JKK

Your thinking is correct.

Heh, sorry about that. Sometimes we go too deep with our own jargon. Good luck with your coin.

Heh, sorry about that. Sometimes we go too deep with our own jargon. Good luck with your coin.

Presuming it is certified authentic, worn examples seen to retail in the neighborhood of US$600-650. Right now the gold in it is worth a little over US$400. I would not expect a dealer to pay more than that for a number of reasons, starting with the reality that gold sucks for dealers. People bringing it in expect to be kissed up to, and are distressed to find that the dealer doesn't want it very badly and won't pay much of a premium; might even be less than bullion. And if the dealer buys it, his customers also suck. They expect to be kissed up to--doesn't he realize they are Buying Gold With Big Bucks? and are shocked to find that asking for a 10% discount is in the realm of Not Happening, because the dealer is lucky to net $20 on a piece like this, which is well below the usual profitability threshold. It just isn't usually very good business for most of them and that has partly to do with the market and partly the customer base.
So in your case, if the dealer can get it for $400, that will work out for him but probably not for you. If you want notably more than that, he'll probably decline because it's often not a very good way to tie up numismatic capital. And that is exacerbated by the fluctuations of price, meaning that he might find himself with a piece he can only get $400 for by the time someone buys it. And thinks he should get $50 off, because, doesn't this dealer realize I Am Buying Gold With Big Bucks? It's fraught.
If it were me, I'd see about sending it in for grading and then auctioning it myself on Ebenezer. You'd get more money, probably, and the dealers and you would be happier. My guess it it comes back VF details, cleaned, which at least will give a buyer reason to be confident it's authentic (big problem on Ebenezer).

Presuming it is certified authentic, worn examples seen to retail in the neighborhood of US$600-650. Right now the gold in it is worth a little over US$400. I would not expect a dealer to pay more than that for a number of reasons, starting with the reality that gold sucks for dealers. People bringing it in expect to be kissed up to, and are distressed to find that the dealer doesn't want it very badly and won't pay much of a premium; might even be less than bullion. And if the dealer buys it, his customers also suck. They expect to be kissed up to--doesn't he realize they are Buying Gold With Big Bucks? and are shocked to find that asking for a 10% discount is in the realm of Not Happening, because the dealer is lucky to net $20 on a piece like this, which is well below the usual profitability threshold. It just isn't usually very good business for most of them and that has partly to do with the market and partly the customer base.
So in your case, if the dealer can get it for $400, that will work out for him but probably not for you. If you want notably more than that, he'll probably decline because it's often not a very good way to tie up numismatic capital. And that is exacerbated by the fluctuations of price, meaning that he might find himself with a piece he can only get $400 for by the time someone buys it. And thinks he should get $50 off, because, doesn't this dealer realize I Am Buying Gold With Big Bucks? It's fraught.
If it were me, I'd see about sending it in for grading and then auctioning it myself on Ebenezer. You'd get more money, probably, and the dealers and you would be happier. My guess it it comes back VF details, cleaned, which at least will give a buyer reason to be confident it's authentic (big problem on Ebenezer).

I think they indicate that a counterfeiter wants helpful feedback in order to produce better fakes.

I think it's amusing that (evidently) my somewhat tongue-in-cheek reference term for Everyone's Numismatic Grandpa has now taken on a life and gets tacked onto an actual set.

I think this is a faking operation getting feedback (or trying).

Good. The less help we give counterfeiting operations, the better.

I think this is a faking operation getting feedback (or trying).

Good. The less help we give counterfeiting operations, the better.

I think they indicate that a counterfeiter wants helpful feedback in order to produce better fakes.

I have a feeling that what we have here is a serial counterfeit operation seeking feedback. That's two that are so obvious it's like they are beta versions. I think we have helped them far too much already.

There's no reason anyone would be rough on you. You included good photos of both sides, told us what you knew, and asked a question. Rough is reserved for persons_of_minimal_evident_cognitive_capacity. Or for those who just want us to confirm their preconceived notions, and thus get mad when we tell them their coin got that way in a parking lot and is worth face value.

