Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/27/2020 at 7:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Letter of President Theodore Roosevelt to Secretary of the Treasury Leslie M. Shaw, Dec. 27, 1904] White House, Washington "My dear Secretary Shaw: I think our coinage is artistically of atrocious hideousness. (emphasis mine) Would it be possible, without asking the permission of Congress, to employ a man like St. Gaudens to give us a coinage that would have some beauty? Sincerely yours, Theodore Roosevelt" (ref:  RWB, in Jan. 9, 2012 issue of Coin World, and book under discussion in this thread by Goldfinger1969)

That's the famous letter that got it all started.  I believe somewhere else or verbally TR had said he didn't like the Eagle on the reverse of the Liberty Double Eagle because it looked like a "grilled squab."  

[RWB]

TR also did not like his portrait on the 1905 Inaugural medal, but kept his complaints to private letters. The medal was good bait for catching an artist.

[Henri Charriere]

14 minutes ago, RWB said:

TR also did not like his portrait on the 1905 Inaugural medal, but kept his complaints to private letters. The medal was good bait for catching an artist.

I wonder bow he felt about the so-called "teddy bear" being named for him.

[RWB]

According to his biography and family letters, TR was regularly given various toy bears and other animals. These were donated to an orphanage. His letters indicate that he thought it was great publicity and furthered his "rough and ready" public image.

[GoldFinger1969]

Update Time....Anybody recently purchase and/or read this book ?

[GoldFinger1969]

Chapter 6....this is a FASCINATING chapter that Roger included; I re-read it this past weekend.  It takes a snapshot as of December 31, 1933 to gauge how many of the entire production run of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles -- just under 70,300,000 -- MAY have survived based on the KNOWN destruction quantities.  Obviously, that's a ceiling and doesn't mean that all unaccounted for Saints still exist.  But I think it does point to the possibility of more hordes possibly being out there or just large numbers of people holding some coins and being unaware of it.  Or even technology-deficient banks or central banks having a few bags in long-forgotten vaults or holding areas.

Page 603 gives the breakdown:  just under 27,000,000 Saints were melted down, leaving about 43 million potentially available.....subtracting another 3.7 million known survivors and you get just under 40 million Saints missing and/or unaccounted for.

The real fun would be if there were any hordes for the 1929-32 years.  Even a few hundred or even few dozen could really cause sparks in the market.

Edited October 12, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[olympicsos]

On 10/12/2020 at 11:21 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Chapter 6....this is a FASCINATING chapter that Roger included; I re-read it this past weekend.  It takes a snapshot as of December 31, 1933 to gauge how many of the entire production run of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles -- just under 70,300,000 -- MAY have survived based on the KNOWN destruction quantities.  Obviously, that's a ceiling and doesn't mean that all unaccounted for Saints still exist.  But I think it does point to the possibility of more hordes possibly being out there or just large numbers of people holding some coins and being unaware of it.  Or even technology-deficient banks or central banks having a few bags in long-forgotten vaults or holding areas.

Page 603 gives the breakdown:  just under 27,000,000 Saints were melted down, leaving about 43 million potentially available.....subtracting another 3.7 million known survivors and you get just under 40 million Saints missing and/or unaccounted for.

The real fun would be if there were any hordes for the 1929-32 years.  Even a few hundred or even few dozen could really cause sparks in the market.

I purchased the book. I doubt a hoard for 1929 would come to light just based on where the bags of 1929 coins were stored. Given how few of the other fab five dates have left the mint, I believe that many of the fab five dates are among those that are certainly destroyed. I bet that if millions of Saints were discovered and came on the market, they would all be 1924's or 1927's or 1928's. You're not getting hoards or 1927-D or 1927-S Saints or fab five Saints. On a side note, I also have always wondered why the 1932 Indian $10 is so common? 

Edited October 13, 2020 by olympicsos

[RWB]

Regarding the question about 1932 Eagles --- These bits from the Saint-Gaudens Eagle book might be helpful. There is more in the book -- whenever I can get it finished. (The following is copyright 2020 Seneca Mill Press LLC and Roger W Burdette.)

