something to do will all those stars on the coins!  One of my coin collecting themes is zodiac medals and other Astronomy themed coins and medals.      

I'm a member of Rockland Astronomy Club and we put on NEAF every April (except 2020 and 2021 because of Covid ).

We professionally tape our world-class and Nobel Laureate speakers and have them on our channel.  Check them out:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ03kS2hnMqta3Goq8u_2Pg

[GoldFinger1969]

3 minutes ago, Ross J said:

That was my original intention in 2020

You would have JUST made it at FUN (was my 1st time) as Covid didn't take hold for another 6-8 weeks so hopefully you can do it in the future and I'll probably be there.

[RAJ on COINS]

I planned to do it later in 2020, coincident with the release of the sixth edition CPG.  Probably at a Whitman Expo in Baltimore, but they all got cancelled!  (And the CPG release got indefinitely postpioned!)

[RAJ on COINS]

Incite vs Insight... Spell checker doesn't always pick the right one when they are both legitimate words... anyway, "incite"(interest) is what I am trying to do!  (But I know you have the insight to know that!) 

[RAJ on COINS]

Will comment on other point later... off to get my covid vaccine...

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Ross J said:

Will comment on other point later... off to get my covid vaccine...

Great minds think alike !!  Just got my 1st shot (Moderna) an hour ago. 

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Ross J said:

I planned to do it later in 2020, coincident with the release of the sixth edition CPG.  Probably at a Whitman Expo in Baltimore, but they all got cancelled!  (And the CPG release got indefinitely postpioned!)

Keep me/us posted about Whitman Baltimore November 2021...will probably happen and I plan on going at least one day.

[RAJ on COINS]

17 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

 

Comments & video highlights from Ross' Saints Variety video:

• 1) Relative to Morgans much fewer people collecting varieties.....fewer Saints have die varieties and I do believe the greater cost at about 10-20x (Saint vs. Morgan) explains the lack of focus on higher-priced coin varieties.
• 2) Did I hear Ross say that potentially there could be 1,500 varieties ?
• 3) Saints have 137 total varieties....75 die variations....18 mintmark styles....44 repunched mintmark varieties.
• 4) Cherry Pickers:  6 SG varieties, then the TPGs take note and may note it on the label.
• 5) NGC's own David Lange (who posts here) runs Variety Plus page with lots of Saint focus.  He says there's alot more focus today on Saint die issues than 20 years ago.  This is not surprising, as there is alot more information out there today (Roger's book, YouTube videos, internet, message forums, etc.).
• 6) Good point about lower-grades being undergraded in common types (doesn't pay to get it graded).
• 7) Spelling error:  INSIGHT at 9 minute mark, not "incite" 
• 8) Does the 1909/08 still command a premium ?  Akers said the 1909 straight is rarer.  I'll have to check recent sales prices.
• 9) 6 Legit Varieties:   1909/08, 1909-S/S, 1911-D/D, 1922 DDR, 1925 DDR, 1926 TDO
• 10) NGC-only varieties:  1909 S/S (Breen, RWB, V+), 1922 TDO, 1922-S Filed Die, 1922 Slashed 2, 1923 DDR, 1924 DDO, 1928 DDO 
• 11) 1922-S Filed Die:  Amazing that it wasn't considered evidence of a counterfeit when you think about it, IMO. 
• 12) Roger, Ross:  You guys just looked through HA for coins that had the die variations ?  Wow.....had to be time consuming.
• 13) Difference between the "double gown" and 1909/08 is important, IMO.....I think the former is a bit of minutae and only MAJOR varieties are getting noticed because again...the coins are more expensive, as Ross notes.
• 14) Why are Cherrypickers and some dealers "tougher" on gold than on silver ?  Is it because of the price ?  It would appear so.
• 15) FYI.....1909/08 is considered separately as a coin but part of the 1909 population census and mintage.
• 16) Is the 1911 D/D 2x regular 1911 in price ?  I'll have to re-check that.  I can't believe the price went up 6-fold for the same coin with only the slab noting the variety being the difference.

OK.. back from shot 1!

Here are some comments on your comments!

1) There are fewer Saint collectors than Morgan Collectors because of the cost of the coins.  So yes, fewer variety collectors as well.  But that's no reason why they should be less studied or less interesting.  Since Collecting a set of Saints is out of the question for all but the most well heeled, I would argue that studying the varieties allows a type collector some affordable options other than one or two "normal" generics.