That last is something this lacks, because strictly speaking, I think this is a token or medallion rather than a coin. (No one expects you to have known that because, frankly, it's an esoteric and fussy distinction.) I found one in a group of three on an auction site, the three supposedly valued at HK$1000-1500. I have my doubts. On the other hand, I didn't find it on Numista. Maybe it's rare. The venue was renovated in 1996 so that's probably the reason for the issue. Given the scarcity of references, it is probably a very limited issue (maybe hundreds, maybe thousands) but with limited demand in English-language sources that I can search. Given the number of Hong Kong folks who have emigrated to western North America, I wouldn't die of shock to see one turn up here in Portland (Vancouver BC more probably), but there aren't that many.

When you post a question about a coin or coins, it's worth remembering that the people giving you answers--unless it is specifically about an NGC policy matter or submission--are volunteer hobbyists who do this for fun. They are not speaking for NGC; they speak only for themselves, and they want to help people. When you do a good job of posting your inquiry, you increase your chances of helpful replies, because you show respect for the volunteers' time.
Please do:
Ask a question, or multiple questions. We need to know what to focus on. Authenticity? Grade? Identification? Value? All of these? Think about your questions. "What would this grade at NGC?" and "What grade would you give this coin?" are two very different questions. If you ask the first one, only people who know a lot about NGC's ways have much to offer you. "How much is this worth?" is another nebulous question. Better: "What would a dealer pay me for this?" Or: "What would a dealer sell this for?" Post clear photos of the entire obverse, reverse, and if necessary the edge. If need be, add zoomed photos of specific features, but always clear shots of both full sides. Post all pictures of a given coin in the same thread. Accept that if you have photographic limitations, and you keep posting badly photographed coins, you'll keep being told they're not good enough to use to answer your question. You can't expect everyone to read all your threads and know your circumstances, be they poverty or Parkinson's or can'tbebothereditis. It's not their fault your photos can't or won't get better, even if it is also not always your own fault. Use a thread title that describes the coin(s), so that people who know the subject matter are likelier to read the thread. If you just inherited Bampaw's silver dollar collection which you can see spans the period 1850-1921, you could title it "Evaluating silver dollar collection 1850-1921." People who know a lot about those silver dollars will see it and be likely to help you. "Grading advice" is bad; everyone wants grading advice. "Morgan dollar grading advice" is good. "Is this fake?" is bad. "Is this Chinese silver coin fake?" is good. Post only once per coin. (If you have received a huge collection, and you want to start with a picture of the whole hoard with zoomed shots of parts, that's no problem. This guideline is intended to keep people from slamming multiple fully photographed coins into a single thread, making it difficult to figure out which one the answers are talking about. So if it's a hoard, and you single out some for close scrutiny, go with new threads for each of those.) If the picture files are too large in terms of data, learn to make them smaller without losing necessary information. Paint.net is a free image editor for Windows. Open your pictures in it, crop them, and save them as .jpgs. Look at what sizes they are now. This is too easy. If there is any question of identification or authentication, include weight in grams and diameter in millimeters. If you don't know the metric system, use an online converter. Weight is one of the key diagnostics of authenticity and unless the coin is too obviously bogus to bother, you will be asked for it. Just include it with your first post. Tell us what you know, or what you believe to be the case, about the coin. It's okay to be incorrect. Understand that the term "melt" does not automatically mean someone plans to melt the coin down, nor is anyone suggesting you should. It refers simply to the value of the metal for its own sake. Do not freak out when someone says "melt" about Bampaw's Morgan dollars. We really do not want or expect you to throw it in a blast furnace, all right? Use punctuation. Being easy to read works to your benefit. When you write a twelve-line paragraph with no periods or commas, people tune you out. For those who need reminders, this , is a comma. You use it to separate phrases, more or less. This . is a period. You use it to end most sentences. Hitting Enter will insert a paragraph break. You use this between series of thoughts. Live them. Love them. Use them. because ill tell u what really suxors is when some1 posts sententses like this 1 4 about half a page its impossibel 2 read and some people including me will prob not finish readin it which means u arent gettin as many respontses think about it ur only hurtin ur own cozz notice how stooped this reads ur in affect makin urself ten times harder 2 help and frankly its disrespectfull 2 assume entellegent people should do all that extra work 4 ur sake now kinely clean up ur act and rite like u at least got thru 6ixth grade im glad we had this little talk Come prepared to accept responsive