"By the end of 1931 European speculators and gold hoarders were looking for additional avenues to profit from international currency turmoil. With French citizens and others demanding to buy gold in small quantities for personal hoards, and no domestic gold coin available, the obvious solution was to import U.S. coins.[1] Eagles and half eagles seemed to be the most popular because they could be bought by those of modest means. Double eagles required more capital but were also available in almost limitless quantity. The first publicity about private exports for hoarding was a small article in the Wall Street Journal on February 1, 1932:

     Foreigners have been withdrawing American gold coins at the rate of approximately $5,000,000 weekly in the last few weeks, the largest shipments being made to France and Holland. Those transactions are handled by banks who charge a premium on the business. This gold movement is not entirely reflected in the statements of the New York Federal Reserve Bank.

     The foreign recipients, mostly banks, are selling the coins, also at a premium, for hoarding purposes, since gold coin in European countries is not easily available.[2]

            The U.S. coins were not only of recognized purity standards, but were freely available from banks sometimes without a fee.

     The American banks are the only ones in the world outside of South Africa which freely furnish gold coin. Even in France, where the gold standard is strongly entrenched, the banks decline to issue gold in small amounts. The French banks will, however, issue gold bars on demand, but these bars, weighing 25 pounds and costing several thousand dollars, are too costly and too unwieldy to support the newly created business of profiteering in gold currency.

     As a result…the foreign vendors of coins have turned to the United States as their sole source of supply.[3]

---

[1] Like most other aspects of the exchange and melting of gold coins during this time, these quantities are estimates only. The author’s estimates differ from published values provided by Friedman and Schwartz, and other professional economists in that the present estimates relate only to gold coin. Gold bullion, Federal Reserve Bank Notes, gold certificates, silver certificates and other forms of money have been excluded.

[2] “U.S. Exports Gold Coins,” Wall Street Journal, February 1, 1932.

[3] “U.S. Banks War on Shipping of Gold Coins to Hoarders,” The Washington Post, February 3, 1932. p.1.

"Most of the 1.8 million 1932 eagles released into circulation were shipped in February and March of that year. These predominantly found their way into European hoards but were not generally part of central bank reserves. Once New York banks realized why there were many requests for relatively small amounts of gold coins, they voluntarily refused to issue the coins, as noted above."

Edited October 14, 2020 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

5 hours ago, olympicsos said:

I purchased the book. I doubt a hoard for 1929 would come to light just based on where the bags of 1929 coins were stored. Given how few of the other fab five dates have left the mint, I believe that many of the fab five dates are among those that are certainly destroyed. I bet that if millions of Saints were discovered and came on the market, they would all be 1924's or 1927's or 1928's. You're not getting hoards or 1927-D or 1927-S Saints or fab five Saints. On a side note, I also have always wondered why the 1932 Indian $10 is so common? 

How do you like the book, Olympics ?  

What's the 5th of the "Fab Five" coins you reference ?  You don't mean 1933, do you ?  I presume the other 4 are 1929, 1930, 1931, and 1932.

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks for that post, Roger, if it was in the book I forgot reading it.

(1)  Amazing that the Europeans could have a "gold standard" but it only applied to bars weighing many pounds.  Like having currency no smaller than $100 bills.

(2)  Any reason why demand for the 1932 Eagles spiked so high ?  The Depression was bottoming here (I think the recovery had started earlier in Europe as they debased their currencies) but I am at a loss as to the huge increase in demand and survival for 1932 Indians relative to 1931, 1930, 1929.

[RWB]

41 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thanks for that post, Roger, if it was in the book I forgot reading it.

(1)  Amazing that the Europeans could have a "gold standard" but it only applied to bars weighing many pounds.  Like having currency no smaller than $100 bills.

(2)  Any reason why demand for the 1932 Eagles spiked so high ?  The Depression was bottoming here (I think the recovery had started earlier in Europe as they debased their currencies) but I am at a loss as to the huge increase in demand and survival for 1932 Indians relative to 1931, 1930, 1929.

My quote a couple of posts above is from the Saint-Gaudens Eagles book, which is still in research - the quoted info is not in the DE book.

On "Any reason why demand for the 1932 Eagles spiked so high ?" please re-read the quoted material. The answer is in there.

[Cat Bath]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you like the book, Olympics ?  

What's the 5th of the "Fab Five" coins you reference ?  You don't mean 1933, do you ?  I presume the other 4 are 1929, 1930, 1931, and 1932.