2) What I said was there have been (excluding the overdate which is generally not considered a "variety")  around 1,500 total Saints of the other varieties slabbed and attributed (the variety specified on the label) so far in total by both PCGS and NGC.

3)  Yes, the "HA"'s in Roger's book breakdown that way, though I'm not sure Roger was the architect of the scheme used by heritage. (Why not RB numbers?) ... anyway the term Variety in the book is fairly broad as it encompasses things like different mintmark "styles".  I basically tallied the appearances of HA #'s as used in the book without too much editorial comment.

4) the key observation: that the CPG is the key that opens the door to major TPG attribution.  

5) Agree, though I have been watching the numbers climb (and collecting myself) since well before Roger's book.  Rogers SGDE's, however should have a significant impact, both in terms of the number of coin attributed, as well as the number of varieties collected, going forward.

6) A variety is probably the "only" reason (other than just authentication) to get a sub mint state saint slabbed, as only the variety characteristic is likely to generate any interest in the coin... unless of course it is one of the key rarities!

7) Yes...yes...

8)  My research says yes and most price guides show a slightly higher price for the overdate.  

9) They are ALL "legit"! (but only those six CPG Varieties get most of the headlines, as they are the only ones your average dealer may be aware of...which is why adding 5 more in the 6th edition is very significant)

10) yes and there are a few others on Dave's Variety Plus Page that NGC will also slab (grade & attribute).

11) I just think it is amazing it wasn't noticed in almost 100 years!  Perhaps it was or mischaracterized as a damaged coin.  It's pretty clear that with 5 coins found with the identical markings, it is DIE damage, not coin damage one is seeing.  Also the markings being in the fields (lowest points on the coin, highest on the die, really proves the point.  Kudos to Roger for spotting that elephant in the variety room!

12) I have been looking everywhere... Auction archives, auction catalogs, coin shows, both auction rooms and dealer tables.  I think Roger has had some greater access to Heritage materials and high grade coins to review but he can speak to that.  We use what we can find.

13) The overdate is a "standout", no question.  Anything involving the date always gets alot of attention in the variety world.  But the 1924 DDPO with the "doubled gown" is impressive in that many have been found and attributed despite not being in the CPG.  Again, fame is a function of multiple factors and can be influenced just be inclusion in the CPG for example.  There is no question that the '24 DDO is an important Saint variety in my mind.  

14) They are coming from a historical perspective that has not rewarded (think $$$$) knowledge or mention of large gold coin varieties... but things change over time.  I believe I am seeing it.  It may not be now (or ever) that dramatic, but the genie is out of the box so to speak... No one can call themselves knowledgeable on the Saint Double Eagles going forward that isn't familiar with at least SOME of this information...

15) Considered by who?  Everyone!  Why? Separate entry in the Red book would be my guess, and because overdates generally are treated that way... but in reality it is first and foremost a Die Variety, as evidenced by inclusion in the CPG!  The 55 double die cent is perhaps also considered a "separate coin" in the same way.  It is a measure of the coins collectibility (think popularity), rather than a physical characteristic.  Again, the '55 cent is a variety as well as a "separate coin" in the lincoln series.  in that case, the "hole in the whitman blue folder for the 55 DDO is probably what put it on the map!  Whitman is GOD when iot comes to this stuff.  (Did I mention that they publish the CPG as well as the Red Book?!)

16) I doubt it personally, as they are not too rare, particularly in higher mint state coins, but the evidence I produced for the video is not my judgement, but that of others.  It illustrates that the universe of interest, market action, and engagement with these coins in expanding, perhaps by fits and starts, and somewhat unpredictably... but expanding nonetheless.

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Great answers, Ross...and thanks.  I'll go over it with more comments.

This thread gets more and more invaluable with great comments and information by guys like you ! 

Edited March 24, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

I do appreciate the review.  Feedback is essential.  Between the two webinars and this blog I think I have exhausted the varieties topic from my perspective  Just waiting now for the 6th edition CPG and the resumption of coin shows! 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Any objection, Ross, to my posting that YouTube link at another website ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:00 PM, Ross J said:

Here are some comments on your comments!

1) There are fewer Saint collectors than Morgan Collectors because of the cost of the coins.  So yes, fewer variety collectors as well.  But that's no reason why they should be less studied or less interesting.  Since Collecting a set of Saints is out of the question for all but the most well heeled, I would argue that studying the varieties allows a type collector some affordable options other than one or two "normal" generics.

2) What I said was there have been (excluding the overdate which is generally not considered a "variety")  around 1,500 total Saints of the other varieties slabbed and attributed (the variety specified on the label) so far in total by both PCGS and NGC.

