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Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book
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2,565 posts in this topic

On 9/6/2020 at 11:23 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Five hundred-plus  posts spread over 18 pages of tightly choreographed exchanges!  This is a well-nourished thread by any measure and a pleasure to watch unfold!  One comment by RWB posted on April 20th, only days after Goldfinger began his tribute to the author, seems quaint and modest now:  "Ok, I've bored the members (and Moderators) to the point of tears...."  No, in fact I believe the majority of viewers have looked on in silent awe as the arcane back story of St. Gauden's creation unspools at a steady clip in a polite give and take.  Great stuff!  To all involved: keep up the good work!]

I applaud all the posts here, including those that disagree with me, for stoking interest in both Roger's book AND the beauty of Saint-Gaudens' coinage.

Keep it coming ! 

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On 9/7/2020 at 11:26 AM, VKurtB said:

Short answer - Barry Berke got cocky and talked himself and the Langbords into believing that he was a god. 
 

Also, there were no prosecutors. Get that straight. It was a civil case, not a criminal one. There were lawyers representing the US Mint, not prosecutors. Throwing around imprecise language on legal matters leads people to intellectually inaccurate beliefs. 

(1)  Berke lost the jury and even the biased, over-his-head judge told him he was giving them too much information.

(2) The lawyers prosecuting the case were prosecutors from the Philadelphia office.  Not fans of them, either.

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On 9/7/2020 at 11:50 AM, VKurtB said:

Nobody responsible ever suggested the 1933DE’s were “stolen, stolen”, in the usual sense of the word, just “swapped out for ordinary coins”.

The Mint's presentation at the ANA and their court sumnations kept using the phrase "stolen" -- not swapped -- as in taken.

Clearly, Izzy Switt broke into the Mint and 7-year old Joan Langbord used her small size to squeeze into the cashier's cage or Vault F and grab the coins.  They wanted to go on the lam, but instead fenced the goods.xD

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20 hours ago, RWB said:

Public visits to the Philadelphia and San Francisco Mints were extremely popular. Until suspended in 1923, they were in the "must see" list. 

Why suspended in 1923 ?  When resumed -- 1930's ?

Were the tours ended because of violence related to the Palmer Raids and anarchist attacks ?

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“On the lam”??? When will we be working “beat it, kid“ into the conversation? xD Scram, see?

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7 hours ago, VKurtB said:

“On the lam”??? When will we be working “beat it, kid“ into the conversation? xD Scram, see?

I personally like "took a powder," but it would depend on when the coins were discovered missing. Anybody know what date was on that double-eagle the governor of Kentucky was permitted to hold during treasury secretary Mnuchin's visit to Ft. Knox a few years ago?

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12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why suspended in 1923 ?  When resumed -- 1930's ?

Were the tours ended because of violence related to the Palmer Raids and anarchist attacks ?

The sudden death of Louis Comparette, Curator of the Philadelphia Mint's collection in June 1922, followed by the December 18, 1922 armored car robbery outside the Denver Mint, prompted closure of all the mints to visitors. Secretary of the Treasury, Andrew W. Mellon suggested transfer of the Philadelphia Mint’s numismatic collection to Washington in a letter to Charles D. Walcott, Secretary of the Smithsonian, on February 8, 1923:

“It has recently been deemed advisable in the interest of safety to close the United States Mints to visitors. As you are aware, there is a large numismatic collection in the Mint at Philadelphia. Since the Mint is to be permanently closed to visitors the inspection of the collection by the public is no longer possible. There is an important and very beautiful selection of coins, tokens and medals, perhaps the largest and most complete numismatic collection owned by the Government. The logical place for this collection would seem to be in the National Museum in Washington, and I am writing to ask if you would consider it feasible to have the collection transferred there. In case you consider the undertaking favorably may I suggest that you designate a representative of the National Museum to inspect the collection in order that you may be advised as to its scope and importance, and as to other details involved in the proposed transfer.

“The Curator of the Mint at Philadelphia died several months ago, but we have made no special effort to fill the position for the reason that the removal of the collection to Washington has been tentatively considered for some time.

“The collection is under the jurisdiction of the Director of the Mint, and I shall be glad to instruct that officer to place before you all available information in regard to it. I am enclosing a Catalogue of the coins, tokens and medals which may be of interest to you in considering the proposed transfer of the collection from the Mint to the National Museum.”

Formal acceptance by the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution followed on February 19, 1923.

Public visits resumed in 1932 (if I recall correctly) but were suspended during WW-II.