1931 & 1931-D

I'm more obsessed with the 1921 than any of the Fab-5

One bag would be all it would take for me to  to the bank. Why did they put cage 4 behind the others?

Edited October 14, 2020 by Cat Bath

[olympicsos]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you like the book, Olympics ?  

What's the 5th of the "Fab Five" coins you reference ?  You don't mean 1933, do you ?  I presume the other 4 are 1929, 1930, 1931, and 1932.

The fab five coins, as users such as Saintguru call them ATS are the 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, 1932. 

12 hours ago, RWB said:

Regarding the question about 1932 Eagles --- These bits from the Saint-Gaudens Eagle book might be helpful. There is more in the book -- whenever I can get it finished. (The following is copyright 2020 Seneca Mill Press LLC and Roger W Burdette.)

"By the end of 1931 European speculators and gold hoarders were looking for additional avenues to profit from international currency turmoil. With French citizens and others demanding to buy gold in small quantities for personal hoards, and no domestic gold coin available, the obvious solution was to import U.S. coins.[1] Eagles and half eagles seemed to be the most popular because they could be bought by those of modest means. Double eagles required more capital but were also available in almost limitless quantity. The first publicity about private exports for hoarding was a small article in the Wall Street Journal on February 1, 1932:

     Foreigners have been withdrawing American gold coins at the rate of approximately $5,000,000 weekly in the last few weeks, the largest shipments being made to France and Holland. Those transactions are handled by banks who charge a premium on the business. This gold movement is not entirely reflected in the statements of the New York Federal Reserve Bank.

     The foreign recipients, mostly banks, are selling the coins, also at a premium, for hoarding purposes, since gold coin in European countries is not easily available.[2]

            The U.S. coins were not only of recognized purity standards, but were freely available from banks sometimes without a fee.

     The American banks are the only ones in the world outside of South Africa which freely furnish gold coin. Even in France, where the gold standard is strongly entrenched, the banks decline to issue gold in small amounts. The French banks will, however, issue gold bars on demand, but these bars, weighing 25 pounds and costing several thousand dollars, are too costly and too unwieldy to support the newly created business of profiteering in gold currency.

     As a result…the foreign vendors of coins have turned to the United States as their sole source of supply.[3]

---

[1] Like most other aspects of the exchange and melting of gold coins during this time, these quantities are estimates only. The author’s estimates differ from published values provided by Friedman and Schwartz, and other professional economists in that the present estimates relate only to gold coin. Gold bullion, Federal Reserve Bank Notes, gold certificates, silver certificates and other forms of money have been excluded.

[2] “U.S. Exports Gold Coins,” Wall Street Journal, February 1, 1932.

[3] “U.S. Banks War on Shipping of Gold Coins to Hoarders,” The Washington Post, February 3, 1932. p.1.

"Most of the 1.8 million 1932 eagles released into circulation were shipped in February and March of that year. These predominantly found their way into European hoards but were not generally part of central bank reserves. Once New York banks realized why there were many requests for relatively small amounts of gold coins, they voluntarily refused to issue the coins, as noted above."

Thank you for your answer! I am looking forward to buying your book on Saint Gaudens Eagles too! 

[RWB]

4 minutes ago, olympicsos said:

The fab five coins, as users such as Saintguru call them ATS are the 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, 1932. 

Thank you for your answer! I am looking forward to buying your book on Saint Gaudens Eagles too! 

The Eagle book is taking longer than expected. Data about movement of Eagles is more difficult to locate than DE. It also has a higher uncertainty rate - some of which is caused by reference to both DE and E as "eagles" in some financial accounts and ExIm reports.

(The Eagle book has also been interrupted by other projects...so I can't really blame anyone except me.)

[GoldFinger1969]

11 hours ago, RWB said:

On "Any reason why demand for the 1932 Eagles spiked so high ?" please re-read the quoted material. The answer is in there.

Thank You, mis-construed Eagles Book for the Double Eagles book.

Not to nitpick, but if the demand for smaller coins hit in 1932, why didn't it "shake loose" alot of the presumably "bagged and vaulted" earlier year Eagles ?  Any ideas ?

[olympicsos]

6 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thank You, mis-construed Eagles Book for the Double Eagles book.