3)  Yes, the "HA"'s in Roger's book breakdown that way, though I'm not sure Roger was the architect of the scheme used by heritage. (Why not RB numbers?) ... anyway the term Variety in the book is fairly broad as it encompasses things like different mintmark "styles".  I basically tallied the appearances of HA #'s as used in the book without too much editorial comment.

4) the key observation: that the CPG is the key that opens the door to major TPG attribution.  

5) Agree, though I have been watching the numbers climb (and collecting myself) since well before Roger's book.  Rogers SGDE's, however should have a significant impact, both in terms of the number of coin attributed, as well as the number of varieties collected, going forward.

6) A variety is probably the "only" reason (other than just authentication) to get a sub mint state saint slabbed, as only the variety characteristic is likely to generate any interest in the coin... unless of course it is one of the key rarities!

7) Yes...yes...

8)  My research says yes and most price guides show a slightly higher price for the overdate.  

9) They are ALL "legit"! (but only those six CPG Varieties get most of the headlines, as they are the only ones your average dealer may be aware of...which is why adding 5 more in the 6th edition is very significant)

10) yes and there are a few others on Dave's Variety Plus Page that NGC will also slab (grade & attribute).

11) I just think it is amazing it wasn't noticed in almost 100 years!  Perhaps it was or mischaracterized as a damaged coin.  It's pretty clear that with 5 coins found with the identical markings, it is DIE damage, not coin damage one is seeing.  Also the markings being in the fields (lowest points on the coin, highest on the die, really proves the point.  Kudos to Roger for spotting that elephant in the variety room!

12) I have been looking everywhere... Auction archives, auction catalogs, coin shows, both auction rooms and dealer tables.  I think Roger has had some greater access to Heritage materials and high grade coins to review but he can speak to that.  We use what we can find.

13) The overdate is a "standout", no question.  Anything involving the date always gets alot of attention in the variety world.  But the 1924 DDPO with the "doubled gown" is impressive in that many have been found and attributed despite not being in the CPG.  Again, fame is a function of multiple factors and can be influenced just be inclusion in the CPG for example.  There is no question that the '24 DDO is an important Saint variety in my mind.  

14) They are coming from a historical perspective that has not rewarded (think $$$$) knowledge or mention of large gold coin varieties... but things change over time.  I believe I am seeing it.  It may not be now (or ever) that dramatic, but the genie is out of the box so to speak... No one can call themselves knowledgeable on the Saint Double Eagles going forward that isn't familiar with at least SOME of this information...

15) Considered by who?  Everyone!  Why? Separate entry in the Red book would be my guess, and because overdates generally are treated that way... but in reality it is first and foremost a Die Variety, as evidenced by inclusion in the CPG!  The 55 double die cent is perhaps also considered a "separate coin" in the same way.  It is a measure of the coins collectibility (think popularity), rather than a physical characteristic.  Again, the '55 cent is a variety as well as a "separate coin" in the lincoln series.  in that case, the "hole in the whitman blue folder for the 55 DDO is probably what put it on the map!  Whitman is GOD when iot comes to this stuff.  (Did I mention that they publish the CPG as well as the Red Book?!)

16) I doubt it personally, as they are not too rare, particularly in higher mint state coins, but the evidence I produced for the video is not my judgement, but that of others.  It illustrates that the universe of interest, market action, and engagement with these coins in expanding, perhaps by fits and starts, and somewhat unpredictably... but expanding nonetheless.

Comments on your comments, Ross: 

(1)  I never understood the entire Morgan VAM thing -- it's the most focus on die varieties on any coin, both major and minute.  But I can't see anything like that happening with Saints.  I think it's entirely a function that Morgan Dollars may be the most collected American coin.  VAMs are a way to differentiate, add interest, and increase the value of the coins.  

(2)  Is it confirmed that the CPG is adding 5 more die varieties for Saints ?

I think the key is getting more of the investment class of Saint owners (probably hundreds of thousands) who own only one or a few Saints....to gravitate upwards to Saint-Gaudens collectors (25,000 estimate) where they have a few to maybe a dozen or two.  Maybe even a few will gravitate upward to Registry collectors (500 or so).

No doubt getting people to read Roger's book would greatly help promote Saint collecting, it's a spectacular book.  But it requires a huge committment of time (and $$$) that most people won't even investigate reading it. 