answers. Brace yourself to learn that Bampaw or Opa, always considered the family's Great Numismatist, may not have been so great at this. No one seeks to offend your relative's legacy, but the coin must be called what it is. Be patient. No one who doesn't know the answer is going to post "I don't know." It can take days to a week for someone to notice. Remember that some inquiries may require research, for which volunteers are not being paid, and are doing as they have time. Expect that opinions may vary, even among experienced numismatists. Realize that if you're rude and/or difficult, your problem is not the people who take time to fight with you. Your problem is the people who, without a word, mark you down as someone not to bother with in the future--because you have no idea who or how many they are, and thus have no power to alleviate that diagnosis. Kindly do not:
Just post pictures without giving any indication of what you want to learn. Post glare-obscured, blurry, or otherwise poor photos. Post only partial pictures of errors or damage. Complain that your pics are too big to post. Use an image editor to crop and save them as .jpgs. Get defensive when told your pics are not good. Maybe you're bad at photography; maybe you don't have a good camera; maybe the photography gods just don't like you. If you can do better, do so. If you cannot do better, than just accept that this limits how much we can help you. Post a new thread for every photo of the same coin. Post new threads in the same forum, or other forums, with reference to the same coin. Once suffices. The shotgun approach makes one look impatient and immature. Use a meaningless thread title like "looking for advice" or "no idea what 2 do" or "plz help." Those tell people nothing about the discussion except that it was begun by someone who picks meaningless thread titles. Omit weight and diameter, unless they are completely irrelevant to your question. Get annoyed if you don't like the answers. If you disagree with them, fine; act on your views. Ask us to tell you how we know it's a counterfeit. While that's a legit question on its face, the problem is that even if you didn't mint the fake, those who make them are always looking for ways to improve. We frown upon supplying helpful feedback to criminals, and so should you. So no, don't ask us that. And if we tell you politely that we aren't going into detail, don't get annoyed because you don't like that answer. Grouse about not getting any replies. No one knows everything; no one has unlimited time; sometimes no one knows the answer. Come in telling how many Youtube videos you have watched about coins. This will lower your credibility. Use Photobucket links. If you do, don't anticipate that people will use them. Photobucket has been connected with numerous malware and virus infections. Spell 'nickel' as 'nickle.' Whether referring to the element or the five-cent coin, this misspelling is a very bad look. If you take the time to do this correctly, you can learn a lot more here than if you skip important steps.
If you do not take the time to do this correctly, some posters may decide that their time is better spent helping other people.
Lastly, here is a Cliff's Notes version that would take care of 95% of the most common disappointed inquiries. If you want to post yours anyway, fine, but just please kindly do not engage in a protracted and dullard debate when you are told that:
Your 1804 silver dollar is a bad counterfeit. Look up authentic examples and compare closely. Your 1776 Continental dollar is a bad counterfeit or a souvenir replica. Many were churned out. What you think is a double die is almost surely mechanical doubling, which carries no premium. What you think is a mint error is likely post-mint damage, and your coin is worth face value. Your "silver" non-1943 penny is plated, replated, has had the plating come off, is altered, or somesuch. Your "bronze" 1943 penny is altered somehow, and is worth very little. Your Greek "silver" coin with flanges sticking out of its edges is a bad cast counterfeit. Your cheesy-looking brass token is not gold, and is not a coin. Any clown can mint brass tokens with bad designs. Cleaning your coins is a stupid idea. Yes, even for you. You, too. If you ask how, listen to the people who tell you not to do so. If you cite Etsy as an authority, people will laugh their heads off with good reason. This is horrible for your cred. If you cite a Youtube video as an authority, people will laugh with good reason. This is bad for your cred. If you have more than three supposed error coins you found in change, and plan to post them all, the odds are overwhelming that none of them are mint errors worthy of note. If you keep posting these without seeming to learn, people might conclude that learning is not your thing. There, that rounds up the usual suspects. I'm not saying those answers are automatically always right. However, as the strongest probabilities, they should be presumed correct unless they can be proven wrong. If you have one child and something is broken in the house, not by you or your spouse, typically the child did it. If you can prove the kid innocent, fair enough; but you know the kid almost surely did it. If you argue about a "double die" at fatuous length when it's clear you don't know what one really is, you will look like the kid with soot all over him insisting he didn't really dig around in the fireplace.
Don't be that kid.
===
Opinions, comments, additions, suggestions?