Not to nitpick, but if the demand for smaller coins hit in 1932, why didn't it "shake loose" alot of the presumably "bagged and vaulted" earlier year Eagles ?  Any ideas ?

I am assuming because of the demand from Europe which would have coins be shipped from Philadelphia, the only ones that would be shipped are the 1926 and 1932 coins. In 1920 and 1930, the only other years eagles were made since 1916, the coins were made in San Francisco. No eagles were made at Philadelphia since 1915. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by olympicsos

[GoldFinger1969]

9 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

1931 & 1931-D

I'm more obsessed with the 1921 than any of the Fab-5

One bag would be all it would take for me to  to the bank. Why did they put cage 4 behind the others?

Isn't it amazing that the location in a vault in the Philly Mint determined whether or not said bags could be accessed....reach the public....and then survive to today ?

Thanks for the heads-up on the 1931-D mint mark being part of the Fab 5. 

I could be wrong, but I think the last major hoard of Saints would be Gillio's 1908 No Mottos in the late-1990's.  I know a bunch were found in the early-1980's.  But by now, I would think even smaller, technologically-deficient overseas banks would have found any stray bags or hidden coins in their vaults or holding areas.

Edited October 14, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

15 minutes ago, olympicsos said:

The fab five coins, as users such as Saintguru call them ATS are the 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, 1932. 

Thanks, Olympics !  So basically all the coins after 1929, as I suspected.  I forgot about the 2 mint-mark coins with 1931 having 2 versions and 1930 ONLY having the San Fran coin (no Philly coin).

[GoldFinger1969]

9 minutes ago, RWB said:

The Eagle book is taking longer than expected. Data about movement of Eagles is more difficult to locate than DE. It also has a higher uncertainty rate - some of which is caused by reference to both DE and E as "eagles" in some financial accounts and ExIm reports.

(The Eagle book has also been interrupted by other projects...so I can't really blame anyone except me.)

Hey, take your time....we'd rather you do it at the speed you are comfortable with rather than rushing it out and leaving stuff out.

I presume this book is going to be published by HA and similar format to the DE book ?  Any idea/guestimate on the length ?

[RWB]

RE: "...if the demand for smaller coins hit in 1932, why didn't it "shake loose" a lot of the presumably "bagged and vaulted" earlier year Eagles ?  Any ideas ?"

The large banks became aware of speculative and non-business coin export before Treasury. They acted together to reject any order they deemed inappropriate. Also, Olympicsos comments are correct.

[GoldFinger1969]

5 minutes ago, olympicsos said:

I am assuming because of the demand from Europe which would have coins be shipped from Philadelphia, the only ones that would be shipped are the 1926 and 1932 coins. In 1920 and 1930, the only other years eagles were made since 1916, the coins were made in San Francisco. 

I wasn't aware that Eagles weren't made every year, thanks Olympics !  I have Akers book but never even read that section, just the Double Eagle section ! 

[GoldFinger1969]

4 minutes ago, RWB said:

The large banks became aware of speculative and non-business coin export before Treasury. They acted together to reject any order they deemed inappropriate. Also, Olympicsos comments are correct.

Thanks....very interesting.  Unless you read The WSJ or business sections daily back then you'd never know about this.

Edited October 14, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I presume this book is going to be published by HA and similar format to the DE book ?  Any idea/guestimate on the length ?

There are fewer date/mint combinations for Eagles, and smaller production quantities. That also means fewer potential die varieties. Also, there's little point in repeating much of the section introduction material from the DE book. The E book might be 1/3 the total length --- really don't know. When I write an article or book, I let the data and documents tell the story, and that means I don't write to a specific length.

[olympicsos]

4 hours ago, RWB said:

There are fewer date/mint combinations for Eagles, and smaller production quantities. That also means fewer potential die varieties. Also, there's little point in repeating much of the section introduction material from the DE book. The E book might be 1/3 the total length --- really don't know. When I write an article or book, I let the data and documents tell the story, and that means I don't write to a specific length.