Edited by RWB
Fix formatting - as usual
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18 minutes ago, RWB said:

The sudden death of Louis Comparette, Curator of the Philadelphia Mint's collection in June 1922, followed by the December 18, 1922 armored car robbery outside the Denver Mint, prompted closure of all the mints to visitors. Secretary of the Treasury, Andrew W. Mellon suggested transfer of the Philadelphia Mint’s numismatic collection to Washington in a letter to Charles D. Walcott, Secretary of the Smithsonian, on February 8, 1923:

“It has recently been deemed advisable in the interest of safety to close the United States Mints to visitors. As you are aware, there is a large numismatic collection in the Mint at Philadelphia. Since the Mint is to be permanently closed to visitors the inspection of the collection by the public is no longer possible. There is an important and very beautiful selection of coins, tokens and medals, perhaps the largest and most complete numismatic collection owned by the Government. The logical place for this collection would seem to be in the National Museum in Washington, and I am writing to ask if you would consider it feasible to have the collection transferred there. In case you consider the undertaking favorably may I suggest that you designate a representative of the National Museum to inspect the collection in order that you may be advised as to its scope and importance, and as to other details involved in the proposed transfer.

“The Curator of the Mint at Philadelphia died several months ago, but we have made no special effort to fill the position for the reason that the removal of the collection to Washington has been tentatively considered for some time.

“The collection is under the jurisdiction of the Director of the Mint, and I shall be glad to instruct that officer to place before you all available information in regard to it. I am enclosing a Catalogue of the coins, tokens and medals which may be of interest to you in considering the proposed transfer of the collection from the Mint to the National Museum.”

Formal acceptance by the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution followed on February 19, 1923.

Public visits resumed in 1932 (if I recall correctly) but were suspended during WW-II.

The Smithsonian thing was literally “so let it be written, so let it be done.” xD

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Roger, do you have more of the Treasury orders for Saints similar to that for the 1932's ?  Very interesting to deduce that only about 175 coins reached the public.  I wonder if more hit the public during The Roaring Twenties between a better economy and more numismatic interest away from The Depression.

That was a really fascinating section, great job !

 

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14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, do you have more of the Treasury orders for Saints similar to that for the 1932's ?  Very interesting to deduce that only about 175 coins reached the public.  I wonder if more hit the public during The Roaring Twenties between a better economy and more numismatic interest away from The Depression.

That was a really fascinating section, great job !

 

All that I could locate are in the book. More likely exist someplace in the US Treasurer's files, but it would require a file-by-file search.

Edited by RWB
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On 9/11/2020 at 1:38 PM, RWB said:

All that I could locate are in the book. More likely exist someplace in the US Treasurer's files, but it would require a file-by-file search.

You mean using that Newman Portal ?

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On 9/9/2020 at 10:22 AM, RWB said:

The sudden death of Louis Comparette, Curator of the Philadelphia Mint's collection in June 1922, followed by the December 18, 1922 armored car robbery outside the Denver Mint, prompted closure of all the mints to visitors.

FYI, for those who didn't read the book, Louis Comparette is mentioned numerous times as helping some museums and individuals get some of the Saints "hot off the press."

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On 9/8/2020 at 1:49 AM, RWB said:

Gold dealers were routine visitors to the Mints, both before and after the anti-hoarding orders. Mints were where the depositor could get a fair assay and immediate payment.

Israel Switt reportedly went to the Philadelphia Mint daily or almost daily.  The employees there gave his daughter Joan free shiny coins.  30 years later, he was able to take his grandsons on VIP tours.

Clearly, the political appointees and higher-ups at the Mint and Treasury may not have liked him, but the day-to-day people there had no problem with him.  If they had, he would have been banned from the Mint or at least not had VIP access and treatment for decades.

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6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You mean using that Newman Portal ?

No. Almost none of the sources are on NNP, and many extend into knowledge areas not covered by NNP's limited database.

As for Mr. Switt. I would not call him a "VIP" by any sense of the word. For the cashier to exchange a visitor's coins for some new ones was not unusual, and tours were commonplace. (I've never read of any special tour or access for Mr. Switt.) Shiny new coins were almost always used in mint employee pay envelopes. (It was the appearance of circulated coins in pay envelopes that tipped off officials to thefts by McCann and Rumpp in 1940. Gold dealers were a routine presence at the Philadelphia Mint, and Mr. Switt was one of them.

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However expropriated, whether by hook or crook, would the OP, author, or any other viewer, care to speculate as to the possible motive behind effecting a transfer of goods Izzy Switt (or co-conspirator or confederate) knew, or should have known, he could not profit from, personally, in the ordinary sense of the word?  

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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

However expropriated, whether by hook or crook, would the OP, author, or any other viewer, care to speculate as to the possible motive behind effecting a transfer of goods Izzy Switt (or co-conspirator or confederate) knew, or should have known, he could not profit from, personally, in the ordinary sense of the word?  