You know what would have been a big boost to Saint interest over the decades ?  If every person who purchased a Saint over the years/decades had gotten a little pamphlet explaining the history of the coins....how they escaped FDR's gold destruction via European banks and Central/South American hoards....how most were used to settle trade since most Americans preferred currency....even those who liked the coins couldn't afford to save one or a few (or so we've been told).   

I can't tell you how many family members or investment associates or clients I knew who purchased Saints -- mostly through Blanchard or Monex -- and just let them sit there, never understanding what they had purchased.  To them, it was just pre-1933 gold....1 oz. gold bullion, nothing more. 

I knew NOTHING about the history of Saints myself until after I purchased the 2009 UHR and began to investigate the origins of the original 1907 MCMVII UHR.  The last few years I read the books by Bowers, Akers, and Roger.  Now it will probably spur me to buy other books that may only touch upon Saints partly, like the Renaissance book and Bowers' Hoard book.

Edited March 26, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Some thoughts:

#1 – A very large sample of all Morgan dollars, from most dies still exist. That allows subdivision of die varieties and exploration of minutiae not possible in other coin series. DE – Liberty and S-G – have only a tiny scattering of samples from die pairs available. Most were melted and will never be known. This limits the opportunity to locate new varieties to possibly a few dates, such as 1927 or 28, or 24, where we have a large supply of coins.

 

Further, large quantities of Morgan and Peace dollars are free of restrictive slabs. That’s not the case with DE.

On the positive side of this is that VAMs are self-strangling -- too much tiny stuff, too much tossing words about without clear meaning, etc.

 

#2 – I really doubt there are 25,000 DE collectors.  Even 500 “register” sets seems high. A promotional leaflet given out by DE sellers might be helpful – if the dealers can be truthful and not promote the phone “old-bug” nonsense.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

#2 – I really doubt there are 25,000 DE collectors.  Even 500 “register” sets seems high. A promotional leaflet given out by DE sellers might be helpful – if the dealers can be truthful and not promote the phone “old-bug” nonsense.

Roger, that guestimate isn't from me, it's from Doug Winters, I believe.  I got it from one of his articles and I am hoping I saved it or can track it down again.  And if it wasn't from him, if it was someone whose name is probably less familiar in my brain and I'm gonna have a hard time tracking it down.

But I had been looking for those numbers for years -- hardcore Saint (registry type) collectors vs. more casual collectors (like me) -- so it stood out.  I may have even contacted Winters about the numbers asking for more details (I know he responded to another inquiry I made, but I don't believe he did on that guestimate.  Or whoever I emailed, Winters or someone else.  ).

I'll try and find the article/quote.

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, it was Greg Reynolds in a COINWEEK article:

https://coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-proper-value-of-generic-u-s-gold-coins/

I can't vouch for how accurate the two estimates are but they're the only ones I've seen.  I'm sure the guy talks to lots of dealers and others in the field and he's probably within 20-30% accurate on each.

Maybe. 

[RWB]

Thanks! Sometimes he got a little overly enthusiastic; anyway, the estimates are 9 years old.

[RAJ on COINS]

I have no objections to posting links to my talk(s) in other relevant places.  Once committed to the internet, I have to assume these things have a life of their own.

Regarding Saints vs. Morgans, Roger's points are key:

"A very large sample of all Morgan dollars, from most dies still exist. That allows subdivision of die varieties and exploration of minutiae not possible in other coin series. DE – Liberty and S-G – have only a tiny scattering of samples from die pairs available. Most were melted and will never be known. This limits the opportunity to locate new varieties to possibly a few dates, such as 1927 or 28, or 24, where we have a large supply of coins." 

I think the evidence of found coins so far bears this out.  My main curiosity at this point is how many more will be attributed of both the better known CPG varieties and of the others, particularly some of Roger's new ones.  

For the record, I have never meant to suggest that Saint varieties will be "widely" collected (as indeed Saints themselves are not), but merely that any "serious" Saint's collectors, going forward, will be hard pressed to ignore varieties within the series as something esoteric by virtue of being undocumented or not well known.  Roger's book and it's future editions and/or successors have ended the days of general "ignorance" of the topic.

I don't expect that to mean premiums will "explode" for these coins.  I would expect however more recognition and "mention", both of varieties and Roger's book, in future auction catalog descriptions and general press discussions of the series as time goes on, just as we see with early gold at present.  Revealed rarity and popularity of specific varieties may spawn a few "winners" where market premiums are concerned, but most at best will probably trade with modest premiums if any.  Varieties in this series deserve at least the same "respect" that they get in other series.  This is among the important lasting legacies of Roger's research on the topic I believe. 