هذا هو المكان الذي يبيع فيه الناس العملات المعدنية.ثم يجب عليك نشر هذا في منتدى المستخدم الجديد. 

I think it's amusing that (evidently) my somewhat tongue-in-cheek reference term for Everyone's Numismatic Grandpa has now taken on a life and gets tacked onto an actual set.

There's no reason anyone would be rough on you. You included good photos of both sides, told us what you knew, and asked a question. Rough is reserved for persons_of_minimal_evident_cognitive_capacity. Or for those who just want us to confirm their preconceived notions, and thus get mad when we tell them their coin got that way in a parking lot and is worth face value.

That last is something this lacks, because strictly speaking, I think this is a token or medallion rather than a coin. (No one expects you to have known that because, frankly, it's an esoteric and fussy distinction.) I found one in a group of three on an auction site, the three supposedly valued at HK$1000-1500. I have my doubts. On the other hand, I didn't find it on Numista. Maybe it's rare. The venue was renovated in 1996 so that's probably the reason for the issue. Given the scarcity of references, it is probably a very limited issue (maybe hundreds, maybe thousands) but with limited demand in English-language sources that I can search. Given the number of Hong Kong folks who have emigrated to western North America, I wouldn't die of shock to see one turn up here in Portland (Vancouver BC more probably), but there aren't that many.

Not sure how it is where you're at, but my experience in three different places has been that once the dealer knows you as a regular, and that you consistently pay with something other than a credit card (the fee can really cut into their margins, especially on stuff near melt), you are likely to start getting better deals.
How those relate to the red book, I don't know. Dirty secret: I've never owned one. But I do get Coin World magazine, and I find its values to be on the high side. So if that's what the dealer is charging, on my first visit or two, I might pay that, and might make sure I always bought at least something, just to establish some optimism on the dealer's part. But then if I came on a bigger shopping trip, I might ask if there were anything s/he could do for me, and see what the dealer said. I typically get about 20% off the marked prices with established dealer relationships. Of course, if even one time we negotiated that, having not talked about payment methods, and then I stupidly whipped out the plastic, that'd be a major step backward in the relationship because by then the dealer has come to make certain assumptions about my intentions, and it's up to me to keep demonstrating that I'm good business (and should therefore continue to get good deals).
A lot of finding a great dealer is learning the fine art of being a good customer. At my dealer back in Kennewick, one day they were slammed and I sort of stepped up to help a lady and her teen daughter, who were interested in the same world coins book I was looking at. I went through it and told them some specifics about pieces, including a 1787 Connecticut copper that they really liked. I ended up basically selling them about $100 worth of coins (and they paid retail). They were very happy. The dealer didn't say anything, but I also had my own haul. Most of it was silver and had not been repriced for some time (Ag having gone up quite a bit). Without a word, the dealer rang it all up at the marked prices, rather than at the 20% higher he could have legitimately asked. I understood exactly what had happened. The savings were, in effect, a commission--a nice thank-you. When the dealer likes having you around, lots of good things can come your way.

Then send it in. Highly qualified people have told you it's nothing special, and if you argue with them, you are in effect admitting they're right. If you were really certain they were wrong, you wouldn't waste your time.
Thus, if you are really certain they are wrong, nothing is gained from trying to convince them. You should stop arguing and submit it for grading so the TPG can confirm your perceptions, then post it here and scoff at your doubters. I'm sure the TPG will supply sharper photos so that you can show everyone here exactly what they were missing due to photographic weaknesses.