At the time, the few collectors of large gold coins knew there were dates/mints made which they did not have in their collections. That information was easily known by anyone who cared. Buying gold coins was close to a no-loss speculation - much like buying bags of silver dollars in 1963 for face value.

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1 hour ago, RWB said:

At the time, the few collectors of large gold coins knew there were dates/mints made which they did not have in their collections. That information was easily known by anyone who cared. Buying gold coins was close to a no-loss speculation - much like buying bags of silver dollars in 1963 for face value.

Yup....I believe the 1907 HR's were selling for $30-$35 immediately for those who wanted mint conditioned coins without waiting line, through the mails, etc.  Same thing for buying the later, non-High Relief dates.  You could flip it right away for $25-$30.

Philadelphia and NYC wealthy collectors would often employ "runners" to get them the coins or other specialty novelties.

I suspect that once there was talk about --1930 or 1931 (BOE devalued the pound that year) -- that the U.S. might leave the gold standard, wise dealers realized that either the price of the underlying metal would rise and/or actual mintage of Double Eagles and Eagles might cease since very little was in circulation.

Good analogy with the 1963 silver dollars ! xD

 

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7 hours ago, Ross J said:

Re: Roger's Book. 

My talk on Saint Gaudens die varieties given Aug 30th for the NNP Symposium is now posted on their website: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/588179

Hoping Roger's book flies off the shelves at heritage!

It was a nice presentation. Well worth watching.

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1 hour ago, Cat Bath said:

Won't play for me...Any chance it will ever be on UTube?

I do not see it lists at the moment. Maybe there was a problem with it and it will reappear later today.

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11 hours ago, Ross J said:

Re: Roger's Book. 

My talk on Saint Gaudens die varieties given Aug 30th for the NNP Symposium is now posted on their website: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/588179

Hoping Roger's book flies off the shelves at heritage!

This is an extremely well done and valuable contribution not only for collectors of Saint-Gaudens double eagles, but the principles apply to others as well.

Kudos to Mr. Ross and to NNP for creating and sponsoring the presentation.

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Hey Ross,

I might have one for you. Looks like something funky is going on with my 16-S (maybe like your 24)

Click the pic for enlargement & look at the dress & hair on her left.

I was thinking it was just machine doubling.

1916-S.thumb.jpg.f6d0afc5b89aef55f6f6a9c467d69bef.jpg

Great presentation on varieties BTW.(thumbsu

Edited by Cat Bath
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These details might help a little. My files have only pieces similar to the left photo.

1208-4315 detail comp.jpg

Edited by RWB
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On 9/23/2020 at 9:49 AM, Cat Bath said:

Hey Ross,

I might have one for you. Looks like something funky is going on with my 16-S (maybe like your 24)

Click the pic for enlargement & look at the dress & hair on her left.

I was thinking it was just machine doubling.

1916-S.thumb.jpg.f6d0afc5b89aef55f6f6a9c467d69bef.jpg

Great presentation on varieties BTW.(thumbsu

You are getting hooked!  It is hard to tell from photo's, particularly if there is not a known example (or image) to compare it too.  But someone has to find the first one!  I live close enough to go to the 3 yearly Whitman Baltimore shows by car (which NGC always attends), so I have usually been able to show things to Dave Lange in person. 

It does seem to be the case that certain different doubled dies associated with specific areas of the dies appear repeatedly.  We see this with 22, 26, & 28 doubling near the date for example.  Slight beak doubling on the reverse also seems to show up on different dates.  Does the 1924 DDO have a 1916 S clone?  Wouldn't surprise me.

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Visibility of die doubling or tripling depends on the blow during which the doubling occurred, and any rotation between strikes. Assuming at least 5 blows to bring up a new die, anything out of alignment for the first through third strike should be obliterated by the last two. This is particularly true for the central details -- which seem to be the crux of CatBath's observation. But, this is largely a new area of investigation - I suspect the occurrence of die varieties is similar in proportion to Peace dollars.

Of course, Ross will be consulted before any updated book edition is prepared. (Years down the road....)

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[Letter of President Theodore Roosevelt to Secretary of the Treasury Leslie M. Shaw, Dec. 27, 1904]

White House, Washington

"My dear Secretary Shaw:

I think our coinage is artistically of atrocious hideousness. (emphasis mine)

Would it be possible, without asking the permission of Congress, to employ a man like St. Gaudens to give us a coinage that would have some beauty?

Sincerely yours,

Theodore Roosevelt"

(ref:  RWB, in Jan. 9, 2012 issue of Coin World, and book under discussion in this thread by Goldfinger1969)

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