Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[Conder101]

If I remember correctly the plates we sent them were for Allied German Occupation Currency.  We were printing currency for use by the allied occupation and the Soviet Union (an ally) wished to print part of it as well.  We were worried that they would just "turn on the presses" and flood the market withthe currency devaluing it.  So the plates we sent had a "secret mark" on them.  A tiny capital F in the scrollwork so we could kind of keep an eye on whther they were over producing it.

[RWB]

Thanks! Good info.

[Conder101]

I went and checked the references and I had it backward.  The plates with the F were the US printed notes (Printed by a private business, Forbes, under contract.  The Soviet issues do not have the F.  Also the Soviets were provided with a set of replacement notes that had a - preceding the serial number.  They apprently thought the - was intended to be part of all the serial numbers, so all of their issues with 8 digit serial numbers are preceded with the - .  When the number rolled over to 9 digits the - was removed.  (The only US issue that rolled over to 9 digits was the 1 mark.  All of the Soviet issues rolled over except the 1/2 mark and the 1000 mark, and the US didn't issue the 1000 mark notes they printed.

The US did have notes with the - preceding the serial number.  These were replacement notes, but they will have the F on them.

[GoldFinger1969]

1908 No Motto Hoard:  Was re-reading the outstanding section on the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo hoard in Roger's book.  

Interesting....the coins were initially offered in MS-65 quality for $1,160.  Spot gold averaged about $330 per ounce and an Uncirculated Saint DEs (doesn't say what grade -- MS63 ?) was about $375.  The price guide for that Saint-Gauden year included in the book says that the MS-60 sold for $490, the MS-63 for $540, and the MS-65 for $1,150.  

Since the price guide MS-65 price matches up well with the initial price for an MS-65 Wells Fargo, maybe the other prices are off a bit since you'd have to go down to AU's to approach $375.

Regardless....buying the Wells Fargo or regular No Motto at MS-65 quality entailed paying a huge premium (350%) to spot gold.  Today, you can buy a 1908 No Motto MS-65 for about $2,400 or about a 30% premium to spot gold.

It's counter-intuitive, but when the absolute price is CHEAP the relative price is EXPENSIVE.  At these times it paid to buy spot gold for more price leverage and wait to pay the higher price for the Saint later on.

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Nearly all "promotions" involve high mark-ups and sometimes inconsistent quality.

PS: The narrow post width is not good.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:46 AM, Conder101 said:

I went and checked the references and I had it backward.  The plates with the F were the US printed notes (Printed by a private business, Forbes, under contract.  The Soviet issues do not have the F.  Also the Soviets were provided with a set of replacement notes that had a - preceding the serial number.  They apprently thought the - was intended to be part of all the serial numbers, so all of their issues with 8 digit serial numbers are preceded with the - .  When the number rolled over to 9 digits the - was removed.  (The only US issue that rolled over to 9 digits was the 1 mark.  All of the Soviet issues rolled over except the 1/2 mark and the 1000 mark, and the US didn't issue the 1000 mark notes they printed.

The US did have notes with the - preceding the serial number.  These were replacement notes, but they will have the F on them.

[The -, is a hyphen. And the #, commonly referred to as a hashtag (God only knows where that came from) is an octothorpe. Great stuff! Carry on...]

[RWB]

RE: "Octothorpe."

An "octothorpe" is an octopus named Jim with a lisp, that also plays football.

[Conder101]

5 hours ago, RWB said:

PS: The narrow post width is not good.

Seems to be inconsistant.  On some threads I see the narrow post width, on others I still see the wide post width.

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, RWB said:

RE: "Octothorpe."

An "octothorpe" is an octopus named Jim with a lisp, that also plays football.

I stand corrected. 😉

[RWB]

No need to stand. Just sit in a comfey chair and relax your bones.

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, where did you get most of the commentary on that Wells Fargo 1908 No Motto section ? 

Only part of it was from the DE Red Book for which you had several footnotes listed.....the rest is commentary I haven't seen before.

[RWB]

The sources are given in the book, plus additional analysis of TPG documents and some private communications. There is more to the story, but I could not get participants to disclose everything. That's unfortunate, because it leaves a gap that will be filled with speculation and lies.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

The sources are given in the book, plus additional analysis of TPG documents and some private communications. There is more to the story, but I could not get participants to disclose everything. That's unfortunate, because it leaves a gap that will be filled with speculation and lies.

Yes, I know Gillio said some things had to be kept private.  My guess is -- and I agree, total speculation -- that wherever the original hoard was found might have led to other claims by other participants who got shut out.

I wonder if he's ever spoken on the find, maybe he gave more details there.  But probably not.  Dealers like him just find 'em and then sell 'em.

I have to check out those books on hoards in 2021.

Edited December 19, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

I liked the phrasing in the book about Charles Barber's collection:  "...during his long career, he was able to assemble an excellent collection of pattern and experimental coins produced at the Mint."

Assemble ?  He helped himself !!   Just took the coins !! 

Maybe he was allowed...maybe it was a gray area....I wonder what happens today if somebody like John Mercanti were to help himself to some of the patterns and designs and 1st-coins off the mint press for a design he drew up ?

I wonder if the Treasury and Mint consider those coins and lots of others to have left under "authorized channels" that doesn't necessitate taking them back like the 1933 Saints.