For me personally, I'm just glad to have taken an interest in this specialty roughly coincident with the information and scholarship newly available and the apparent rising interest in the subject, modest though it may ultimately turn out to be.

It's fun to be interested in things others find interesting! 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

38 minutes ago, RWB said:

Thanks! Sometimes he got a little overly enthusiastic; anyway, the estimates are 9 years old.

Only ones I've ever seen.  I tried to reach him to ask for an article and numbers update.

[RAJ on COINS]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is it confirmed that the CPG is adding 5 more die varieties for Saints ?

I would say "Yes" to this, as Bill Fivaz (pronounced Fee-Vah... I screwed that up royally in my last talk even though I KNOW how to pronounce it!) and Dennis Tucker and Brandon Hall of Whitman confirmed it publicly at ANA in Atlanta last year.

Though the delays from covid and subsequent editorial decisions as the book gets closer to print could change things, I still expect 5 New Saints added in the 6th edition.

[GoldFinger1969]

23 minutes ago, Ross J said:

"A very large sample of all Morgan dollars, from most dies still exist. That allows subdivision of die varieties and exploration of minutiae not possible in other coin series. DE – Liberty and S-G – have only a tiny scattering of samples from die pairs available. Most were melted and will never be known. This limits the opportunity to locate new varieties to possibly a few dates, such as 1927 or 28, or 24, where we have a large supply of coins." .....For me personally, I'm just glad to have taken an interest in this specialty roughly coincident with the information and scholarship newly available and the apparent rising interest in the subject, modest though it may ultimately turn out to be.  It's fun to be interested in things others find interesting! 

Agree 100% on the surviving totals directly impacting die varieties, I never thought of it that way.  I always thought it was possible that even if you only had a few thousand Saint survivors for a particular year or even a few hundred....that it was very possible they were formed at different times/dates using different dies.  Obviously, the more the sample size increases the greater the possibility of finding varieties.  But unless ALL of a low-surviving year and/or mintmark were all produced at the same time using the same dies, you figure you might get lucky, right ?

You and Roger have made a great contribution to Saints collecting and it's definitely going to increase going forward.  

Edited March 26, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

 

No doubt getting people to read Roger's book would greatly help promote Saint collecting, it's a spectacular book.  But it requires a huge committment of time (and $$$) that most people won't even investigate reading it. 

Roger's book will be optional for scholarly "non-collectors", but for serious collectors (who want to be considered serious collectors) is will be mandatory reading.  I can't even imagine having a current discussion at this point on the series, casual or otherwise, without multiple references to Roger's research.

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, Ross J said:

I would say "Yes" to this, as Bill Fivaz (pronounced Fee-Vah... I screwed that up royally in my last talk even though I KNOW how to pronounce it!) and Dennis Tucker and Brandon Hall of Whitman confirmed it publicly at ANA in Atlanta last year.  Though the delays from covid and subsequent editorial decisions as the book gets closer to print could change things, I still expect 5 New Saints added in the 6th edition.

I see that Whitman has a 6th Edition for Morgans (I have the 4th) but are still stuck on the 1st Edition (2004) for Bowers' DOUBLE EAGLE book.  I contacted Whitman about when we might expect an update but no word -- maybe you can reach out to them, Ross, if you have contacts.  

Barring that, maybe you and I can do the update ourselves !!

Incidentally, I reached out to Jeff Ambio who did the 2nd Edition Akers 1907-33 Gold Handbook -- no plans to do a 3rd at this time.

[RAJ on COINS]

4 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You and Roger have made a great contribution to Saints collecting and it's definitely going to increase going forward.

Roger made the contribution (years of research)... I'm just a groupee!

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, Ross J said:

Roger made the contribution (years of research)... I'm just a groupee!

Definitely don't want to shortchange Roger's contribution....but being able to watch your video in under an hour or even scan it will get people to look who might not go out and buy Roger's DE book and take the time to read it.  So your video is invaluable, too.

Hope you can do the presentation at some coin shows.  And I hope I'm there. 

[RAJ on COINS]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Barring that, maybe you and I can do the update ourselves !!

Not crazy enough to try to try to upstage Dave Bowers, Roger, or Jeff Ambio!  In any case, I am carrying their messages essentially and have little new to say beyond personal opinions.  There's a reason why CoinWorld will print dozens of my Guest Commentaries but not ask me to write articles!  (Other than that they would have to pay me. )