The reason for this is that not many average Americans before 1933 encountered gold coins, especially $10's and $20's. When $20's easier to count and less labor intensive than the smaller gold coins, why bother making many of the smaller gold coins for trade? Sometimes average Americans would encounter $5's or $2.50's during the holidays, but that was it. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by olympicsos

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, olympicsos said:

The reason for this is that not many average Americans before 1933 encountered gold coins, especially $10's and $20's. When $20's easier to count and less labor intensive than the smaller gold coins, why bother making many of the smaller gold coins for trade? Sometimes average Americans would encounter $5's or $2.50's during the holidays, but that was it. 

I'm surprised that holdings of Double Eagles wasn't more widespread from 1907-1933.  You had the Panic of 1907 and the failure of Knickerbocker Trust Co....World War 1 (stock trading suspended)....Recession of 1921.....Depression.....8,000 bank failures 1932-33.

I realize poor and "middle class" folks didn't have the savings they do today, but you'd think more families would have a few of them as emergency savings or stores of value.

Of course, I believe a few million (hundreds of thousands ?) got turned in after FDR's EO.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[olympicsos]

10 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm surprised that holdings of Double Eagles wasn't more widespread from 1907-1933.  You had the Panic of 1907 and the failure of Knickerbocker Trust Co....World War 1 (stock trading suspended)....Recession of 1921.....Depression.....8,000 bank failures 1932-33.

I realize poor and "middle class" folks didn't have the savings they do today, but you'd think more families would have a few of them as emergency savings or stores of value.

Of course, I believe a few million (hundreds of thousands ?) got turned in after FDR's EO.

 

 

 

Most people never even saw them or came across them. $20 was a lot of money back then and so much money to the point that the $20 coins were only needed for international trade between large entities and not individuals. You also had gold certificates that circulated in their place, particularly outside the west.  A lot of gold didn't actually get turned in after FDR's EO as many of the gold that was turned in were gold certificates and not the coins themselves, absent a few cases which were often exaggerated. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by olympicsos

[RWB]

6 hours ago, olympicsos said:

 

Most people never even saw them or came across them. $20 was a lot of money back then and so much money to the point that the $20 coins were only needed for international trade between large entities and not individuals. You also had gold certificates that circulated in their place, particularly outside the west.  A lot of gold didn't actually get turned in after FDR's EO as many of the gold that was turned in were gold certificates and not the coins themselves, absent a few cases which were often exaggerated. 

Sounds like someone has read my little booklet....

[GoldFinger1969]

6 hours ago, olympicsos said:

 

Most people never even saw them or came across them. $20 was a lot of money back then and so much money to the point that the $20 coins were only needed for international trade between large entities and not individuals. You also had gold certificates that circulated in their place, particularly outside the west.  A lot of gold didn't actually get turned in after FDR's EO as many of the gold that was turned in were gold certificates and not the coins themselves, absent a few cases which were often exaggerated. 

All true....but I'm not talking about use in commerce, I'm talking about SAVINGS.  You would think having 1 or 2 or 3 gold coins/Double Eagles would be considered prudent and not an impossibility for most Americans to have "saved up" over a few years or out of a few paychecks (esp. during The Roaring '20's, when the economy was good).

Roger's book (P. 589) says $310 MM or about 15.5 million Double Eagles were held by the General Public/Business.  But I can't find a breakdown for the Public Only which would approximate households and/or small business.

[olympicsos]

6 hours ago, RWB said:

Sounds like someone has read my little booklet....

Yes I have! 

[olympicsos]

6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

All true....but I'm not talking about use in commerce, I'm talking about SAVINGS.  You would think having 1 or 2 or 3 gold coins/Double Eagles would be considered prudent and not an impossibility for most Americans to have "saved up" over a few years or out of a few paychecks (esp. during The Roaring '20's, when the economy was good).

Roger's book (P. 589) says $310 MM or about 15.5 million Double Eagles were held by the General Public/Business.  But I can't find a breakdown for the Public Only which would approximate households and/or small business.

There were other concerns as well, there was income inequality during the 1920s on levels that are similar to today, even though the economy was good. If people really were putting aside coins for savings the way you think people should be putting them aside, you would have way more Walking Liberty halves before 1934 in MS, way more Barber halves in MS, way more SLQ's in MS, way more Barber Quarters in MS. I mean Quarter Eagles during the 1920s tended to be paid out during the holiday season and then re-deposited back in banks in January, same thing for silver dollars outside the west. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by olympicsos