[RWB]

Barber (and his father) paid for the pattern and experimental pieces, and their purchase was not disputed by anyone. Several mint directors did the same for their personal interests or, as in Linderman's case, for the pattern display in his Washington office. (Used with Congress, also.) Patterns were also sold to collectors - sometimes in sets - other times individually. The 1907 patterns were approved for sale by President Roosevelt.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Barber (and his father) paid for the pattern and experimental pieces, and their purchase was not disputed by anyone. Several mint directors did the same for their personal interests or, as in Linderman's case, for the pattern display in his Washington office. (Used with Congress, also.) Patterns were also sold to collectors - sometimes in sets - other times individually. The 1907 patterns were approved for sale by President Roosevelt.

Really ?  Where did you see proof that he paid for the patterns and pieces ?

I assumed they just helped themselves as a perk of the job. 

 

[RWB]

4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really ?  Where did you see proof that he paid for the patterns and pieces ?

I assumed they just helped themselves as a perk of the job. 

 

Payments are scattered throughout the decades William and Charles were at the Philadelphia Mint. However, in the case of minor coins and most copper examples, there was no cost because the value was so small. Thomas Acton at the NYAO acquired several pattern dollars in copper at no cost, same for others. Public/museum collections were also give patterns at cost of metal. The famous goloid sets were sold for metal value.

[RWB]

Gold and silver coins and pattern pieces required reconciliation of bullion accounts. Copper accounts did not for small quantities.

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, do you know if the 1907 UHR (among other coins) that were owned by the family of ASG has that on the label ?

[GoldFinger1969]

1907 High Relief Saint:  Interesting, even the most famous of the Saints turns out to be a lousy investment alongside other Saints when gold rises.  

If you look at rolling time periods or randomly choose a year (instead of data pick), the 1907 HR lags bullion just like most Saints.  In 2004 gold was about $400/oz. and an AU58 or MS60 High Relief was about $10,000 (give or take).

Fast-forward to today, and those same HR's sell for about $10,000 (maybe a bit more) but gold has quadrupled and then some.

In the 1970's and 1980's, numismatic coins gave leverage to the underlying rise in the price of gold.  But since then, its like investors have chased those performances even though the pattern no longer works.

Edited December 29, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, do you know if the 1907 UHR (among other coins) that were owned by the family of ASG has that on the label ?

The Saint-Gaudens coin came from the Mint Cabinet on instruction for President Roosevelt. Augusta paid $20, face value, for it.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, RWB said:

The Saint-Gaudens coin came from the Mint Cabinet on instruction for President Roosevelt. Augusta paid $20, face value, for it.

Right, but I wonder if the label says it was owned by members of the ASG family.  I've never seen such a label but then again I've only seen pics of 3 or 4 of the UHRs.

[RWB]

10 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Right, but I wonder if the label says it was owned by members of the ASG family.  I've never seen such a label but then again I've only seen pics of 3 or 4 of the UHRs.

Maybe I misunderstood.... what do you mean by "label?"

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, RWB said:

Maybe I misunderstood.... what do you mean by "label?"

The label on the slab...where it says PCGS or NGC.  Sometimes the pedigree is listed, who owned it in the past.

Steve Duckor's name is on a bunch of Saints labels/slabs. 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

7 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The label on the slab...where it says PCGS or NGC.  Sometimes the pedigree is listed, who owned it in the past.

Steve Duckor's name is on a bunch of Saints labels/slabs. 

 

I don't prepare labels, so have no control over what they might say.

[GoldFinger1969]

Ron Gillio was a bit secretive on some of the details on his 1908 No Motto Saints hoard....other hoard finds lack details, too.   

I wonder if these "contacts" within the banks that had the hoards were maybe paid some $$$ and they don't want that to come out ?  Maybe they were even "bought" by an equal number of modern day gold coins ?

Edited January 12, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

I'm sure commissions were paid all 'round the barn.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

I'm sure commissions were paid all 'round the barn.

I have no problem with that....higher-ups had to be told at some point, if gold was exchanged for cash.

If Saints were exchanged for modern gold coins, no-harm no-foul, but that probably required approval from higher-ups.  I guess if they didn't give it, then that would require secrecy.  Of course, at some time when the bags are opened folks would know that classic gold got swapped out for newer coins.

BTW Roger...on the label question I wasn't implying you had a say in it.  I think you got confused or my type was confusing.  When the TPG's create labels, they sometimes will add famous collectors names (i.e., Duckor, Eliasburg, Simpson). See below.

I thought that some of the patterns and the 1907 Extremely High Relief Saint might have the names of some of the government officials who originally owned them if the lineage could be established.  I actually tracked down a catalog featuring a sale of Teddy Roosevelt coins.  But I haven't seen any labels with Barber or Roosevelt or others from the 1907'ish or later time periods where they took possession of the coins.

[RWB]

Thanks for the clarification.....

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, you've seen the gold and silver commemoratives produced by the National Park Foundation in honor of Augustus Saint-Gauden, right ?  They came out a few years ago...some in high relief, some ultra-high relief.  They created the Winged Liberty and also the Indian Head coins with unique obverses and reverses.

They were all based on the Judd patterns that you went into detail in the book.

Just wanted to know your thoughts on them.  I've bought a few of the silver ones.

Edited January 16, 2021 by GoldFinger1969