Then send it in. Highly qualified people have told you it's nothing special, and if you argue with them, you are in effect admitting they're right. If you were really certain they were wrong, you wouldn't waste your time.
Thus, if you are really certain they are wrong, nothing is gained from trying to convince them. You should stop arguing and submit it for grading so the TPG can confirm your perceptions, then post it here and scoff at your doubters. I'm sure the TPG will supply sharper photos so that you can show everyone here exactly what they were missing due to photographic weaknesses.

It would seem that the experts saw something about the coin that escaped you. Most cleaning is improper, so the slight distinction there is not as big as it sounds. Since we can't see it, we can't go very far in guessing what they saw, but it might have been buffing on the surface. Could also have been dipping residue. What usually tips me off to cleaning is not scratching or residue, but color. Most rough cleaning will impart a very unnatural color to the coin, or a very unnatural surface in some other way.
A cleaned coin in a slab is still an uncirculated coin proven genuine. While your results will vary, my general outlook is that cleaning knocks the value down a grade's worth; a bad cleaning, maybe two. For example, a Merc that is blast white and brightly shiny but has G-4 details? Well, it doesn't have that far to fall, but if it were a somewhat uncommon issue, it might value like an AG-3. There are many views on this and that's just how my experience and dealer conversations have gone. I used to have a local dealer who was highly scrupulous about marking coins as cleaned. An Unc Cleaned coin tended to sell for AU money--sometimes EF money.
In one area, at least, you paid tuition to learn a valuable lesson: if the coin is an investment, buy it already slabbed. If the idea is that you will buy them raw and then improve their overall value through careful selection and certification, then it is time for you to become expert in assessing cleaning. There are several ways you could do that.

We try to get people to read past posts, but not very hard. For one thing, every coin (or fake coin) is unique on some level, and most of the newbie posts are "I found this Rare Valuable [parking lot] Coin in my change and was wondering if I can now retire?" While they typically can't, we need to see the coin, and that means a thread and posted pics and some patient responses. This also applies to 1776 Continental Dollars, replated Lincolns, and other categories full of cattle's_solid_wastes. Yeah, we could tell them to please look at all the hideous fakes and replicas we've seen over the years, but in the end, there's nothing definitive but for knowledgeable people to look at the coin.

That's not to say that we don't gain respect for people who show that they have done a little reading. It makes a lot more sense than the persons_with_braincases_of_bone_matter who post sale items outside the clearly marked marketplace, or who post piles of semi-readable more_bovine_solid_wastes trying to tell us how smart and clever they are and why we're therefore all chowderheads and "playa hatahs." (All lies. I like the beach.) I know that I react differently when someone says:
"Hello. After looking over the forum and searching a little, I'm almost sure this example of a 1776 Continental Dollar is phony. Can you please confirm this for me?"
Than:
"wussup peepz my bampaw left me this rare 1976 contenental dollar i wanna no what its worth there very rare i no that also dont be a playa hatah i was muged on my way to ur 4um and bad peepz stole my speling ability and all my punktuation so its not my fault if this is hard to read then again nothin in my world is ever my fault cuz thats just how i roll now ima post this 4 times here and in sum other 4ums on account of i think this improves chances u peepz will help the n00b oction it so i can retire 2 a condom minimum"
And no, none of that is meant to imply anything at all about ethnic background. This garbage transcends all backgrounds. Stoopid and selfish are universal constants.

CB's right. To amplify, a die state is the phase of its working life that we can see in the coin's details. For example, I have a 1794 cent that has a crack through the 4. It is middle die state; early die state would be when the die was new, and late die state was probably near its point of failure. Concentric cracking around the lettering on 1800s dies is by no means uncommon. I'm not sure whether there is a book on all the die states of all the cracks, or if anyone would bother since most of them don't add much of a premium.

Which I'm fine with as long as they either accept the answer or shut up and submit it. If you (general you, not specifically you) really think you have a genuine 1804 silver dollar, you will hand carry it to the grading service and pay whatever it takes to get it slabbed. If you do not do that, we know that even you don't really believe the story, and are just trying to get people to bless your preconceived notions. That's the point at which I just drop the Ignore hammer. For me, Ignore is my cue to never again waste time on that person. Everyone insufficiently_cognitive gets put on it, not because I won't read their posts, but to remind me never to give them my time. Cast not one's pearls before swine.